The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!

[NONYA]

Saw an interesting episode of American hunter today where a Nosler rep told the host that the BT and Accubonds are DESIGNED to come apart on impact in order to deliver energy to the game.Guess their idea of a bonded bullet is different than mine,so they are performing AS DESIGNED when they "fail" by my standards.So by Nosler standards they "fail" when they dont come apart,now think about that!

[264 WIN MAG]

I'm thinking that 90% 0f this ballistic tip/any bullet failure is a failure on the part of the shooter. No less no more than that. Many people are too arrogant to accept the fact that they screwed up and made a bad shot!

Failure on the part of the shooter? Lol i tried the ballistic tip and tried to give it the benefit of the doubt. I assure you the bullets failure was not because of me. The deer that I shot with it (the ones we could find) were all hit perfectly in the shoulder. I shot one doe that the bullet performed well...the shot was 612 yards. After having to do major tracking on several deer I took down a couple with neck shots out to 400+ yards. I also took a coyote  at 450 yards (head shot)...I promise you it wasn't my shooting that was the problem.

Also I'd like to note that I have only had two bullets fail. Ballistic tip and Winchester super-x, both of which failed in my 264 consistently. I use the super-x bullets in my 270 and have yet to have a problem.

[NONYA]

Im sure they changed their idea of "bonded" when they realized their bullets are junk"they are supposed to come apart,some."LOL

[SHOOTALL]

What i have heard and read is that the front of the accubond  expands and dumps energy in the target while the rear part holds together and proceeds on thru. so the rep i don't believe was making excuses .
The BT is explosive to a point , i have not had a failure yet and have been using them for at least 20 years . although i load them in 30 , 7 and 25 i only hunt with the 25 ( so far ) the others were sil. loads . After 25 + deer i feel the bullet works well . Those that only shoot one animal and deem a bullet a failure are really showing a lack of knowledge of how to test , IE. it would take 30-50 or more shots in game to really get a model of how the bullet really worked . and 100's of shots to reach an accurate conclusion . One aspect not mentioned is if you got the critter it worked ! the wound channel , bang flop etc. are not only the bullet but the skill of the shooter and the physical condition ,and mental state of the target not to mention temperature and other conditions .
If you don't like the bullet don't use if but don't condemn it on one shot !

[PartsMan]

Saw an interesting episode of American hunter today where a Nosler rep told the host that the BT and Accubonds are DESIGNED to come apart on impact in order to deliver energy to the game.Guess their idea of a bonded bullet is different than mine,so they are performing AS DESIGNED when they "fail" by my standards.So by Nosler standards they "fail" when they dont come apart,now think about that!

I think you are starting to get it.

Did you really think they made all those different bullet designs to do the same thing?

Here, I will put them in order of penitration for you.
E-tip, Partition, Accubond, Solid base, Ballistic tip

[SHOOTALL]

Partsman , nice
some seem to choose wrong and blame it on the bullet !
guess they should pick worst case and live with what they pick on all the rest !

[jro45]

This is The way I see it [ Bullet Failure ] If the bullet goes to peases before entering entering the animal That is bullet failure. If it enters the Target and then goes to peases then that bullet did its job.

[SHOOTALL]

The way i see it if it kills the critter it worked !

[rickt300]

I have had great success using standard bullets, the ballistic tip being an enhanced expanding bullet kills pretty quick when used properly. Pushed to max velocity and used at short range sure you will get some meat damage and shallow penetration but most standard bullets are like that. After all you have to damage the deer to kill it and the more damage you do the quicker you reach that goal. Place that damage in the chest cavity and you will have little meat destruction as long as you stay away from the shoulders. Why people deliberatly shoot the meat bearing parts of game animals is beyond me, why not shoot into the neck in front of the shoulder? It is a pretty big target really for a good shot.

[Cheesehead]

Good point, even when using partitions or x bullets I shoot for the ribs behind the shoulder, because they also can ruin lots of meat, I do not expect perfection from any bullet.

Cheese

[NONYA]

NEVER seen a TSX destroy more meat than you should see from a 1 piece or bonded bullet.

[Cheesehead]

I seen a deer shot through both hams with a Barnes X bullet, the blue colored one from a 7mm Remington Mag. Almost all the meat was destroyed. There is no perfect bullet.

Cheese

[rickt300]

You can find something to bitch about with just about any bullet. My experiences with early Barnes x bullets soured me on them to this day. I don't want bullets that carry that much energy after they exit deer zinging around my lease and the owners cattle. i am happy with a bullet that barely exits or stays under the hide, blood trails have not been a huge factor in my hunting success but bullet placement has.  If you are so contingent on chasing blood trails you are doing something wrong.

[Brithunter]

Well I have used Ballistic Tips (originals) in two chamberings on Deer, 100 Grn in 6.5x55 and 165 Grn in .308 both worked but the 100 grn 6.5mm was a little fragile so I tried the 120 grn 6.5mm and it worked as well as a normal bullet. I stopped using them not due to failure but due to prejudice. Stalking here in the UK is more often let out, I book days or outings, an outing is either in the Morning or Evening especially for Roe and Muntjac Deer and a lot of the guides/gamekeepers don't like Ballistic Tips due to the meat damage they can cause. Unless yu pay for the carcase it remains the property of the estate and they sell it to the game dealer and a carcase with any bloodshot meat brings virtually nothing so lots of them refuse to allow the use of Ballistic Tips even if it's factory ammo.

I am now playing with some Ballistic Tips in the 6mm Remington and so far the 95 Grn Ballistic Tip has showed most promise grouping wise so unless I find a bullet and load which does better then it's what I will use in this rifle.

  As for bullet failures well I had one which I regarda as a pure failure despite recovering the carcase as the bullet was of teh size,weight and type which would normally have been chosen to use on large game like Elk yet it blew up on the ribs of a 35lb Roe Doe. Now if it blew up on such a light beast at around 90 yards what would it do on a 600 lb Elk? I doubt it would hav penetrated at all just leavinf a nasty superfiscial wound! So I didn't buy that bullet again and not that make for many years if I could get anything else. I am about to try the make again in a different calibre and style.

[264 WIN MAG]

NEVER seen a TSX destroy more meat than you should see from a 1 piece or bonded bullet.

I'm with Nonya on this one. The TSX is a good hunting bullet. It goes in small, exits small, and does a ton of damage internal. I don't think I've seen another bullet that consistently does the internal damage that the TSX did for me...and it penetrates almost 100% of the time.

[SHOOTALL]

I have a 7X30 waters and hunt with the federal load , there is only one and its the only factory load . it has a 120 gr. Nosler bullet , flat pt. not a special bullet by any stretch . I read all the time how it is such a bad bullet for the 7X30 .
Now i can't remember the number of deer i have taken with mine but it includes a 12 point , 1 -10 pt. , 2-8 pt , 1-6 pt ,2-4pt and lots of does ( helped a farmer with crop damage control ) . I have to tell ya not one time has it failed , most deer shot with it either fall dead or go less than 20 yds and fall dead . if the bones in the shoulder are hit the meat around them looks like jello . to date i have never recovered a bullet as none have remained in the animal . the entry hole is smaller than my little finger and the exit hole is between a quarter and a fifty cent piece . My point is this not everyone will like a bullet and not everyone will hate it ! and not every bullet from the same box will act the same way on every shot !
so in the end ya pays your money and ya takes your shot ! Hey my wife thinks the BT looks pretty with the colored tip !
and that's as good as some of the other reasons i have heard for bullet selection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coyote Hunter]

… Those that only shoot one animal and deem a bullet a failure are really showing a lack of knowledge of how to test , IE. it would take 30-50 or more shots in game to really get a model of how the bullet really worked . and 100's of shots to reach an accurate conclusion . …

Can’t agree with that.

My first big game animal was a bull elk taken with a 162g Hornady BTSP Interlock form a 7mm Rem Mag – about 2950fps at the muzzle and 125 yards to the elk.  The bullet hit on onside rib dead center and missed or barely nicked a rib on the off side.  In other words, the challenge to its integrity was not that great.  The bullet retained less than half its original weight.  The next year I switched to 160g Speer Grand Slams and it took 20 years to recover one.  When I did it had destroyed both shoulder joints of a 5x5 bull elk yet retained over 70% of its weight.  Much better performance in my book.

Barnes 160g XLC’s were the next bullet I tried.   They worked very well on a couple coyotes but one, shot at 100 yards, completely mystified me.  It dropped stone dead at the shot, hit in the chest on a broadside.  I never found the entrance or exit holes.  Before taking them elk hunting I tried them on a buck antelope.  The first bullet went through the chest broadside and cause the buck to lower its head and cough up blood for several minutes.  The second shot also went through the chest and caused the buck to lay down, although it kept its head up as if sunning itself.  I circled around the hill and got within 100 yards.  The buck struggled to its feet and tried to walk away.  A third XLC took out its heart.  Needless to say, I did NOT use them for elk hunting, and never will.

Based on reputation, my hunting buddy switched from Grand Slams to Trophy Bonded.  So far they have performed flawlessly.  I switched to North Fork and am also very happy.  Fortunately, we didn’t have to shoot “30-50 or more shots in game to really get a model of how the bullet really worked . and 100's of shots to reach an accurate conclusion”.  Instead we were able to learn from the experiences of others.

That first elk died, there’s no doubt about it.  But the Hornady Interlock failed to perform as I wanted, and there’s no doubt about that, either.  The XLC’s performed very poorly on antelope, didn’t need to shoot a second animal or dozens more to verify anything.  The Grand Slams, North Fork and Trophy Bonded my buddy and I use have an enviable record of dropping animals in their tracks.  The first shots impressed and they have continued to do so.

[SHOOTALL]

to have gotten the bullet back it did its job ! to compare both bullets you would have to arrange both to travel the same path which you can't !
ITS OK TO LIKE ONE OVER THE OTHER !
just gather more imfo before you judge !

[nomosendero]

Im sure they changed their idea of "bonded" when they realized their bullets are junk"they are supposed to come apart,some."LOL

Some, I like that. Yea, some in the front is good.

[Coyote Hunter]

to have gotten the bullet back it did its job ! to compare both bullets you would have to arrange both to travel the same path which you can't !
ITS OK TO LIKE ONE OVER THE OTHER !
just gather more imfo before you judge !

Don't need to know any more about the Hornady InterLock or XLC's.  Or about the Speer Grand Slam or North Forks.  Neither the InterLock or XLC performed well in my book, never had a Grand Slam or North Fork that didn't.  My buddy has never had a Trophy Bonded perform poorly, either.  Woudn't use an XLC for any game, ever again.  While I would consider an Interlock at low velocities, it is unlikely I would use one as I would lean toward an InterBond/AccuBond instead.

[Edited to correct 'TSX' to read 'XLC' in one instance.]

Don't need to crash my car 100 times to figure out its a bad idea...

[Todd1700]

Those that only shoot one animal and deem a bullet a failure are really showing a lack of knowledge of how to test , IE. it would take 30-50 or more shots in game to really get a model of how the bullet really worked . and 100's of shots to reach an accurate conclusion .

I'm with Coyote on this comment. It doesn't take me 30 to 50 times to sort out whether I'm getting the bullet performance I want on game. But my feelings are by no means based on one incident either. I've seen deer shot broadside behind the shoulder with BT's and found fragments of bullet as far away as the tenderloin. I've seen several small deer shot broadside behind the shoulder stop a BT when no bullet intended for deer should have failed to exit. I have seen deer have to be killed by a second shot after a BT blew up their shoulder. I have helped track deer shot with BT's and let me tell you, in some of our Alabama briar thickets a deer that runs even 125 yards can be a b###h to find at night with a flashlight if there is no bloodtrail to lead you straight to them. And to those who say that a bloodtrail isn't necessary with BT's because they always drop right there, you can spray that dookie on some rookie who doesn't know any better. A deer shot behind the shoulder might drop or it might run regardless of the type bullet being used. Maybe some of you are hunting in the middle of a 4000 acre field where you can watch them drop no matter how far they run so a blood trail doesn't matter. But where I hunt a deer that manages to stay on it's feet for even 10 seconds after the shot can get into some nasty places. Places that believe me you don't want to have to stomp over every inch of to find them. Much easier to follow a trail of blood straight to an animal buried in a briar thicket than it is to grid pattern search that sucker in the dark looking for them.

And then there is the lost animals. Friend of mine who I know can shoot, shot a deer from a shooting house one year. Shot distance was 60 yards on a nice 7 point. Rifle was a 7mm-08 using 140 gr BT's. Deer dropped like a stone at the shot. My friend gathered up his stuff; closed the shooting house windows; and exited the back of the shooting house. When he walked around into the green patch, the deer was gone. He searched the edges of the green patch for hours and never found a drop of blood. I went back with him the next day and we searched half a day for any sign. Nothing! Now you can say he made a bad shot and since we didn't find the deer I can't definatively prove you wrong. But a check of his rifle at the range verified his scope was on and this guy is an excellent shot with a rifle. I find it hard to believe that from a rested position in a shooting house he fudged a 60 yard broadside shot. And deer don't usually hit the ground from a bad shot. It was his first year using BT"s and he had never had anything like that happen before. He has never used them since and has also never had another problem.

Another friend, shot a huge buck from a tree stand one year. Deer was quartering hard towards him. Shot distance 50 yards. Gun was a 30-06 with a 150 grain BT. He aimed at the front shoulder and an angle that should have exited in the offside ribs. Deer nearly cut a flip at the shot but righted itself and hauled @$$. There was hair, a little flesh and fragments of bone where the deer was standing. But very little blood. The blood quickly petered out and the deer was never found. Again, the first year using ballistic tips. Guy had never lost a deer with a gun in his adult life until that episode. Threw the ballistic tips away after that and hasn't lost one since.

Use em all you like but they are a varmint bullet as far as I'm concerned. Someone in this thread mentioned "knowing when and how to use them". I'll tell ya when and how to use them. When you are set up about 300 yards off a Prairie dog mound. That's when to use them.

[rickt300]

On the 140 grain BT I think he should have waited and watched the deer for a while, from the damage I have seen so far from Ballistic Tips I don't think he hit the deer solidly. The shoulder hit using the 150 grain Ballistic Tip, why did he take an angling shot into the shoulder with a bullet known for it's fast expansion characteristics, why not wait for a more broadside presentation or shoot for the neck in front of the shoulder? Another question, why use a bullet at top velocities for hunting where your shot is going to be under 60 yards. I knew my shots on deer were going to be at less than 150 yards so I used a load that gave me a bit less than 2700 fps at the muzzle so I wouldn't experience poor penetration. When I get my 308 set up I'll load the 165 gr. Ballistic Tips to around 2500 fps. This should provide very good performance out past 200 yards and be reasonable up close. Another thing shooting into a shoulder at an angle is risky with any bullet as the shoulder can easily deflect the bullit out from the deer and you end up with a wounded deer which has fully functional lungs and heart. You can't take the shooter quotiant out of the picture and just blame the bullet, even good shots make mistakes.

[Cheesehead]

Just minutes ago, my brother hangs two deer in my garage, both shot with 180 bt from his 300 mag. One inch entrance, 3 inch exit all in the ribs , no problem.

Cheese

[NONYA]

Those that only shoot one animal and deem a bullet a failure are really showing a lack of knowledge of how to test , IE. it would take 30-50 or more shots in game to really get a model of how the bullet really worked . and 100's of shots to reach an accurate conclusion .

I'm with Coyote on this comment. It doesn't take me 30 to 50 times to sort out whether I'm getting the bullet performance I want on game. But my feelings are by no means based on one incident either. I've seen deer shot broadside behind the shoulder with BT's and found fragments of bullet as far away as the tenderloin. I've seen several small deer shot broadside behind the shoulder stop a BT when no bullet intended for deer should have failed to exit. I have seen deer have to be killed by a second shot after a BT blew up their shoulder. I have helped track deer shot with BT's and let me tell you, in some of our Alabama briar thickets a deer that runs even 125 yards can be a b###h to find at night with a flashlight if there is no bloodtrail to lead you straight to them. And to those who say that a bloodtrail isn't necessary with BT's because they always drop right there, you can spray that dookie on some rookie who doesn't know any better. A deer shot behind the shoulder might drop or it might run regardless of the type bullet being used. Maybe some of you are hunting in the middle of a 4000 acre field where you can watch them drop no matter how far they run so a blood trail doesn't matter. But where I hunt a deer that manages to stay on it's feet for even 10 seconds after the shot can get into some nasty places. Places that believe me you don't want to have to stomp over every inch of to find them. Much easier to follow a trail of blood straight to an animal buried in a briar thicket than it is to grid pattern search that sucker in the dark looking for them.

And then there is the lost animals. Friend of mine who I know can shoot, shot a deer from a shooting house one year. Shot distance was 60 yards on a nice 7 point. Rifle was a 7mm-08 using 140 gr BT's. Deer dropped like a stone at the shot. My friend gathered up his stuff; closed the shooting house windows; and exited the back of the shooting house. When he walked around into the green patch, the deer was gone. He searched the edges of the green patch for hours and never found a drop of blood. I went back with him the next day and we searched half a day for any sign. Nothing! Now you can say he made a bad shot and since we didn't find the deer I can't definatively prove you wrong. But a check of his rifle at the range verified his scope was on and this guy is an excellent shot with a rifle. I find it hard to believe that from a rested position in a shooting house he fudged a 60 yard broadside shot. And deer don't usually hit the ground from a bad shot. It was his first year using BT"s and he had never had anything like that happen before. He has never used them since and has also never had another problem.

Another friend, shot a huge buck from a tree stand one year. Deer was quartering hard towards him. Shot distance 50 yards. Gun was a 30-06 with a 150 grain BT. He aimed at the front shoulder and an angle that should have exited in the offside ribs. Deer nearly cut a flip at the shot but righted itself and hauled @$$. There was hair, a little flesh and fragments of bone where the deer was standing. But very little blood. The blood quickly petered out and the deer was never found. Again, the first year using ballistic tips. Guy had never lost a deer with a gun in his adult life until that episode. Threw the ballistic tips away after that and hasn't lost one since.

Use em all you like but they are a varmint bullet as far as I'm concerned. Someone in this thread mentioned "knowing when and how to use them". I'll tell ya when and how to use them. When you are set up about 300 yards off a Prairie dog mound. That's when to use them.

This is EXACTLY why I quit using them on game,they may kill a fawn antelope when they FAIL but a mature buck or elk is a different matter,the fragmented bullet didnt penetrate far enough to be vital in a SHORT  period of time,that deer ran far off and died a slow death.Just because they make big holes and kill game in certain conditions doesn't make them a good hunting bullet.Varmints and paper is all I will ever fire them at after my most recent FAILURE.

[rickt300]

And the judge rules, with little circumstantial evidence and no body, guilty, death by lethal injection.

[NONYA]

I have PLENTY of evidence.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

What caliber was that?

Jim

[Todd1700]

why not wait for a more broadside presentation or shoot for the neck in front of the shoulder?

Because with the big bucks in the thick woods we hunt you are not always going to get a better shot angle. I bow hunt quite a bit. And when I do I am perfectly willing to wait for only perfect shot angles. If I don't have one then I don't take the shot. I consider it part of the challenge of bow hunting. But when I carry a high powered rifle in the woods I do not expect to have to wait for such perfect shots. Thankfully, with the right bullet I don't have to let big bucks walk for lack of a perfect broadside shot.

Another question, why use a bullet at top velocities for hunting where your shot is going to be under 60 yards.

Better question: Why use a bullet that is so fragile that you can't take a less than 100 yard shot from a non-magnum rifle at even modest factory load velocities? And the answer is: "we don't anymore."

[rickt300]

I wouldn't call factory 30-06 150 grain velocities "modest" and as far as you know the angling shoulder shot might not have been correctly placed or angled into the deer.  The deer hit with the 7-08, no one has any idea where it was hit. And by the way that looks like a pretty dead antelope with a nasty hole. If you are not willing to use a bullet for what it is designed for and within it's proper impact velocities then don't use it.  I wouldn't reccomend the lighter ballistic tips for close range woods hunting unless you pick your shots and keep muzzle velocities under 2700 fps.

[NONYA]

Jim

7mm RM,bullet didn't penetrate past the shoulder blade.