The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!

[rickt300]

One of my deer loads this year is the 150 grain uncoated Combined Technology Ballistic Tip loaded on top of 48.0 grains of H414. This gives around 2700 fps out of my 19 inch barreled 7x57. Last night, right at dark a nice 10 point walked around the end of some timber less than 30 yards from me and I shot him right in the middle of the shoulder blade but just a little off the bottom of it. The bullet went thru the blade, destroyed two bertabrae, mushed the lungs and the jacket was found in the offside shoulder blade and the core either exited or bone went out the other side leaving a 3/4 inch exit hole. The hole in the onside shoulder blade was 2 inches across, the bone damage area thru the vertabrae was 3 inches across though the bullet did not center the backbone, the hole in the offside shoulder blade was around an inch across. A faster bang flop I have never seen. There was little solid mass in the chest cavity. Interestingly neither shoulder was a total loss. The jacket had expanded to almost an inch. Being a practical man I can't say this was a bullet failure even though the core and jacket parted ways.

[Coyote Hunter]

... The bullet went thru the blade, destroyed two bertabrae, mushed the lungs and the jacket was found in the offside shoulder blade and the core either exited or bone went out the other side leaving a 3/4 inch exit hole. ... The jacket had expanded to almost an inch. Being a practical man I can't say this was a bullet failure even though the core and jacket parted ways.

Its not a bullet failure if you are happy with the results.  I would not be. 

The judicial ruling of “Not guilty by reason of insanity” has never made sense to me.  I would like to see “Guilty but insane” instead.  Same with that bullet and its performance.  I would consider that the bullet failed (as it did not perform as I would like) yet, as often happens, the animal died any way.

[Don Fischer]

I'm sure glad I glad I don't make bullet's for a living. Nobody makes even one bullet that everybody loves. Two guy's standing over a dead deer; a bang flop. First guy says, "boy. Ripped it right off it's feet. Never saw a deer die so fast". The other guy look at it and shakes his head and says, "Yea, but the bullet failed. To bad".

[rickt300]

Lets see, it penetrated bone most of it's travel and left an exit hole while providing dead right there instant death. Yeah it must have failed.

[victorcharlie]

No bullet failure IMO......30 yards, 2700 fps, through bone?  That's just about the result I'd expect from any bullet.

[billy_56081]

If that is a failure could someone please define success for me?

[Coyote Hunter]

Yup, the deer died, a good thing.

Yup, IMHO, the bullet failed.  It came apart at relatively low velocity on a broadside shot.  Not so good in my book.

'Success' and 'Failure' are judgement calls, not absolutes.If you expect a certain level of performance, like the bullet maintaining its integrity and weight, a bullet that does not do so is rightfully said to have failed.  If you're happy with a dead deer regardless of how the bullet accomplished the goal, then even varmint bullets that blow up would often perform wonderfully and could be called 'successful'.

Sorry, I plan for the worst and work for the best.  A bullet that falls apart on such a shot is of little interest to me.  But if you're happy with such performance, use them.

[rickt300]

No bullet is perfect. I have to look at results, my 358 winchester would have done the same thing with the exception of the massive internal chest damage and it most likely would not have lost the 200 gr. RNCL's jacket to the stringy web like stuff on the inside of a shoulder blade and the bullet would have exited mostly intact. As long as the deer drops I can't actually call it a failed projectile. Maybe we should come up with some kind of scale to measure bullet performance, points for accuracy, wound width, penetration, exit hole, quickness of demise etc. So rated this ballistic tip would have to get at least an 85 or so. considering there are no 100's thats good enough for me.

[Don Fischer]

I gotta know CH. If that jacket he found in the deer had exited and nothing was found inside, would the bullet have still failed?

[PartsMan]

It's really amazing.
Even after all the bed discussion on the web a BT will still kill deer.

[rickt300]

The fact is I didn't use them because of all the bad web commentary up until recently. A couple of years ago I used a Combined Technology version of this bullet on a small feral hog and it exited the broadside ribcage hit making a large exit hole and this pig ran maybe 40 yards. All of the other lease (non mossbacks) guys that aren't using 30-30's use them and like em. I finally broke down this year and decided to use them for all my deer hunting and so far I can't really complain. This is not to say other bullets are off the list or that tougher bullets don't have their place, bullets are tools and some are more specialized than others.

[Coyote Hunter]

I gotta know CH. If that jacket he found in the deer had exited and nothing was found inside, would the bullet have still failed?

Yes, but no one would ever know unless the jacket or core was later recovered.  Ignorance of a fact does not change the fact.

[Coyote Hunter]

Good expansion with high weight retention are what I look for in a jacketed hunting bullet. No lead core bullet, whether bonded or not, will retain 100% of its original in all situations.  When bone is encountered, exposed lead gets wiped away.  I can accept that.

I can also accept that deer are not that hard to kill and almost any bullet will work on a broadside.  What I am more concerned about, however, is when things go wrong.  Will a bullet that falls apart on a broadside be able to make it to the vitals if the angle is bad?  I choose to minimize the possibility that it might not by choosing bullets that are more solidly constructed. 

Nor am I alone in doing so - few would intentionally choose a varmint bullet for deer when an identical bullet designed for deer was available. For decades many people have chosen Nolser Partitions because they have a mechanism designed to limit weight loss. Bonded and monometal bullets provide the same advantages to a greater or lesser degree and are quite popular. 

A couple of weeks ago while elk and deer hunting I had an opportunity to  appreciate my choice of bullets - in this case a 7mm 140g bonded North Fork launched at 3200fps.  A buck mule deer provided me with a fleeting shot opportunity which I took.  The buck was standing still, quartering away, and I placed the crosshairs so the bullet would enter just behind the ribs.  Just as the trigger broke, though, the buck decided it had had enough and stepped forward. Instead of entering behind the ribs the bullet entered the right ham.The buck dropped in its tracks and while gutting it we recovered the bullet from the lung cavity.  That was 3 feet of penetration.  The bullet retained 131.2g or the original 140g.

Here's a few pictures of recovered North Fork bullets. From left-to-right:

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from dirt
(500 yards, 145.0 grains retained weight, 90.9%)

.30-06, 165 grain @ 2800fps, recovered from cow elk
(~25 yards, 133.2 grains retained weight, 80.7%)

7mm 140 grain @ 3200fps, recovered from buck mule deer
(~150 yards, 131.2 grains retained weight, 93.7%)

 

 


 

Here's links to full-size pictures:
 Top
 Side
 Bottom

[billy_56081]

So what is pass percentage and what is fail percentage on recovered weight?

[Coyote Hunter]

So what is pass percentage and what is fail percentage on recovered weight?

As far as I'm concerned, that's up to the individual behind the trigger.

[nomosendero]

I just had to read it! 

[Cheesehead]

180 grain Ballistic Tip hand loaded 300 Winchester Magnum. Over a dozen deer taken with this round. All one shot kills, all pass through, all angles.  A high performing bullet in my experience.

Cheese

[rickt300]

All those prettily expanded bullets "failed" simply because they didn't exit or you wouldn't have them. I don't take poor percentage shots so especially deep penetration isn't needed.

[Coyote Hunter]

All those prettily expanded bullets "failed" simply because they didn't exit or you wouldn't have them. I don't take poor percentage shots so especially deep penetration isn't needed.

As I said, its up to the person behind the trigger to make the judgement call as to whether a bullet failed or not.  If you think the North Forks failed, I’m comfortable with that.  I disagree.

The first bullet (left) was recovered from Mother Earth.  If it had been able to drill another quarter mile through the hill it would have succeeded in exiting.  Don’t know any bullet that could do that, though.

The second bullet (center) was recovered from a cow elk after breaking bones in both the near and far sides.  The cow dropped at the shot, which I consider a good thing.  A failure?  I doubt a Ballistic tip would have fared as well as the bonded North Fork with its monometal rear section.  If you look closely you will see that much of the lead core was wiped away, exposing the solid rear shank.  Would a Ballistic Tip have dropped the elk?  Probably.  Would it have exited?  We’ll never know.

The third bullet (right) also performed well in my estimation.  The buck dropped with the shot.  The point of aim,  behind the ribs and quartering away, was not a low percentage shot in terms of placement, although I was gambling the buck, already alerted, would hold its position for a quarter-second longer.  It did not, hence the hit in the right ham.  But the North Fork penetrated well and did its intended job regardless, with excellent weight retention.  Again I doubt that a Ballistic Tip would have fared as well but I guess we’ll never know that, either.

If Ballistic Tips turn your crank, use them.  I consider them just another cup-and-core bullet with typical cup-and-core performance.  Adequate in most cases, not as well suited for difficult shots as some other bullets.  Since I never know when I might have to stop a fleeing animal or when Murphy might come calling (meaning we don't always get to pick our shots the way we would like or get the results we intend), I prefer to stoke my rifles with something else. 

[rickt300]

I wouldn't use Ballistic tip bullets on elk. It would be unlikely that I would have taken the shot at the deer with them either. I'd just wait for my next opportunity, sometimes the deer win one.

[myronman3]

all blather.  every critter shot with ballistic tips from my gun dropped dead instantly.

[PartsMan]

If you ask me. ( I realize no one  did not but you get it anyway)
A ballistic tip bullet has failed if it does exit.

There are two schools of thought on bullet performance.

One is deep bone crushing penetration with an exit wound.
This idea will work at bad angles and gives two holes for a blood trail.
Very affective especially on larger game.

The other is for the bullet to fragment inside the animal an transfer all energy to it.
This is what hollow point and ballistic tip bullets are for.
With a proper shot every organ in the chest will be damaged.
Two of the deer I have shot I had to pour the lungs out and the heart had holes in it.
I don't think they were going to get away.

Now everyone is entitled to there opinion.
Personally I use some of both.

[rickt300]

I have 3 different bullets loaded for my 7x57 right now, the 140 gr. partition, the 150 gr. Ballistic tip and the 150 gr. Sierra Gameking. The latter to hit to the same POI and the 140 hits an inch lower. If Hogzilla appears he will get a partition or two but I will use the other two on deer. I know everyone loves the partition but I get quicker kills using the more expansive bullets and I have yet to get an exit with a partition that was very big, more than half an inch.

[Todd1700]

If Ballistic Tips turn your crank, use them.  I consider them just another cup-and-core bullet with typical cup-and-core performance.  Adequate in most cases, not as well suited for difficult shots as some other bullets. 

I don't even consider them to be as good as most standard cup and core bullets. I read all the wonderful on line accounts of people who have killed like 2467 deer with them and never had a problem. Yet it's odd that out of all my friends and family that tried them only one or two are still willing to use them. All the others despise them now. If you are wiling to always wait for a broadside shot and if you keep your shots behind the shoulder in the rib cage then you might never have a problem with ballistic tips. If you take angled shots, shoulder shots or trust them to consistently drive through bone in order to reach the vitals then eventually you will go home broken hearted. Of all the wounded and lost deer horror stories I have heard of or been a part of over the last 5 years I bet 80 percent of them involved a ballistic tip bullet.

[Cheesehead]

Any white tail, any angle, will not last more than 1 minute with even a marginal shot from a 180 grain Ballistic Tip launched from a 300 Win Mag, unless shot in the leg, jaw, ect...... reasonable shot placement and they are done, every time. Been there, done that, many times. They go down faster than one hit with a Partition.

Cheese

[Todd1700]

Eh, they're just varmint bullets that some use on deer. Some will get lucky and have a long run without  a problem. That's the ones you see on line speaking of them in worshipful tones. But you never hear from them when the inevitable disaster befalls.

They are basically just hollow points with a pretty plastic nipple capping the hole. As such, when they hit they rapidly over expand and fly all apart. Penetration is often terrible. True, when all goes well they can produce massive internal damage leading to rapid kills. But when it goes bad a deer runs off with a small entrance hole, no exit hole and leaving no blood trail. They can and sometimes do blow up on shoulder blades. They can and sometimes do fail to penetrate well on angled shots. I have often seen them fragment and excessively damage edible meat. I have seen them fragment and rupture bowels causing a meat fouling gut shot on shots in which a better bullet would have simply killed the deer without this problem.

I'll grant that using 180 grain BT's out of a 300 win mag would probably be a more certain killer than many other ballistic tip combos but most people I know don't care to use a 300 win mag and a 180 gr bullet on animals that in most areas weigh on average 150 to 170 lbs for the bucks and 100 to 120 lbs for the does. I have also seen the meat damage from such a combo at the local processor and in many cases I have no doubt that many of the deer I saw shot with 300 mags and ballistic tips had nearly half the usuable meat destroyed. No thanks, you couldn't give me a case of them.

[Cheesehead]

I did shoot a deer in the shoulder blade with those 180's. The bullet went through both shoulders. There was lots of meat damage, I blame that on shot placement. The meat damage would be massive if shot in the hind quarters, again a shot placement issue.

 A bullets failure to expand would be my idea of bullet failure, this happened to me once with Corelokts, yet it still use them since I consider this an isolated incident and more of a shot placement issue. I shot a buck in the upper neck while he was looking at me, the shot was a little high and to the right, hitting the buck in the jaw head on and exiting the back of the neck, missing the spine by one inch. If I was using Ballistic tips on that day the buck would be on my wall. A guy in the next section got this buck and I got to have a close look at it. I took this shot since this was the only part of the deer I could see, live and learn, I have learned to always use Ballistic Tips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheese

[Jaydub in Wi]

I used the 300 win mag/ 180 gr b tip once on a caribou hunt. Worked fine on the lung shot. I shot a second bull with a quartering to shot. The bullet hit the near side shoulder and traveled through part of the lungs. There was a lot of blood shot meat, however most bullets would do the same. What concerned me was the lack of penetration after the bone was struck.  For deer , they should work fine. I switched to barnes x bullets for my hunting and have been pleased with the results. good hunting to all

[drdougrx]

I disagree.  I use them on all kinds of animals and in all kinds of calibers, though, I use the heavier weights for caliber.  Except in 243, which I'm fairly positive is too lite for deer in my opinion, only my opinion.  I use them.  They don't blow up.  They don't remain in any animal I've shot.  They are accurate.  They break bones, at least on the dozens of assorted animals that I've used them on.  Really...use what you like.  What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you.  Doesn't make it wrong.

[264 WIN MAG]

I don't see how all these people have such good luck with ballistic tips either. I have tried them and my honest opinion is they blow! I tried several times to take a broadside shot on a whitetail with 120gr. ballistic tips from my 264 mag and every time I got the same result. The deer would take off like a bat out of hell, run about a mile, no blood trail...all the ones we did find the bullet had hit the shoulder blade, came apart, and didn't go much further...

I went and tried 140gr. as well and got the same result...

Now, my cousin tried them on his 308 and had good luck with them for a while...until he got the first one in the shoulder blade on a short shot...the bullet came apart. There was one entrance hole and about 10 exit wounds. After that he got rid of them and started shooting something else.

My grandfather had tried them in his 30/06. Worked good for a while until he hit one in the shoulder. Deer ran off and I tracked it down for him. There was one entrance wound and multiple exit wounds just like it had done for my cousin. He immediately switched to a different kind of bullet.

In my opinion I think they are "okay" rounds if your rifle shoots less than 2800fps, but anything from 2800fps to 3000fps is kind of "iffy" and anything over 3000fps is just going to blow up on impact.

My idea of what a bullet should do to a whiltetail is penetrate all the way through regardless of bullet placement...for a blood trail. It should hold a good bit of weight...for damage. Lastly it should perform consistently. There is no wonder the Partition is the most trusted bullet in hunting for so long. It penetrates, does fair damage, retains good weight, and is consistent.