Author Topic: The Heart Ache of the Old 44 Mag (Read 2079 times)

varmint917v · « **on:** October 23, 2007, 04:20:20 AM »

I have an older barrel 44 mag on its way to me and am very excited to see what all the fuss is about as far as accuracy goes. I was thinking that we could compile a bunch of info on this thread that people with first hand accounts have had with the older 44 mag barrel and maybe get some idea of common problems.

I have already ordered dies, 270 grain Speer Gold Dots, 240 Mag Tech Soft points, 100 Brass. For powder I am going to use either H110, or Hercules 2400. These are slower burning powders and they should give me some very decent fps using the rifle barrel. Undecided on what primers I am going to use.

The gun will be setup with either a red dot scope or a 3-9x40 Bushnell Banner. Since this is a very short range rifle I think that the red dot will be enough. I would like to get this gun shooting 3" or better at 100 yards and its going to be my deer gun this year.

I look forward to seeing what everyone has dealt with using there 44 mag. I will be going to the range next Wed to start the testing with the different loads and whatever else I can think of.

EVOC ONE · « **Reply #1 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:42:44 AM »

The older .44 Mag barrels were over-bore to the point where accuracy was affected with factory .429 bullets. Some reported acceptable accuracy with jacketed bullets, but they were the minority.

Those that used cast bullets near or at bore diameter reported decent accuracy.

The newer .44 barrels seem to be coming in at .429 - .430 and accuracy at 100 yards has been better than 3".

Keep us posted on your results. One never knows when he will come across a older .44 for a good price.

varmint917v · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:45:04 AM »

I guess I will have to add some .430 bullets to the mix if the .429 bullets do not work.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2007, 05:31:41 AM »

Slug the bore first, then you'll know what it needs, if it's overbore, try some .432" cast bullets and save yourself some money, time and frustration.

But if the barrel is an even older Shikari barrel with ballard rifling, you'll be real happy with .429" bulets.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,66563.msg404552.html#msg404552

http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinSlug.htm

varmint917v · « **Reply #4 on:** October 23, 2007, 08:51:15 AM »

how big of a over bore would I need to get the .432 bullets?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:03:43 AM »

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook recommends cast bullets that are .001"-.002" over groove diameter for best accuracy.

I don't have a 44mag barrel yet, 6 weeks and counting so far since they got my order, but I do have a .444" barrel, I've shot .432" Beartooth bullets in it which are .0015" over the groove depth, accuracy is superb with their 355gr bullets.

Tim

varmint917v · « **Reply #6 on:** October 23, 2007, 10:12:37 AM »

thanks and thats some nice shooting. Will a cast bullet expand? I have never used any im thinking that if its soft lead it will mushroom and if its hard lead it will just punch through.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #7 on:** October 23, 2007, 12:23:24 PM »

Most of us that use's the old 44 mag barrel got 1 1/2" at 100 yds with a max load of H110 and the 300 gr. XTP's seated in the 2 nd. channelure. Even the .432" bore barrels shot them well enough for deer hunting. Digger

varmint917v · « **Reply #8 on:** October 23, 2007, 01:34:17 PM »

I didn't order any 300gr xtp's because I thought that they were a touch over kill but if I can't get what I have working well I will have to order some.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** October 23, 2007, 01:40:53 PM »

Quote from: varmint917v on October 23, 2007, 10:12:37 AM

Will a cast bullet expand? I have never used any im thinking that if its soft lead it will mushroom and if its hard lead it will just punch through.

Hard cast bullets with a large meplat(flat frontal area) are very effective without expanding.

Tim

varmint917v · « **Reply #10 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:08:36 AM »

one more quick question. Since I am not loading these 44 bullets for a semi auto do I have to use the cannulure as a point for the crimp or can I load them with no crimp and set them to the length that works best?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:32:54 AM »

Sure, as long as there's sufficient neck tension and bullet pull for the load you're shooting.

Tim

Ireload2 · « **Reply #12 on:** October 24, 2007, 06:43:35 AM »

I will add my 2 cents worth.
This experience comes from a Remington 788 in 44 Mag with 38" twist and a Contender Carbine barrel with 20" inch twist.
The jacketed 180 and 240 grain Sierras and the Speer and Nosler 200 grain bullets were very accurate with top loads of H110.
I later read a forum post from one of the Hodgdon sons that H110 and Winchester 296 are the same powder.

Low velocity cast loads (900 fps) with the Remington shot poorly (keyholes with 250 Keith bullets) while the Contender shot much better with the same loads. Just the twist difference.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #13 on:** October 24, 2007, 08:52:27 AM »

Does anyone have any more info on H110 and Winchester 296 being the same powder?....<><....

varmint917v · « **Reply #14 on:** October 24, 2007, 02:49:08 PM »

I have read that but it was not a first hand account so I don't know for sure it makes sense though. Once company makes the powder and then they sell there powder to the different companies that market to the end consumer. Below is a link to an article I found on the subject

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_50/ai_n6180926

varmint917v · « **Reply #15 on:** October 25, 2007, 11:01:42 AM »

I am in the middle of researching some load data for 296 and H110 and for a lot of the load data for the 296 powder it says to use a magnum primer should I get magnum primers for either one of these powders?

Update on my situation as of today.
I have received everything I need to reload for the 44. I am still waiting on the barrel and I am going to pick up the powder and primers on Saturday. I might be able to get some loading and shooting in on Sunday if it is nice out if not I have to wait until the range opens up on Wed. Pictures are coming soon.

varmint917v · « **Reply #16 on:** October 28, 2007, 04:23:12 PM »

Today I started loading for the 44 and unfortunately I had to use HS-7 instead of H110. No shop in town had the H110 and I wasn't going to wait to get to shoot so I went with the HS-7. I decided that 1.775" was a good length to start with and once I find a good load I will see what adjusting the length will do. I do not think I can go much longer then what they are loaded now.

I have not yet decided on what I am going to use for a sight so I just took the scope rail off and used the iron sights. When I first shot this gun I was amazed that it has almost no muzzle raise. I have the tamer stock on it and it has no recoil pad and with just a t shirt on I was feeling it after I got the 270 grain bullets worked up to some semi hot loads.

I shot two groups from 25 yards from a prone position with no sand bags just more for the fun of shooting then anything. The first two shots of both groups were within 1/4" of each other and the third shot got pulled both times. I think this is going to be a shooter. I have done no work on the gun at all the barrel locked up great and there is no gap at the breach.

Wednesday I will put up pictures of my groups when I get to the range and see how well I can get this thing going. For now here is a picture of the gun the 410 tammer stock holds the 44 cartridges perfect.

burntmuch · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2007, 06:09:22 PM »

Looks good .Handi little set up

bluebayou · « **Reply #18 on:** October 28, 2007, 07:22:34 PM »

For what it is worth, my 44 barrel was from 3 years ago. Slugged it at .432. I shot 300gr XTP's out of it at 2-3 inch groups. It was "okay". But I figured that there was no point in loading expensive Beartooth 432's in a rifle that shoots pistol ammo. My whole raison d'firearm was to shoot cheaper pistol ammo, handloaded or not.

I sold it.

I believe that Digger reamed his to 445 and the bullets perform better under higher pressure (everyone's favorite word here--"obduration")

H4227 was very dirty and/or left a lot of soot and unburned powder even with heavy crimp and higher charges. Was going to try H110 but ran out of patience.

varmint917v · « **Reply #19 on:** October 29, 2007, 05:09:23 AM »

Is the only difference between the 44 mag and the 445 supermag the length of the case? Does anyone have any good articles on the 445 supermag or any load data?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** October 29, 2007, 05:30:22 AM »

The Supermag is just a bit longer, google it, you'll get lots of info for a pistol, but rifle info is scarce.

Tim

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS235US236&q=445+supermag

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=43

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=191

varmint917v · « **Reply #21 on:** October 31, 2007, 03:25:37 PM »

Got out to the range today and got the 44 sighted in with the Red dot scope. I was very happy with the way the gun shot and I thing that it shoots right around 2 Moa with out any load development the picture below is the only shots taken with the gun today. The 3 shots that are outside of the group are the sighting in portion of the shooting. All shots are 270 Gr GoldDot with HS-7 Powder and CCI Large pistol Primers.

I made a couple reloading mistakes that I realized when I got to the range and its what ended my day of shooting. Nothing bad happened just a few opps type things that happen when your in a hurry.

1. I forgot to run the crimping die on the 240 Gr magtech loads to get rid of the flare on the case. They wouldn't really chamber and I knew I wouldn't be using them like that so I decided to save them.
2. On the 11th shot of the day I put in a cartridge and pulled the hammer back pulled the trigger and I just got a little bit of noise and no recoil. I wait about 30 seconds or so and open the action. The shell will not kick out. I have no cleaning rod with me and other guy at the range didn't have one either. I get home and just drop the cleaning rod down the barrel and just the weight of the rod knocks the shell out. I'm sure some of you know where I am headed with this. Turns out that if you do not put powder in these things they don't shoot so well. The bullet just jumped to the rifling and stopped.

I want to make a note of how this happened and a little back ground of how long I have been reloading. I started reloading probably about 4 years ago maybe 5. And this is the first time I have ever had an opps from my reloads. This is however the first time that I have reloaded pistol shells and the first time I have loaded shells that could take a double charge. I was very cautious of not double charging and always went straight from the powder to the bullet seater with every shell. This one some how or another got through that process and went straight to the bullet seater. I wasn't really in a big hurry but I was not taking the most care in the world either. When I load for my Competition Bushmaster I weight everything every component and the final product. Hopefully someone can relate to my ramblings here.

(The shell in the picture is the one with out powder)

MSP Ret · « **Reply #22 on:** October 31, 2007, 03:58:39 PM »

Good shooting buddy, it looks as if you have a great handi deer harvesting setup there. I like the looks of it setup with the Tamer stock, I really do have to get myself a .44 Mag barrel someday....<><....

varmint917v · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2007, 05:56:01 PM »

I ran some ballistics today for the load I am using with a variety of speeds I am quite impressed with what came up. The following are setup for a 25 yard zero. I estimate that my full power loads are running somewhere around 1600 for the 270 grain bullet. I think that 270 grain in a 445 Supermag would be approaching 2200fps but for rifle data I have yet to find any.

1600FPS Muzzle
Yards Drop
20 -.2
40 .5
60 .5
80 -.2
100 -1.6
120 -3.9
140 -7
150 -9

1800FPS Muzzle
Yards Drop
20 -.2
40 .5
60 .5
80 -.1
100 -1.4
120 -3.5
140 -6.4
150 -8.1

2000 FPS Muzzle
Yards Drop
20 -.3
40 .6
60 1.1
80 1.1
100 .6
120 -.4
140 -2
150 -3

2200 FPS Muzzle
Yards Drop
20 -.3
40 .6
60 1.1
80 1.5
100 1.3
120 .7
140 -.4
150 -1.1

varmint917v · « **Reply #24 on:** November 01, 2007, 04:17:23 PM »

I am thinking about getting a reamer to make this 44mag a 445 supermag. I have never done this process before is it difficult? Does anyone that has done this conversion have any input was it worth it, does it shoot better, or any other things of relevance?
I think I am going to do it mainly because its not common. I also think that I can make a honest 150 yard deer rifle out of it. Any thoughts are more then welcome

Doug K.A. · « **Reply #25 on:** November 02, 2007, 04:59:23 PM »

That is some good shooting....keep us posted!

varmint917v · « **Reply #26 on:** November 12, 2007, 09:25:29 AM »

I made it back to the range today. Since my last range report I have switched to the 240 grain Mag Tech bullets and have worked up a load that goes past the loading data a bit but I have loaded them long but just short of the rifling. I am using a red dot scope 5 MOA dot. Today I had no jacket on to take up some of the recoil of the solid plastic butt stock and my groups showed this the 4th and 5th shots of each group are the ones that opened the group up considerably. These groups are only 50 yard and for the first three shots they are right around an inch. Judging from the ballistics I am running these 240 grain bullets about 2200 FPS. I have been very surprised by how well this barrel has shot the from the beginning I have not done any of the standard fixes to this gun. Hope this gives a little hope to those people out there that own a older 44 barrel. I have not yet slugged the barrel but will be doing this soon.