Author Topic: Best rifles today for "the rest of us" (Read 6037 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** October 28, 2007, 08:23:03 AM »

Old English , you say that and many others also but we still buy from overseas , Check walmart see much American made ?
And it does have to do with the org. post as it reflects why we shoot what we do IMHO !

Mac11700 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 28, 2007, 08:42:35 AM »

You guys can complain all you want...unless you plan on spending more and more money to ensure you are buying 100% American...and then you still won't know where some of the steel came from...or the cardboard packaging...or some of the ink used on it...or the stains in it will you...or the screws & bolts used in it...or the springs...or the glass in the optics...or...ect...ect...ect...

We live in a global economy...and the companies here have long took the American gun buying public for granted...giving us what they wanted to...not what we asked for...unless we were willing to pay for it..and thru the nose...Now...the other foreign makes have caught up to us....and some have surpassed our technology...and are building some excellent rifles...cheaper than what our companies can...We have to ask...WHY...Well...for how many years have they been reaping the rewards...with out re-investing in the companies? This is the way all major manufactures have been doing...from the auto industry to the textile industry...Take the money & run...What legacy did & have they left...POLLUTION...of the air/land/and waters...Did they or have they update their plants to keep this from happening...NO...what have they done and why...It's cheaper for them to outsource these products to another country where the labor is cheaper and they can pollute all they want...and still make large sums of money...

Don't be fooled by those who don't understand this sad fact...They want to make you feel unpatriotic by buying foreign products...don't be...be mad as hell all of our major industry has been allowed to do this......and be mad as hell...the competition is finally making our American companies update their plants...just remember...it will come at a cost to us...they won't absorb the upgrading...they will pass it off in higher prices...so their dividends don't loose value...

Mac

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #32 on:** October 28, 2007, 08:46:13 AM »

Ruger says American made !
Are they telling a lie?

NONYA · « **Reply #33 on:** October 28, 2007, 09:14:10 AM »

I would say they are assembled here,from parts that come from all over the world,just like every other US manufacturer.

30-06man · « **Reply #34 on:** October 28, 2007, 10:04:10 AM »

i know the stocks off of t/c and remington come for the usa. the steel on t/c's come from usa the only part i would question would be the rubber in the recoil pad. remington i don't know where their steel comes from. i would say remington t/c ruger nef tikkia and savage would be the best. cz about the same as the savage

sdb777 · « **Reply #35 on:** October 28, 2007, 12:07:09 PM »

Quote from: Questor on October 25, 2007, 08:45:23 AM

For those of us who don't want to spend $1000 and up for a rifle, what are the best buys? The old answers of Ruger, Remington, and Winchester have changed. I see the best buys as being guns from Europe.

Have purchased a couple of T/C Encore's and a couple of Stevens short actions(then call Penny at PacNor and order some barrels). For the money the Stevens 200 actions are okay for most shooting applications. If your doing benchrest stuff? Well, that'd be a different story.

Scott B

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #36 on:** October 28, 2007, 12:29:55 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on October 28, 2007, 08:46:13 AM

Ruger says American made !
Are they telling a lie?

Not wanting to be argumentative, but why not ask them?

Swampman · « **Reply #37 on:** October 28, 2007, 01:05:16 PM »

"They want to make you feel unpatriotic by buying foreign products..."

We shouldn't have to. You should feel unpatriotic without our help.

NONYA · « **Reply #38 on:** October 28, 2007, 06:12:09 PM »

Ill bet your home is full of foreign made items,dont get upitty!

jmckinley · « **Reply #39 on:** October 28, 2007, 06:40:51 PM »

Production rifles take your pick my favorites are;
1. Savage 2. Weatherby 3. Ruger 4. Remington 5. H&R in that order. I agree that the Savage will shoot with any production gun made. With that said my favorite guns are my custom rigs based on a Mauser 98 action. The most accurate rifle I have ever owned is my Mauser 243. I just shot a sub 1 inch group this weekend at 200 yards. I had 4 3 shot groups all running bout the same. I love them all and we all have our favorites so beauty is in the eye of, you get the drift. That said, my next 2 rifles will be a Weatherby Vanguard Sporter in 300 Win and a CZ 550 in 6.5x55 ( this will replace my custom Mauser i lost). After that I still want 3 or 4 more and I know at least 2 will be Stevens 200 in 223 and 7mm-08. The other will be another 243, 7 mag and a good 22 bolt gun. Jess

Mac11700 · « **Reply #40 on:** October 28, 2007, 06:58:18 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 28, 2007, 01:05:16 PM

"They want to make you feel unpatriotic by buying foreign products..."

We shouldn't have to. You should feel unpatriotic without our help.

Nope...not in the least...I do my part to help keep the economy going...but I sure as hell won't be a hypocrite about buying what is available to me...wither it has Made in the U.S.A. on it or not...The protectionist had their way once in this country...and it help bring on the great depression...if your able to understand it all...this explains it pretty good...It's a bit of a long read...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protectionism

Mac

Brithunter · « **Reply #41 on:** October 28, 2007, 11:15:21 PM »

Oh dear, let's look at this carefully

You the consumers demand cheap prices! ........................... is that not true?

So to meet your cheap prices the manufactures cut corners and source materials and work from places where it costs less. Well this is how it started! But now it seems that they also want encreased profits so now we get hype as well. Cheap plastic stocks which are hyped up as being desirable and better than wood.

Now correct me if I am wrong but wood is a renewable source is it not? but profit means that wood is cured quickly in kilns producing an inferior product against the traditional air dried wood. Plastic however is an artificial product and difficult to re-cycle yet it's being foisted upon us unmericifully ......................... I wonder why? could it be that the profit margins are far higher?

In pursuit of the Great God Excessive Profit jobs are sourced in countries with no or little employee protection or that allow enforced or slave labour including Child labour. Inferior materials are used and hyped as the best meanwhile plants and jobs are lost in the once great industrial areas and countries.

The sad part is now that the consumer has little choice but to buy poorly made stuff form places like China as it seems that is where most things are now made. The money folks behiond this are walking the rest of us into a very dangerous position and I wonder if they are also sleep walking into this or are they actually aware of what thet are doing?

beemanbeme · « **Reply #42 on:** October 30, 2007, 05:36:32 AM »

Sorry Brit, that old dog won't hunt. Some of the shoddiest stuff I've bought had a "union made" label on it or"buy American". I've taken back cars that were absolutely junque before the miserable 12,000 mile warrenty ran out and been laughed at by the "service" manager: "Too bad, you must have gotten a monday morning or friday afternoon car. The workers are kinda hung over or in a hurry to get home." And I'm not talking about ticky tacky stuff. I'm talking about short blocks, converters, transmissions, rear ends, and such. So when I say I've been driving Toyotas since 1982, don't try to tell me I'm being unpatriotic.
"excessive profits" has a very sweet sound to it if your retirement fund is tied to the publicly held company making them. (you might want to invest in a few shares) Of course, when one bandies about terms of that sort, I think it only fair that you define exactly what constitutes "excessive profits".

Brithunter · « **Reply #43 on:** October 30, 2007, 06:48:03 AM »

Sorry but your confusing quality with lack of it. It doesn't matter if it was union made or not lack of quality is what matters. You are also lumping cheap slave or enforced labour like that used in China with a work ethic that is part of Japanese culture. As for the poor service well that's poor service and poor customer relations. I t could also be the way you approached the problem, been there and doen that also got the Tee Shirt

.

teddy12b · « **Reply #44 on:** October 30, 2007, 06:59:04 AM »

When buddies ask me what gun they should buy I say savage. I like the way they are priced, and the accuracy is great. I've only had one Remington and it was a BDL in 300RUM. I was never happy with the accuracy I got out of it, so it's gone. Savages are relatively inexpensive and highly accurate. I think savage has set a new benchmark and the competition is having a hard time keeping up with it.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #45 on:** October 30, 2007, 12:49:44 PM »

Quote from: Swampman on October 27, 2007, 02:55:43 PM

I'm against anything made outside the US. It's killing this country and we shouldn't buy it.

Then you'd better get off the internet cuz the PC you're using and all the peripherals connected to it were 90% made in China. Same goes for 90% of the electronics in your home.

Tim

Swampman · « **Reply #46 on:** October 30, 2007, 12:58:14 PM »

"So when I say I've been driving Toyotas since 1982, don't try to tell me I'm being unpatriotic."

I won't, Toyota has more American made parts than any other domestic automobile you can buy and it's assembled in the US by Americans. It is an American made car.

You may still be unpatriotic if you buy non-US made guns/knives, but the car isn't an issue.

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/index.php

Old English · « **Reply #47 on:** October 30, 2007, 01:08:43 PM »

Quote from: Brithunter on October 30, 2007, 06:48:03 AM

You are also lumping cheap slave or enforced labour like that used in China with a work ethic that is part of Japanese culture.

Working in the sewing industry I hear this sweat shop nonsense all the time. I started work in the old, crappy, leaky factories of the UK. Come to China and check it out!! Chinese factories are clean, air conditioned, supply water, food etc. This is applicable for all industry in China, so please don't believe that nonsense. I know, I am here, I talk to ordinary factory people. Every factory has dormitories etc and people are willing to travel hundreds of miles for a job there.
Working in factories which manufacture goods for the "West" I can assure you that they have a level of pride and quality control that was sorely lacking in jolly old England, can't speak for the States. I appreciate that this a little off topic but I don't think that Foreign made necessarily means lack of quality. Definition of quality is fit for purpose.
The good news is that wages here are rising quickly, don't believe the crap you read in the media.Sooner or later, we will again be able to compete on a level playing field. I would much rather buy a product made in USA or Europe, if the quality and price are right. We don't always have that choice in 2007 though do we?
PS, my last 2 rifle purchases were Savage.

Swampman · « **Reply #48 on:** October 30, 2007, 01:11:47 PM »

Kids should have a nice clean place to work.

http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/01908/800/chinarussia.htm

Zachary · « **Reply #49 on:** October 30, 2007, 01:19:35 PM »

Sometimes when I follow these posts, not just as a moderator, but even just as a member, I don't know whether to laugh or be upset. Everybody has their own opinions and, while I don't agree with everyone, I see some valid points. However, I just can't understand why people sometimes get so "wiled up" about certain things.

That said, my personal experience leads me to state that Tikkas are the best made rifles in the $500 to $600 price category. Keep in mind that I have owned several Remingtons, and they are shooters as well, but I have found the Tikkas to be a higher quality rifle. Yes, I know that there are a few - and I emphasize a few - people that have had some negative experiences with Tikkas. However, this is very rare, and, at least from this board, I can reasonably state that I have heard way more complaints about Remingtons than I have about Tikkas. In fact, it appears to me that Tikkas are very well liked and ranked among our members.

Keep in mind that Remingtons are getting up there in price too. Pretty soon don't be surprised when your Remington 700s are in the $1000 price category.

Zachary

beemanbeme · « **Reply #50 on:** October 31, 2007, 07:00:50 AM »

Thank you, Old English. My experiences have been about 90% with the Japanese but if they felt they could sub contract work to the Chinese, they would do so only with the strictest standards and supervision.
I daresay much like your situation.
I would be happy to buy American. I would be willing to pay a bit more IF the quality was the same. But that's not the case.

Swampman · « **Reply #51 on:** October 31, 2007, 11:13:42 AM »

I agree, American made is much much better.

Fat NDN · « **Reply #52 on:** October 31, 2007, 07:25:53 PM »

Being a disabled Veteran I lean toward American made. I hunt with a Savage 22-250. It shoots 1/4" groups at 100 yds. But for more precise
Silhouette shooting I use a CZ 452 .22LR. For the Savage to shoot that well I had to work on it, and for the CZ, which shoots 1 hole groups
at 50yds, I just took it out of the box. My CZ says made in Kansas City, MO. Go figure.

ccoker · « **Reply #53 on:** November 01, 2007, 09:22:28 AM »

I am very "buy american" but my most recent purchase was a Tikka T3 because of past experience with them and Sakos

I will echo that the newer Savages are great guns

prairiedog555 · « **Reply #54 on:** November 01, 2007, 12:48:47 PM »

Buy American is a great idea, but not practical in all cases as was pointed out by Quick concerning electronics. I buy American cars now that the foreign competition MADE American companies put out a better product, but before they just gave us junk and tried to make us feel bad about buying foreign because of their lack of good engineering and QC.
It is a natural progression, when a country gets too prosperous and inflated manufacturing goes to less developed areas where 50 cents an hour is good wages and lets you live OK.
Just like Japan, they only make high end goods there now, all the rest is farmed out to 3rd world workers.

Do you think you can get a craftsman to work in US for low wages? Everything is relative. I would work for $1 a day if my rent was $5, and a loaf of bread was 5 cents. We are prosperous. In US you are supposed to use your brain, not your back. Its the way things work.

And about sweat shops. My partner is a US citizen from Thailand. He says that Thai people are happy to get any job and people who think they are doing right by taking those jobs away because of bad conditions are taking the food out of peoples mouths. Didn't you ever take a crappy job when you were young untill you got a better one? I had a bunch.

Swampman · « **Reply #55 on:** November 01, 2007, 12:56:33 PM »

"Do you think you can get a craftsman to work in US for low wages?"

I've been doing it for years.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #56 on:** November 02, 2007, 03:23:11 AM »

Quote from: Questor on October 25, 2007, 08:45:23 AM

For those of us who don't want to spend $1000 and up for a rifle, what are the best buys? The old answers of Ruger, Remington, and Winchester have changed. I see the best buys as being guns from Europe.

Back to the original question…

Sako/Tikka burned a bridge with me when they tried to hide the problems with stainless barrels that were blowing up. Yes, their rifles are good products, these few excepted, but I didn’t like the way they handled it. Ruger is still running ads for free safety upgrades to their original three screw revolvers, been doing it for years.

Ruger and Savage get my vote for new domestic rifles. Used rifles also rate high on the value chart – my one Remington (.308 Win) was made in 1975, was nearly like new, is a fine shooter and cost $350. The story is the same for my used Rugers although they are somewhat newer (1989 .257 Roberts and 1984 .30-06).

Don’t care for Browning A-Bolts or Winchester post-’64 anything. New Remingtons don’t excite me as I wonder about quality and their imports are of no interest at all, even though I would like a nice Mauser-actioned rifle (keyword ‘nice’).

Have seen some Howa and CZ that I rather liked but still prefer Ruger.

Just my opinion.

PeterCartwright · « **Reply #57 on:** November 02, 2007, 04:03:37 PM »

Another vote for Howa-whether under their own name or Weatherby, or Smith & Wesson or whomever. Good machine work. Good barrels. Adjustable trigger. The Japanese have had precision machine work down pat for a lot of years. I like quality American work also, but this thread was about high quality at a reasonable price. Howa certainly qualifies.

Brithunter · « **Reply #58 on:** November 03, 2007, 12:15:36 AM »

Hi All,

Well I sorry to disagree here but there are a couple of things :-

Quote

Sako/Tikka burned a bridge with me when they tried to hide the problems with stainless barrels that were blowing up. Yes, their rifles are good products, these few excepted, but I didn’t like the way they handled it. [/quote

This I think you will find is squarely in Berretta's court not Tikka or Sako as Berretta is the name behind both of their new models and handles all the importing into the US. Berretta also madea real hash of the 92 pistol failures many years ago.

As for Chinese quality being good OK I have a pair of Cannon pocket binos which are good but I believe Cannon handles the QC issues. Compac actually closed it's plant in China as the QC was such a nightmare that it was losing it's reputation for relibilty and quality. I brought a Tasco varible scope as I was told that they were OK again. Tasco originals were good until they got greedy and stupid and loss so much reutation they were bust only to be reserected. The one I have is not even usable as the focusing picece of the eyebell is flopping about and the recticle floats with it. I am having trouble getting anything doen with it as no one seems to want to know. Years ago I brought a Chinese scope which is a dea dringer fo the old Tasco 4x40 and it is still working well but that was before the influx of the late comers to the table of cheap labour in China. No I have never been to China and doubt I ever will ............................... I hate Chinese food so why go?

On another forum one member went to China as a missonary, he had to sign a form from teh State Dept ssaying that if he got introuble in China he was not their responsabily and they would not even try to intervene. he was going to help out Chinese Chrstians and a lot of them are imprissioned in work camps. These work camps are like factory estates but surronded by barber and razor wire fences. The "Workers" get no pay just a bed and food, the company has no wage bill no health bill, it's slave labour. I rarely read newspapers or watch TV as the media cannot be trusted to tell the truth.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #59 on:** November 03, 2007, 02:34:50 AM »

Quote from: Brithunter on November 03, 2007, 12:15:36 AM

Hi All,

Well I sorry to disagree here but there are a couple of things :-

Quote
Sako/Tikka burned a bridge with me when they tried to hide the problems with stainless barrels that were blowing up. Yes, their rifles are good products, these few excepted, but I didn’t like the way they handled it.

This I think you will find is squarely in Berretta's court not Tikka or Sako as Berretta is the name behind both of their new models and handles all the importing into the US. Berretta also madea real hash of the 92 pistol failures many years ago.
…

It is my understanding that not all of the bad barrels came to the US and that injuries occurred elsewhere as well. Regardless, Nothing prevented Sako/Tikka from taking action.

Berretta doesn’t win any points in the mess either.