Author Topic: New rifle patterns like a shotgun, HELP (Read 1672 times)

TX7Mag · « **on:** October 28, 2007, 04:06:13 PM »

Went out to the range today to get a few shots in before next weekend and my 270 Vanguard with the Stainless and synthetic pkg. would not group worth a poop. Two weeks ago I was shooting .75 - 1.0" groups using Remington Core-Lokts 130gr. bullets. Today with the Federal Fusion and Core-Lokts I was not able to group at all.
After many rounds and regular cleaning with a Bore snake I decided to check all of the screws. The scope was tight but the two action screws required tightening about 3/4 of a turn. What causes them to work lose and what can be done to prevent this from happening again? I did tighten the front screw first.
Even after tightening the screws and cleaning once again, my groups were around 4" at 100 yards. This does not make me feel that confident taking my new gun out with me on opening weekend.
Any suggestions is appreciated.

TX7Mag

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #1 on:** October 28, 2007, 04:17:17 PM »

Thread tape will help bolts from loosening. Make sure they are not overtorqued. This will cause the action to stress, may throw shots.

Were your cold barrel shots on target and subsequent shots off, or were they all bad?

Shots flying after the barrel warms up may be because the barrel is touching the stock somewhere. How long were you waiting between shots?

Did your gun get bumped or dropped lately? Scope may be bad.

Try a different scope on the vanguard. Try the vanguards scope on another gun.

TX7Mag · « **Reply #2 on:** October 28, 2007, 04:33:04 PM »

Thank you for the suggestions. All shots were from a cool to warm barrel. I never let it get hot to the touch. Today I took my time and allowed 4-5 minutes between shots. Toady's temp might have hit 82 degrees.

As far as the screws go, I tightend them up really good but did not go overboard in doing so. What would be considered over torquing them?

TX7Mag

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #3 on:** October 28, 2007, 04:39:25 PM »

Not sure on the torquing specs on the vanguard, hopefully someone will chime in. Of course, a properly bedded action (pillar or skim) will reduce the effects of action stress.

If this is an older gun that has proven itself in the past, I would look into scope issues first. I've had my fair share of scopes that bought the farm in between seasons.

I'd also use whatever ammo has proven reliable in the past, no matter the cost. Ain't no time for experimenting, this close to the season.

TX7Mag · « **Reply #4 on:** October 28, 2007, 04:53:51 PM »

I just purchased this gun back in early Sept. and have added a brand new Bushnell elite scope that is sitting on Leuplod bases and rings.

I am at a loss since only two weeks ago I was shooting 1" and less for 3 shot groups. And no, the gun has not been dropped, kicked, used as a pry bar or sledge hammer.

TX7Mag

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #5 on:** October 28, 2007, 05:06:31 PM »

Just confirming that the scope you had the good groups with is the one that's on it now. You say you "added" the scope, so I just want to make sure.

The Elite with quality rings should be the ticket, but sudden change in quality of groups, all other things being similar, screams "scope"

Have someone else fire the gun, perhaps its a parallax issue.

Are you shooting it the same way, i.e. rest and or bipod. Not applying support under the barrel, correct?

Check the crown to make sure its not damaged. Also, examine the barrel to make sure your not fouling abnormally. I had a gun once that started throwing bullets, and it turned out to be a burr or bad rifling cut that came loose after the first 20 rounds or so. Caused a lot of fliers till I wore it out by shooting a lot. I found it when the brass rod I was using to clean came out scratched.

I feel your pain. Close to season and questionable accuracy. I'd be "crappin razorblades" till I got it figured out.

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #6 on:** October 28, 2007, 05:37:47 PM »

Did you use the same bullet weight Core-Lokt's as before???

Did you get all the copper fouling out when you cleaned your rifle??

If you have time---try putting the old scope back on and see what happens----you might have just purchased a bad scope is all.

TX7Mag · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2007, 05:55:53 PM »

The scope is the only one that I have had on this gun. And i Have kept it clean at the range as well as cleaned real well when i get home from the range using Hoppe's #9.

I have used the same bullets, same weight, same lot.

TX7Mag

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2007, 07:18:19 PM »

Quote from: TX7Mag on October 28, 2007, 04:06:13 PM

Went out to the range today to get a few shots in before next weekend and my 270 Vanguard with the Stainless and synthetic pkg. would not group worth a poop. Two weeks ago I was shooting .75 - 1.0" groups using Remington Core-Lokts 130gr. bullets. Today with the Federal Fusion and Core-Lokts I was not able to group at all.
After many rounds and regular cleaning with a Bore snake I decided to check all of the screws. The scope was tight but the two action screws required tightening about 3/4 of a turn. What causes them to work lose and what can be done to prevent this from happening again? I did tighten the front screw first.
Even after tightening the screws and cleaning once again, my groups were around 4" at 100 yards. This does not make me feel that confident taking my new gun out with me on opening weekend.
Any suggestions is appreciated.

TX7Mag

Real simple...dump the Remington ammo...I have found it to be the culprit 99% of the time when problems crop up unexpectedly...and not just in the 270 ammo line either...Not only with heaps pace issues...but with copper fouling as well...so...I would clean it real good...and just shoot another brand by itself..and see how it does...The Vanguard's all have a issue with the action screws becoming loose..You need to call one of the repair centers or the factory...I forget the correct tension that is required on them...but I think it's 60ft.lbs. on the front...and 45 on the rear...and use a little red loc-tite on them...

Mac

Brithunter · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2007, 10:48:48 PM »

I see a bore snake mentioned for cleaning. Now do you have a proper cleaning rod and bronze brushes?

If not you need to get some and clean that barrel carefully and properly and make sure it's not fouled with copper as it sure sounds liek you might have a fouled bore. Good luck with finding and sorting the problem.

Swampman · « **Reply #10 on:** October 29, 2007, 12:01:21 AM »

Stick with the Remington Core-Locts. They are about as good as hunting ammo gets. Blue Loc-Tite on your action screws will keep them from backing out.

backstrap · « **Reply #11 on:** October 29, 2007, 05:21:57 AM »

It sounds like u might have a scope problem,just because the scopes new and u have shot your rifle some dont mean the scope cant go bad on u i would try another scope and see what happens, and are u cleaning your rifle barrel alott i know there is some rilfes that like a fouled barrel to shoot well and i have a new A_Bolt thats like that and i would stick with the core loks also so ease up on the cleaning and try that and i second the blue loc-tite u use red u might not get the screw back out ever again

beemanbeme · « **Reply #12 on:** October 29, 2007, 05:30:03 AM »

Just how are you cleaning your rifle with your bore snake?
If you are getting uniformly bad groups with the Rem and Federal ammo you can kinda forget the slam against the Rem ammo. Probably more deer killed with Rem ammo than all the rest combined.
The comment about trying another scope has value also. Or at least take it off the rifle and put it back on making sure the bases are on tight (with a little lok tite or finger nail polish on the threads) and the rings are the same.

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #13 on:** October 29, 2007, 08:56:46 AM »

Ya---NEVER use red Loctite on a firearm----blue only.

Try some Sweets 7.62 to get the copper fouling out and get a proper cleaning kit.

As said before----try checking you scope mounts for tightness.

If all else fails---take the scope back and get a new one----with an eye on stepping up to at least a Leupold or Burris. Sorry---not a fan of Bushnell or Nikon scopes.

Swampman · « **Reply #14 on:** October 29, 2007, 11:44:02 AM »

The Bushnell Elite series are as good as anything you can buy at any price. I'd check the mounts and rings.

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2007, 11:52:36 AM »

Not hardly---I was suggesting scopes for him---myself---I only buy Zeiss.

Swampman · « **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2007, 12:08:32 PM »

I've compared the Bushnell Elite series to many Zeiss and other European (and American) scopes costing much much more, and I'll stick with the Bushnell 3200/4200 thanks. You just can't beat a Bushnell Elite even for 3 times the money.

TX7Mag · « **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2007, 03:00:16 PM »

Sorry for the confusion that I may have caused with some of my posts.

After each day at the range I carefully and diligently clean the gun from top to bottom with a real cleaning kit, lots of #9, patches, scrubbing etc. It probably takes me an hour to an hour and a half to clean my rifle. After cleaning I run my dry patches through until they are clean, then I saturate a patch with #9 run it through and lay the gun down for the night (level so that all of the gunk does not run back into the action) then the following night I reclean the barrel. I only rely on the Bore-Snake for "field cleaning".

I originally sighted my gun in with the 130gr. Core-Lokts and was getting my 3/4-1" groups. Last Sunday I went out with 130gr. Federal Fusion and Core-Lokt's. Neither one would group worth a hoot, so I can't blame either ammo.

I will remove the scope and check the bases to ensure that they are still tight, As they should be, I used BLUE lock-tite on them when I mounted the base and the rings. The only screws that did not receive lock-tite were the action screws.

Thanks for the suggestions.

TX7Mag

Swampman · « **Reply #18 on:** October 29, 2007, 03:20:02 PM »

Hummm! I hardly ever clean my barrels. Maybe once a year after hunting season. My rifles all shoot fine and have for years. I do wipe down the outside of the gun with an oily patch after each outing.

TX7Mag · « **Reply #19 on:** October 29, 2007, 03:47:06 PM »

I too thought that perhaps my barrel was too clean, but after 15-20 rounds I would presume that enough rounds have been fired to settle in the barrel with just enough fouling.

TX7Mag

Omaha-BeenGlockin · « **Reply #20 on:** October 30, 2007, 12:57:34 AM »

Hoppes #9 will do nothing to the copper fouling---you need something ammonia based to remove copper---the patches will come out blue----don't get too gung ho with the stuff because its a pretty strong solvent(Sweets 7.62 or Shooters Choice copper solvent) and can eat your bore if left too long.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=667226&t=11082005

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=643582&t=11082005

Read the customer reviews on the Sweets product.

The Hoppes #9 is a powder solvent--but not a copper solvent------sometimes you need to give the barrel the 1-2 punch-----get the copper out---then use the powder solvent.

Val · « **Reply #21 on:** October 30, 2007, 03:21:09 AM »

As already suggested, you should try another scope on this rifle. A bad scope does not necessarily mean completely out to lunch groups.

Swampman · « **Reply #22 on:** October 30, 2007, 11:25:18 AM »

Yea! just send the Bushnell Elite to me. I'll take care of it.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #23 on:** October 31, 2007, 07:17:29 AM »

It certainly sounds like you've touched all the bases. One more thing. Is the forearm touching the barrel anywhere? Will a dollar bill slide easily from the front to the receiver? If so, it sounds like it's narrowed down to the scope. Try going back to the store and seeing if they'll swop it out for you. Maybe take one out of another package or something. Does a friend have a scope you can borrow? If not, I'd spring for a $100 Simmons or BSA or something like that to get you thru this hunting season. The folks that only talk thru their pocketbooks will never admit it, but there's a ton of deer killed every year with cheap scopes.

Swampman · « **Reply #24 on:** October 31, 2007, 11:12:45 AM »

Bushnell has one of the best warranties in the business.

benchracer · « **Reply #25 on:** November 01, 2007, 02:16:50 AM »

If you think your barrel is clean, get a can of WIPEOUT and follow the directions on the can. I'm willing to bet that a lot of blue gunk will come out of your barrel. If that doesn't fix your problem, I would be inclined to agree with some others that your scope is the most likely culprit. Perform a "box test" with your scope to check it out (i.e. shoot a 3 shot group, go up 6MOA, shoot 3 shot group, go right 6MOA, shoot 3 shot group, go down 6MOA, shoot 3 shot group, go left 6MOA, shoot 3 shot group). Your final group should print exactly where your first group printed. If so, your scope is fine.

fornra · « **Reply #26 on:** November 03, 2007, 05:44:25 PM »

Very simple, swap it for a Savage, lol.
I would also suggest the ammo or the scope, if as you say the rifle hasn't been damaged in some way it will not change this much.
Take someone with you to the range and let them load your gun for you, and they can leave an empty chamber occasionally and you may find the culprit. It's happened to me and when I applied proper form and stopped anticipating the recoil and muzzle blast my groups went back to normal. Glenn

The Gamemaster · « **Reply #27 on:** November 04, 2007, 06:19:09 AM »

Here is some of my best advice.

FIRST - do not worry about copper fouling. That is nothing but an old wives tale - Period!

If you were switching between copper jacketed and pure lead bullets - you would have a condition called leading - where the copper bullet travels faster through the barrel than the lead bullet does and that would cause the barrel to get fouled with lead - which would make the diameter of the barrel smaller. Which would cause some problems.

BUT

Using factory ammo in your gun is not - repeat - NOT going to hurt the barrel.

I have a rifle in my possession that has never had the copper fouling removed from the barrel.

A little Hoppe's #9 and a brass brush and some cotton patches is all that has been inside of it in 80 and I will repeat myself - 80 years of service.

Even with a cheap Weaver 4x scope that was bought in 1965 - it will group 1 inch at 100 yards!

Over cleaning will ruin a barrel faster than not cleaning it at all!

In your case, all you should have had to do is wipe the rifle clean and run a brush with bore cleaner and some clean white dry patches through it. That's it!

If you left any oil, grease, or cleaner inside of the barrel, you probably built up excessive pressure and probably damaged the barrel. I would look for swells in the barrel and discoloration - which is hard to see these days with all the special coatings that most new guns comes with these days.

Next

You need to take this gun back to where ever you bought it from and show it to a competent gunsmith. Let him examine your rifle and even send it back to the manufacturer.

First

You should take back your scope and have the shop where you bought it from exchange it for a new one. Have it mounted and bore sighted at the shop by a competent gunsmith. Not some kid at the counter at Wal Mart!

There is a possibility that something broke inside of the scope and you cannot see it from the outside - and therefore you are blaming the firearm instead of the scope.

The next step is to check the mounts.

There are gun shops that has gages that can check the parallelism between the bore and the scope.

You should never have to turn the scope adjustments more than 15 clicks to zero in a new scope.

If the scope has to be moved that far, chances are that the scope is not on center line with the barrel and the mounts needs to be moved to compensate for that.

I have seen gun shops - where the person behind the counter did not know what they were doing and mounted a scope and bore sighted it and moved the adjustment too far and something broke inside of the scope. Only it took 20 or so shots for it to work itself loose.

I have seen scopes that were assembled with too much grease and when you moved the adjustment - it didn't move as much as what you turned it and then would move several shots later.

That particular scope also froze on me the first day of rifle season - when I was using it to look at a small buck. Later that day, a large buck appeared 60 yards away, running through the woods and I could not turn down the power of the scope in time and did not get a shot at that deer. Which by the way was a 150+ class Boone and Crocket.

Last but not least, with all the cleaning you did. You might have done damage to the bore / rifling of the barrel.

If the gun shot well before and now doesn't. That is what you are up against!

Brithunter · « **Reply #28 on:** November 04, 2007, 07:30:36 AM »

This is getting more amusing by the post

some rifles will put different weight bullets up to 6" away from other weights so to say :-

Quote

You should never have to turn the scope adjustments more than 15 clicks to zero in a new scope.

Using normal 4 clicks to the inch of American scopes that would require 24 clicks.

Seeing as how every rifle barrel is different and as a result some will foul with copper quickly and others take longer depending of how many rounds are fired every year and the particular barrel it's possibel to have a rifle for 80 years and never use a copper removal agent on it, however it does not mean it has not copper fouling only that it does not effect the accuracy of that particuler barrel. A magnifying bore scope would be needed to verify the abscence of copper fouling.

I have a .270 rifle which the bore picks up copper fouling quickly, it also seems to have a tight bore which of course makes it worse, providing I don't let it get too bad accuracy is good.

Now this statement is usually true however factory ammo can be faulty on occasion, rear true but it can happen:-

Quote

Using factory ammo in your gun is not - repeat - NOT going to hurt the barrel.

Depending on the quantity shot of course, if you shoot enough of even good factory ammo it will wear the barrel eventually and wear will hurt the barrel wearing away the rifling in time.

Also bore sighting is an approximate setting as it only aligns the scopes reticle with the bore, it takes not account of trajectory nor gravity.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #29 on:** November 04, 2007, 04:42:46 PM »

I must agree that I have seen rifle whose only maintainance was bronze brushes, Hoppes #9, and 3 in 1 oil. They shot well within hunting tolerances. The owners were very dedicated in their cleaning program, its just that's all they used.
I truly feel that the old myth about wearing out more rifles by cleaning than by shooting comes from not using a bore guide and cleaning from the muzzle end.
Back on task: I think everyone agrees that if you can't form a box with your scope: shoot a group holding as best you can, and then move vertical 16 clicks and shoot another group, and then move right (or left) 16 clicks and shoot a group, and then down and then left (or right). You should come up with approximately a square. If not, the scope is your probable culprit. the idea of having someone else shoot the rifle isn't a bad idea. You may be so down on the rifle that it may affect your ability.
FYI, don't worry about oil rings in your bore. Just finish up your cleaning regimen by running one oily patch thru your bore followed by two dry patches. Do not use a silicone based oil in the bore of your rifle. Supposedly it will not vapourize like a petroleum based oil will. It's okay on locking lugs, etc but not bores.