Author Topic: .358 Winchester re-chamber out of .357 barrel? (Read 2164 times)

MtJerry · « **on:** November 08, 2007, 09:02:01 AM »

I just can't get this out of my head. What are your thoughts of a .358 Winchester from a re-chambered .357 Barrel?

Can the Handi frame take it?

Jerry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** November 08, 2007, 09:51:30 AM »

Why not, the Handi comes factory chambered in .308, 30-06 and 35 Whelen.

The only issue you might have is the slow 18¾" twist rate, but given the right bullets, should be fine, it will stabilize 240gr FN bullets in my 35 Remington Handi, probably not spitzers tho. I wouldn't use it on a pre-'99 SB2 frame tho.

Tim

44 Man · « **Reply #2 on:** November 08, 2007, 10:02:03 AM »

Quick, was the Handi offered in 35 Rem, or did you re-chamber to get it? I have a Marlin in that and I'd love a Handi also! 44 Man

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 08, 2007, 10:05:32 AM »

Wayne did the rechamber for me, it's never been a factory option!!

Tim

http://home.earthlink.net/~oregunsmithing/

Couger · « **Reply #4 on:** November 08, 2007, 09:04:56 PM »

I wouldn't use a 18.75-twist .357 barrel as the donor barrel for a .358 Winnie. The .358W and .35 Whelen always have 1-12, or 1-14, or 1-16 twist barrels.

I've never used the .358W, but have studied the possibility. On paper and everything I heard or read is POSITIVE!

I have a .308-Survivor bbl that would be a better donor if I had it rebored, but haven't decided to make that sacrifice yet.

Do you have another donor barrel you could use. Why not go that route if you reall want a .358W "shooter?"

At the very least, use a twist similar to what a .35 Remington would need, which Hornady#5 says is a 1-16 twist

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 08, 2007, 11:27:43 PM »

As pointed out by Couger and Quickdtoo, the twist rate will limit the bullets you can use. I am sure they will handle the 200 grain stuff. Heavier bullets probably will not stabilize (250 grain). If you are careful with your bullet selection and hand load, then I think you would be OK.

db22 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 09, 2007, 01:24:32 AM »

My .357 Max shoots the old Lyman 358318 with nary a tumble, so far. This is a long round-nose that was developed for the old .35 WCF cartridge almost a century ago. Weighs about 245 grains using Lyman #2 alloy and a gas check. The loaded round is good for a laugh -- looks like a .357 Mag on steroids.

I was given this mold by an old hunting buddy who quit casting. He used it in a bolt-action .350 Remington Magnum with good results, but it had a 16" twist at least. I tried in my Max as a desperation measure -- the chamber throat is so long that no bullet can be seated out enough to approach the lands, even after the rechamber to Max. Accuracy is surprisingly good. I hope to chrono the load next spring and see how fast it's going. Even at 100 yards, I'm yet to see a keyhole. Wonders never cease!!

If I can get good results at .357 Max velocities with a bullet a long as this, my guess is you will be okay with the .358 Winchester. I've often thought the .358 would be the perfect cast-bullet deer round for a bolt-action, and should be a winner in a Handi, as long as you don't suffer headspace or extraction troubles.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 09, 2007, 05:10:20 AM »

It gets real old with people perpetuating the slow-twist-won't-work-for-big-bullets myth with the .35 cals, I've read and been told that 250gr spitzers won't stabilize in the 1:16" Whelen, but mine shoots the 250gr SGK very well, as does my 35 Remington with 240gr flatnose bullets, at least to 200yds, if may not to 300yds tho, but I suspect the 358W would do fine also. And I can think of 300 reasons why a rebore wouldn't be my first choice if I could avoid it!!

Tim

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 09, 2007, 05:44:31 AM »

Tim is correct...It is not the weight of the bullet, it is the length that is key to twist rates and bullet stabilization no matter the caliber. As Tim has pointed out a 240 grain flat nose will stabilize in his 35 Remington, but probably a spitzer in the same weight, would not. This is because the spitzer is much longer than a flat or round nose bullet. I was referring to 250 spitzers before. There are a lot of people that do not think that the twist rate (1 - 38") of a Handi in 44 Mag will stabilize a 300 grain bullet, but they do it all of the time (of course they are flat nosed). I think that generally you want as slow of a twist rate as possible that will stabilize a bullet. Over spinning a bullet reduces velocities, increases pressure, and strips lead bullets easier. You do not want a 1-7" twist in a .224 caliber and then shoot 40 grain bullets through it. It works, but not as well as a 1- 14" or 1- 16" twist. Those twist rates were made for VLD bullets of 70- 80 grain weight. If it was better to have fast twists, they would make 22 rim fires a 1-10" twist instead of an industry standard of 1 - 16" twist. It has been found that a 1-16" twist is plenty for the round nose bullets of 40 grains. Length not weight is the determining factor for best twist rates. I would suspect that 200 grain bullets would shoot better at 1 - 18 3/4" than it does at 1 - 14" for instance. One other thing that is myth, once a bullet is spinning at certain rate (RPS) it will slow down very little between the muzzle and 1000 yards. So once it is spinning and stable, it will be that way until it reaches it's final destination be it at 100 yards or 500 yards. The only exception would be if it is at the very, very edge of being stable to start with, because again it slows down in spin rate very very little in the course of flight.

Couger · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2007, 05:14:26 PM »

Yeah, it gets VERY OLD that certain individuals think they are the final word on anything that has to do with Handi-Rifles.

If I was building or having a rifle or barrel modified to .358W, I'd make darn certain I had a 1-16 twist so my rifle (or barrel) could shoot consistently and accurately the heavier and longer .358 bullets (225's and 250's). Those persons who think they can "guarantee" what successes a slower twist will do, what are they going to say if things don't work?

Errrr ..... ahhh ..... saurrrrrrrreeeeeeee!

Lotta good they do.

Right?

Gun companies choose 1 - 16, 1 - 14, or 1 -12 .358-twists for a reason. Probably something to do with conventional wisdom in that caliber, and what has been consistent for them and not guesswork! Gun companies can't afford to pizzoff many customers if they expect to have loyal patrons and positive name-recognition.!

MtJerry, Carefully study what you're proposing to do to come up in a .358W shooter, but follow your own judgment.

MtJerry · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2007, 03:30:51 AM »

I have been watching this ever the last few days and I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

Cougar, don't let this thread get you too riled up ... this is just a thread to think out loud. Others will have different opinions and that's the joy of the gun forum ... toss things around and look at them from a lot of angles before you make a choice. I have taken your words to heart as I have the others.

I should have pointed out at the beginning that I have a particular bullet in mind for this project if I choose to pursue it.

Lyman 358315 - I have one that is a hollow-point version

My goal is to get this shooting around 2000fps.

I have a pre-81 Browning BLR in 358 that I have been playing with over the past year and I have come to really appreciate the round itself.

I know the 1:18 twist is a bit slow, but this bullet already works very well out of that twist now in my 357 max and I am pushing it to 1800fps and getting wonderful accuracy.

jpshaw · « **Reply #11 on:** November 11, 2007, 08:37:06 AM »

Just wondering if the .357 bore diameter would be a problem since I thought the .358 was a true .358 bore.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2007, 09:27:42 AM »

Jerry, that looks like fun, be sure to let us know if you follow thru with the rechamber. I considered rechambering my 357 Max to 35 Whelen at one time before I bought the RMEF from Wally, it would be great to see you do the .358W.

JP, I don't think there is such a thing as a "true" .357" or .358" bore, dimensions in rifle bores can vary enough that the standard for either is moot concerning the .001" difference. If a bore was at the extreme end of the SAAMI tolerance, you might have an accuracy problem, particularly with light loads, such as seen in the older overbore 44mag barrels which won't shoot .430" bullets well, let alone .429" bullets. FWIW, the Hornady 180gr .358" SSP bullet shoots very well in the .357max Handi.

Tim

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?ps_session=c3c73a84ff4b964dab064e5ead5f3019&page=shop%2Fbrowse&category_id=70a419acca0fbe6e9e40dc6781621989

MtJerry · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2007, 11:48:29 AM »

Quote

before I bought the RMEF from Wally

On that note, I saw a nice yellow-laminate NEF in 30-40 just a day ago on a used rack in town. I know where (who) it came from, I just cannot afford it right now. And it's buggin' me really bad. That gun needs to go to a nice home.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2007, 11:50:46 AM »

It sure does, would be real nice if we could "keep em in the family"!!

Tim

This one?

MtJerry · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2007, 02:18:31 PM »

That be the one, scope and all ... just looking at it makes me misty.

Couger · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2007, 06:48:25 PM »

Quote from: MtJerry on November 11, 2007, 03:30:51 AM

I have been watching this ever the last few days and I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

Cougar, don't let this thread get you too riled up ... this is just a thread to think out loud. Others will have different opinions and that's the joy of the gun forum ... toss things around and look at them from a lot of angles before you make a choice. I have taken your words to heart as I have the others.

I should have pointed out at the beginning that I have a particular bullet in mind for this project if I choose to pursue it.

Lyman 358315 - I have one that is a hollow-point version. My goal is to get this shooting around 2000fps.

I have a pre-81 Browning BLR in 358 that I have been playing with over the past year and I have come to really appreciate the round itself.

I know the 1:18 twist is a bit slow, but this bullet already works very well out of that twist now in my 357 max and I am pushing it to 1800fps and getting wonderful accuracy.

Thanks Jerry. I appreciate your kind words and support.

What weight is that Lyman bullet? Did you cast them yourself? It looks like a good 'pill!'

Funny you should mention the Browning BLR, I have a lot of respect for that rifle. I have also thought about getting a BLR in .358, and even .308 - and although I'm not a big lever fan. Bet that rifle makes for a fine saddle gun (if used in that role) as well as a good brush and tree stand piece. Are you using an optic? Or open sights?

MtJerry · « **Reply #17 on:** November 12, 2007, 03:43:10 AM »

That boolit weighs out at 204gr with the gas check.

I did cast them myself, but I have only been casting about a year and a half.

I used that boolit on opening day here in Montana to take a nice meat-doe at 135 yards with my 357 Max.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2007, 12:35:09 PM »

Quote

JP, I don't think there is such a thing as a "true" .357" or .358" bore, dimensions in rifle bores can vary enough that the standard for either is moot concerning the .001" difference.

Sure there is...Just ask S.A.M.M.I. about it...that's all they shoot

We just don't hardly ever get the same twice...and not to mention depth of the rifling...how smooth it is...wither the chamber is ok...Way to many variables to worry about .001" difference for those fine looking cast bullets there...

I hope they do well for you MtJerry...

Mac

MtJerry · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2007, 05:13:07 PM »

Thanks Mac, I have come to learn that for microgroove barrels to shoot cast accurately, they need to be sized at, or .002 over groove diameter.

I am sizing these boolits at .358 already ... I'd try .359 if I could.

BTW Cougar, I am using a nikon 3 x 9 for glass and have a zero is 250 yards and only drop 6 inches at 300. My BLR is not a brush gun by any means.

db22 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 02, 2007, 02:56:46 PM »

MTJerry: I have just started sizing my .357 Max cast bullets to .359", so far with good results. My Handi bore slugs at .357", but it has a very long throat. Accuracy was just as good shooting .359" seated normally, as it was at .358", seated way out to approach the origin of the rifling more closely.

I have tried the Lyman 358627 at .359" so far, seated to the crimp groove. It's a heavy Keith-style bullet, about 215 grains, and has done well over a slightly compressed charge of Reloder 7. The goal is to develop a durable cast deer load with no exposed lube for my Max. I'm going to try H4227 in the spring (load testing is on hold for the interval of our cold, snowy winter). I want to give .358" jacketed bullets a try, too.