Author Topic: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!  (Read 7427 times)

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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2007, 03:03:29 PM »
…  The shoulder hit using the 150 grain Ballistic Tip, why did he take an angling shot into the shoulder with a bullet known for it's fast expansion characteristics, why not wait for a more broadside presentation or shoot for the neck in front of the shoulder? Another question, why use a bullet at top velocities for hunting where your shot is going to be under 60 yards…

So, the “Outstanding Ballistic Tip”…

1.   Should not be used for a quartering shot but rather the shooter should wait for “a more broadside presentation or shoot for the neck”.
2.   Should not be loaded to top velocities when shots will be under 60 yards.  (Are we talking top velocities for a.308 Win, .30-06 or a magnum here?  Or all the above?)

Thanks, but I never know for sure in advance whether my shots will be 10 yards or several hundred.  And while I have a good record of taking predominately broadside shots, sometimes they are simply never presented.  I prefer to use a bullet that will work reliably a high percentage of the time.  It may well be that no bullet is perfect, but some are much closer to perfection than others in my book.

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Offline rickt300

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2007, 03:23:45 PM »
Yeah I guess if I couldn't manage a little finesse I'd shoot partitions, Barnes x or Northforks myself to cover my inability to perfectly place my shot or my lack of patience. If you are still in the phase where you have to hurry every shot, take any shot you get then by all means use something else.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2007, 07:30:54 PM »
Yeah I guess if I couldn't manage a little finesse I'd shoot partitions, Barnes x or Northforks myself to cover my inability to perfectly place my shot or my lack of patience. If you are still in the phase where you have to hurry every shot, take any shot you get then by all means use something else.

Finesse, like getting closer,  is not always an option.  Sometimes you must take the shot that is offered or wait until next year. 

Hurry every shot?  Not hardly.  In one case I waited 6 hours for the shot to develop.  When it did it was at 350 yards and I used a full-speed 7mm Rem Mag load, not some sub-velocity load designed to make sure the bullet didn’t fail.  The vast majority of my shots are broadside, or very nearly so, as were the two elk this year and, going back to the year 2000, the five before them.  That said, things can go wrong as happened with my buck this year.  An easy  quartering away shot went south when the buck stepped forward as the trigger broke.  Instead of hitting behind the ribs the bullet hit the right ham.  The 140g North Fork was launched at 3200fps and hit at an estimated 2900fps, mushroomed perfectly, and retained  93.7% of its original weight while penetrating over 3 feet.  (A picture is shown on page 1 of this thread.)  Not surprisingly, the deer dropped in its tracks.  I have zero confidence a BT would have performed as well, and based on your suggestion to keep BT muzzle velocities under 2700fps apparently you share that concern.

Take any shot you get?  No, but on the other hand I don’t have to pass simply because the shot offered isn’t a perfect broadside.  That’s the advantage bullets like the North Fork, Trophy Bonded, A-Frame or TSX offer – reliable but controlled expansion with deep penetration as the result.  Unlike the BT, none of these will blow up on a shoulder, regardless of impact speed.

If you like BTs feel free to use them.  Keep your velocities low if that’s what you need to do to feel confident that they won’t blow up.  Nonya’s photo is graphic proof of why low velocities for the BT may be a very good idea. 

For myself, I’ll continue to use better bullets, load my rifles to their potential, and take shots with confidence even if they are not perfect broadsides.  Neck shots?  No thanks, not with any bullet, but you’re welcome to take all you want.

By the way, trying to impune other people’s ability (“couldn't manage a little finesse”, “inability to perfectly place my shot”, “lack of patience”, “hurry every shot, take any shot”) doesn’t advance your argument in favor of the BT.  As do personal attacks in general, it simply suggests that you have no logical arguments on which to base your case.


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Offline rickt300

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2007, 02:36:18 AM »
Personal attack? "If" was in the sentence. No comment was directed at you personally or anyone else. The neck just in front of the shoulder is a large target and hitting them there will bring any animal right down.  Realizing a bullets limitations and keeping that bullet inside those boundries, any bullet will perform very well. The next two ballistic tips that i am launching at game will be outside thos limitations. I am going to shoot 2 does with the 95 grain 6MM balistic tip pushed to a bit over 3000 fps. Distance will surely be under 100 yards but they will be placed in the ribs or the neck just in front of the shoulder. I'll bet I get perfect results and I'll report on it either way with no bias. I am not counting on an exit hole nor am I planning to shatter both shoulders so most likely things will work out just fine.
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Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2007, 08:53:23 PM »
Yeah I guess if I couldn't manage a little finesse I'd shoot partitions, Barnes x or Northforks myself to cover my inability to perfectly place my shot or my lack of patience. If you are still in the phase where you have to hurry every shot, take any shot you get then by all means use something else.

Finesse, like getting closer,  is not always an option.  Sometimes you must take the shot that is offered or wait until next year. 

Hurry every shot?  Not hardly.  In one case I waited 6 hours for the shot to develop.  When it did it was at 350 yards and I used a full-speed 7mm Rem Mag load, not some sub-velocity load designed to make sure the bullet didn’t fail.  The vast majority of my shots are broadside, or very nearly so, as were the two elk this year and, going back to the year 2000, the five before them.  That said, things can go wrong as happened with my buck this year.  An easy  quartering away shot went south when the buck stepped forward as the trigger broke.  Instead of hitting behind the ribs the bullet hit the right ham.  The 140g North Fork was launched at 3200fps and hit at an estimated 2900fps, mushroomed perfectly, and retained  93.7% of its original weight while penetrating over 3 feet.  (A picture is shown on page 1 of this thread.)  Not surprisingly, the deer dropped in its tracks.  I have zero confidence a BT would have performed as well, and based on your suggestion to keep BT muzzle velocities under 2700fps apparently you share that concern.

Take any shot you get?  No, but on the other hand I don’t have to pass simply because the shot offered isn’t a perfect broadside.  That’s the advantage bullets like the North Fork, Trophy Bonded, A-Frame or TSX offer – reliable but controlled expansion with deep penetration as the result.  Unlike the BT, none of these will blow up on a shoulder, regardless of impact speed.

If you like BTs feel free to use them.  Keep your velocities low if that’s what you need to do to feel confident that they won’t blow up.  Nonya’s photo is graphic proof of why low velocities for the BT may be a very good idea. 

For myself, I’ll continue to use better bullets, load my rifles to their potential, and take shots with confidence even if they are not perfect broadsides.  Neck shots?  No thanks, not with any bullet, but you’re welcome to take all you want.

By the way, trying to impune other people’s ability (“couldn't manage a little finesse”, “inability to perfectly place my shot”, “lack of patience”, “hurry every shot, take any shot”) doesn’t advance your argument in favor of the BT.  As do personal attacks in general, it simply suggests that you have no logical arguments on which to base your case.



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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2007, 12:21:54 AM »
I ended a 300# Hog's argument with a BT several years ago. Whether the Hog was being logical about it or not, I didn't have time to check.   ;D
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Offline rickt300

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #96 on: November 20, 2007, 05:23:39 AM »
Nonya, I have two weights of ballistic tips on the shelf, 140's and 150's. I also have a 7MM RM. which weight and at what velocity were you pushing it at to get your doe antelope result. I could try to duplicate your test while filling my two doe deer tags in december and see if my results are as dismal as yours were. What was the range at impact?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #97 on: November 20, 2007, 05:50:51 AM »
every one has an opinion , and most could be correct , MAYBE !
if you load and test in warm weather and hunt in cold temp. then you may have lost some velocity maybe quite a bit !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #98 on: November 20, 2007, 08:47:51 AM »
.284 150 (EDITED) gr at just under 3000 fps ,at or just over 100 yards.Did you guys know that Nosler only recommends the heaviest bullet in each caliber for hunting Big game?They dont advertise it but thats what they told me when I complained about their accubonds,so only the heaviest bullet is even recommended by the manufacturer,they dont put that in their adds or on the box do they?
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Offline rickt300

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #99 on: November 20, 2007, 10:01:40 AM »
I can find no reference that Nosler makes any 7MM Ballistic tip weighing more than 150 grains but they do make a 160 grain Accubond. So it was an Accubond?
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Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #100 on: November 20, 2007, 11:17:32 AM »
My bad Rick it was a 150,it was a COMBINED TECHNOLOGY Nosler which I was told by the experts here is nothing more than a BT painted black.
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Offline corbanzo

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #101 on: November 20, 2007, 02:56:38 PM »
Supposidely....  They made the wall thicker on the jacket when they made the new BT's (combined technology) for hunting larger game...  Which would make expansion a little slower....  but wouldn't help at all in the event of jacket separation. 

But hey, saying a bullet won't kill an animal is a pretty far fetched idea.....  So I guess everybody is right. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #102 on: November 20, 2007, 02:57:50 PM »
Killing them and killing them quickly enough to retrieve them is my concern.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #103 on: November 20, 2007, 03:05:00 PM »
.284 150 (EDITED) gr at just under 3000 fps ,at or just over 100 yards.Did you guys know that Nosler only recommends the heaviest bullet in each caliber for hunting Big game?They dont advertise it but thats what they told me when I complained about their accubonds,so only the heaviest bullet is even recommended by the manufacturer,they dont put that in their adds or on the box do they?

No, I did not know that & as a matter of fact, I still don't. Why would they insist that you use the heaviest bullet in a given caliber as a general rule?
And even Accubonds? Why would they insist that you use only the 200gr. Acc. with a 308, or even insist on a 180? Which Nosler rep. said that?

I loaded up some 270cal. 140gr. Accubonds for our WY. trip. We harvested 3 Mule Deer & 3 Buck Antelope with that bullet & the animals were harvested from a range of 80 yards up to 410 yards. All were pass throughs with very good wound channels. I guess that Nosler should have warned me to use the 150gr. BT or 160Part. since they are heavier.
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Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #104 on: November 20, 2007, 04:12:53 PM »
They don't insist anything,they RECOMMEND only the heaviest bullet in each caliber for BG hunting,that was direct from a Nosler rep.Im sure the reason is that it has the best chance of staying together and will usually be fired at the slowest speed of all the weights,any way they dont tell you this in ANY of their adds.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #105 on: November 20, 2007, 04:36:07 PM »
In their best interest they should RECOMMEND what works best in their adds, why wouldn't they? They might think it would be common sense to not use a 150 gr. BT in a RUM at 3,800fps, but they might assume too much for some folks.  ::) Again, that does not mean you need a heavy in a 308, the 165 works great in that vel. range, my cousin & his boys killed 30 or more Deer with that combo with ZERO problems.
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Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #106 on: November 20, 2007, 06:30:42 PM »
      Ballistic Tips are the GREATEST bullets to discuss online!  Seems like two people shooting the same bullet at same impact velocity will have totally different performance.

Jim
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Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #107 on: November 20, 2007, 06:51:06 PM »
I have had a percentage of them work just as advertised,they stayed together and had good penetration,it was a minority of them though.
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Offline rickt300

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #108 on: November 21, 2007, 04:42:12 AM »
Weel then 66.0 grains of Reloder 22 and the 150 grain Ballistic tip will get around 3000 fps. Mine are the uncoated CT BT's you can get at the Shooter's pro shop but that shouldn't make much difference. Test to be completed when it finally gets cold sometime in december.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #109 on: November 21, 2007, 08:14:37 AM »

I don't think we ever get the same exact degree's of expansion from different animals with the same bullet...Similar yes...but never exact...Each animal bone & muscle density is different...no 2 animals are standing in the same exact position..each animal has varying degrees of internal matter..and hide thickness...

Nonya...I really don't know which Nosler rep you were talking to...but what your getting from him leads me to suspect he's not got all of his facts correct...and is misleading you...or your misinterpreting what was said to you..No where has Nosler ever stated the Accubonds were designed to blow up...Nosler claims to the thicker bullet jackets are always for the heavier bullets in that caliber...or for calibers above .338 diameter......in which BT's can be used for larger game...not for the lighter bullets...Most folks who know they will be shooting at close range...or have the possibility of shooting at both short range & long range usually use a bonded Accubond or Partition... If you have access to it...read page #10 in the #5 Nosler reloading manual...there it gives you a complete description of the Combined Technologies bullets..and on page #61 is an article by Layne Simpson in which he states " With it's extremely thick jacket,the .338 caliber Ballistic Tip should work fine on game as large as elk and moose,especially when shots are taken at long range..."...Even here he isn't saying for shots under 100 yards...although on a whitetail or very small antelope it would work well...

Since you have switched over to the triple shocks...this matters little I am sure...but know this...In the right application...where you know you will be shooting out to 400-600 yards...most of the BT's will work fine for you on coyotes,antelope or deer...and are the most economical way to go...If...you might jump something close...go with a heavier constructed bullet...it's that simple...If I had to choose 1 bullet from the Nosler line up to use for all my big game hunting...it would be one of the partitions...I've never had one fail...ever...
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Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #110 on: November 21, 2007, 01:46:27 PM »
I have and it wont ever happen again....
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Offline luv2shoot

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #111 on: November 21, 2007, 03:53:01 PM »
Pardon me as I rush to the shop to Exorcise it from all the EVIL Nosler Bullets
If it Feels Good, Shoot it Again!!!!

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #112 on: November 21, 2007, 06:42:16 PM »
Pardon me as I rush to the shop to Exorcise it from all the EVIL Nosler Bullets

Nothing wrong per se with Nosler bullets.  The Partitions are a very good bullet (although there are better bullets available these days), the AccuBonds are better than cup-and-core bullets and the Ballistic Tips are no worse than other cup-and-core bullets.  Stay within the design parameters of a bullet and chances are it will work well.  Push the envelope and you're asking for trouble.
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Offline jro45

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #113 on: November 22, 2007, 01:51:14 AM »
My self I don't like Ballistic Tip bullets, They make a larger exit hole and rune more meat. There For I don't shoot them

Offline rickt300

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #114 on: November 22, 2007, 04:05:57 AM »
I like all accurate bullets. I like bullets that kill quickly. Using Nosler Ballistic Tips as I do I don't get much damaged meat and the damage they do helps greatly with quick kills.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #115 on: November 22, 2007, 07:59:53 AM »
My self I don't like Ballistic Tip bullets, They make a larger exit hole and rune more meat. There For I don't shoot them

I don't eat Lungs anyway.
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Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #116 on: November 22, 2007, 08:59:12 AM »
My self I don't like Ballistic Tip bullets, They make a larger exit hole and rune more meat. There For I don't shoot them

I don't eat Lungs anyway.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Todd1700

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #117 on: November 23, 2007, 07:44:08 PM »
Quote
I don't eat Lungs anyway.

You will be eating them if you don't pick the fragments of lung out of the tenderloins after a ballistic tip explosion.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #118 on: November 24, 2007, 12:46:01 AM »
Quote
I don't eat Lungs anyway.

You will be eating them if you don't pick the fragments of lung out of the tenderloins after a ballistic tip explosion.

Nope, I have killed a bunch of Bucks with the BT & it hasn't happened yet. Please explain why it will happen now. How would you have fragments of lung in a tenderloin? The meat is much more dense than lung tissue, it would be impossible. Pretty goofy remark.
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Offline NONYA

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Re: The Oustanding Ballistic Tip!
« Reply #119 on: November 24, 2007, 07:13:31 AM »
Because they have a tendency to EXPLODE on impact and spread fragments of the bullet throughout you game,if you never shoot them near the 300 fps mark you may never have a problem with them,but for those of us who have and have seen how they DONT perform we have learned a lesson you will eventually if you shoot enough game with them.Many of you are ok with a low budget hunting bullet that explodes and makes huge impressive wound channels that may or may not result in a recovered animal,many of us are not.
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