What happens when there is no heat this winter

[Sourdough]

As you all know the price of heating oil just took another spike.  What happens when people can't fill the oil tanks this winter and they no longer have heat.  Here in Alaska that is a real problem.  When the heat goes out the house freezes up.  That house is then lost till spring.  The trap at each plumbing fixture will freeze and burst, including toilets.  All the water pipes will freeze and burst.  All the heat pipes will do the same.  That house will be uninhabitable till spring thaw, and all the plumbing can be replaced. 

Last year the fuel oil supply companies said that there had many customers that had oil delivered.  Those customers then made two of three payments, then  called for more oil, they had already ran out.  The oil company made the delivery, now the customer had four payments to make.  Three new ones and the remaining balance from the previous delivery.  In April the temp is usually warm enough no one calls for oil till fall.  But those people that were behind, did not get caught up till September in most cases.  The oil companies said they will be unable to make deliveries this winter if the customer is behind on payments.  With the sudden spikes in fuel oil prices I for-see that many people will be caught in that situation this winter.  I feel that there will be several families this winter that will have to abandon their homes due to freeze-up.

Then there is the rural villages, last year several did not have the money for required fuel oil for their power and heating plants.  What are those folks going to do this winter when the temp gets down in the low negative numbers?

Mean time the oil companies (ie British Petroleum, Exxon Mobil, and Conaco Philips.)are reaping record profits.

[Almtnman]

Sourdough, that's a bad situation and I feel things are going to be tough this winter for everyone. If the oil companies won't deliver when their customers get behind on payments, then they better start thinking of having a place to store all that fuel as it will back up on them when they quit delivering. They can only store so much.

[sdb777]

I feel for you....I really do.  But each and every one of us decided where to live, and there are costs to living in each of those places....in your case it's heating oil/mine is electricity(air conditioning).  I would believe that we are all responsible for budgeting for the required expenses of living where we do.  Pay your bills, or freeze everything in the home/pay my bill, or possibly die from heat exhaustion?  Easy enough.....pay the bill or look for an alternate heating source.



Don't blame the oil company/electric company for the bill.....supply and demand is what makes a business work.  Think wood burning stove/furnace...



Scott (reality check) B

[BlkHawk73]

  Seeing the same thing on this side of the north too.  Just got filled a month or so ago so what usually lasts til Jan will hopefully strecth a bit longer.  Keeping the heat  few degrees lower and putting on long sleeves or a sweatshirt.  Lowring the heat a few degrees during the day when nobody home too with programmable t-stas.  Not gonna be good for many that live paycheck to paycheck though.  I' sure there'll be those that don't do anything to help the situation and expect someone to bail them out same as always but we'll get by.  All just another step towrds the pending recession.

[beemanbeme]

No point in pussy footing around it. Here, where I live, I can just crank up the chain saw (or axe) and provide my heat but folks that don't have that option are in a bind.
What I meant by not pussy footing around is honest, hard working men are not going to let their families freeze.  No more than they would let them starve. You're talking about anarchy.
And what will make things worse is the bums and trash and n'er do wells will not be cold. They have their programs, their "entitlements", their bleeding hearts.  They'll be warm and well fed. (at our expense)

[Sourdough]

    I for one did make the choice to live here.  Yes it's cold during the winter, but the summers make up for it.  I can supplement my heating with wood, others cannot.  I am seriously expecting an exodus this winter and next spring.  But I have friends that were born and raised here, they did not choose to live here, their parents or grandparents made that choice.  My friends know nothing else as home, but a few are thinking about how it would be to move south. 

    The rural villages are the ones I think about the most.  They did not choose to live there they were born and raised there.  Their people have lived there for thousands of generations, and had been totally self sufficient.  But our government came in and in the guise of helping them moved them into houses.  The government built a power plant so they would have heat and power.  The government built the power plant but the locals have to feed it with fuel oil.  Then the government built a school, and forced the kids to go to school, to learn how to live in the modern world.  The only part of the modern world to reach the village is homes, power plants, and schools, nothing else such as jobs.  The kids have not learned the old ways of supporting themselves off the land either.  Now they are two and three generations removed from a totally subsistence life style.  They are dependent on the power plant, wells, and the modern conveniences.  They will have no choice but to move into the cities when the oil runs out.  Once here what will they do, where will they go?  Will the government that made them dependent take care of them?

[Dee]

Hey, I got an idea. Maybe if Bush can take time off, from securing our borders, he and Cheney can contact their buddies the Bin Lad dens and see if he can get them to come down on the price of oil, and Halliburton can handle the shipping.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

It is an interesting proposition when "staples" like fuel and food get put on the level of supply-demand market relation studies.

..TM7

Yup, and if you complain about it you'll get branded a Socialist.  

Jim

[Casull]

It is an interesting proposition when "staples" like fuel and food get put on the level of supply-demand market relation studies.

When have they ever not been subject to supply and demand?

[Brett]

How is it the Governments fault that the parents failed to teach this generation how to live off the land and take care of themselves as their ancestors had for generations before them?   Did Uncle Sam forbid anyone from teaching their kids how to hunt and fish? Or to set aside provisions for the winter or cut a supply of firewood?  I'm sure there are some situations where individuals need assistance and have no qualms about helping someone in need due to situations beyond their control. But I get tired of the many who are capable of fending for themselves that act like the world owes them something.

If someone needs or wants out of a place or situation badly enough you can almost always find a way.  For instance; if any healthy young man or woman wants to get out of Alaska I know how they can get free transportation, free room and board and a pay check to boot... sign up for the military.   Maybe you think I'm callus or uncaring.  Well, that's your prerogative.  But I have worked hard for everything I've got and do the best I can to take care of my family's needs and don't feel that I am entitled to live of of anyone else's back and I don't think anyone else should either. 

[Brett]

It is an interesting proposition when "staples" like fuel and food get put on the level of supply-demand market relation studies.

..TM7

Perhaps your view would be different if your families livelihood depended on income derived from the sale or production of a "staple" like fuel or food.  If you owned a dairy would you be willing to sell your milk well below market value and denigh your family the opportunity of living in a better home or going to college, etc.?. 

[ms]

Brett oil company are ripping us off you need to rethink or statement.

[Brett]

Brett oil company are ripping us off you need to rethink or statement.

Maybe.  So what are you doing about it?  Are you driving any less?  Have you down sized your vehicles to use less fuel or bought a hybrid?  Have you turned down your home thermostat or are supplementing your heat with solar, geothermal or some other heating source?  If the demand for oil drops so will the prices.   

[powderman]

We got by on one 1 tank of propane last winter. I bought an electric heater that we run wide open all the time, the bill is very reasonable, and much cheaper than propane. Propane is $2 a gallon, k1 kerosene is over $3 a gallon. We actually use a coleman lantern to add warmth to a room, it warms the bathromm in about 10 minutes. I put foil on 1/2 of the outside to block the light so we don't get blinded. Haven't used the stove yet, can't afford to. Gas for the car is now $3.20 a gal. I've spent $150 just getting to and from work the past 2 weeks. We now have to budget $150 each paycheck just for gas for the car, I drive a good 70 miles round trip per day, and walmart refuses to cooperate with schedules where we can carpool. YEP, gonna be a rough winter. POWDERMAN.  

[Almtnman]

How is it the Governments fault that the parents failed to teach this generation how to live off the land and take care of themselves as their ancestors had for generations before them?   

entitlement programs

[Dee]

Brett oil company are ripping us off you need to rethink or statement.

ms, Brett's stance is a hard one, but I would agree with him in that, eating is not a right, it's something earned. No one owes us a living, and I think many on this website are supposed to be outdoors men, and allegedly endowed with a certain amount of common sense. I have been a business man with a successful trucking business, for years, and then decided I didn't want to fight with the industry any more. I sold my business, and invested almost everything in real estate. Lost my butt, and am now working for the other man. No one owes me ANYTHING.
These oil and food prices have been going up for years, and it's up to each individual to PAY ATTENTION to what's happening around them. Make arrangements for alternative ways of living if oil goes out of site. Keep a well stocked pantry if food prices soar.
I do not agree with Brett if he is insinuating that one can live off the land, because that is not realistic anymore. The deer in my part of the country have never rebounded since they were hunted out in the Great Depression, because of continued poaching. I'd starve with a live of the land mentality in this day and time. Hell, the Indian starved 200 years ago, during bad years.
This whole mess got to where it has because WE THE PEOPLE, have been voting for the "lessor of two evils" for years, while they robbed the piggy bank blind, when we should have been paying attention.
Rising oil prices, gas guzzling cars, high food prices, long commutes to work, high mortgages for expensive homes, spoiling our children with things they don't need, i.e. KEEPING UP WITH THE JONESES.
TIGHTEN THE BELT AND PAY THE FIDDLER BROTHER. WE AIN'T SEEN NUTTIN YET.

[NONYA]

Am I the only guy left with a wood burning stove and a chainsaw?

[muskeg13]

Sorry, but I don't think it's government's responsibility to provide housing, food, electricity or heating for any except for the institutionalized, or in an emergency, like if there has been a fire.  I for one don't plan on leaving Alaska anytime soon, even if oil prices triple.  It took me nearly all of my life to get up here, and I'm not about to leave.  K-1 kerosene is only $3/gal somewhere?  Well, unfortunately it ain't here.  The last I checked, about 10 days ago, it was running more than double that, closer to $7/gal.  After a flood drowned my furnace a year ago, I bought a freestanding kerosene heater to hold me over until the furnace could be replaced.  I quickly figured out that the kero heater, in which I use with the same #1 heating oil as my furnace is more than twice as efficient as the furnace. The 2 gallon tank lasts over 8 hours, and while the heater is on, the furnace thermostat never kicks in.  The only rub is that there is more of an oil smell in the house, and I have to light and let the heater warm up outside first. Anticipating the rise in oil prices, I spent lots of time collecting firewood, at the expense of quality hunting and fishing time, and guess what, I'm still ahead financially, because with transportation and other expenses, it costs more fill the freezer today with wild game than for me to buy meat and poultry at Safeway (or especially at the military commissary).  Too many people seem all too willing to call for public assistance to make up for their own shortcoming.

[ms]

Maybe.  So what are you doing about it?  Are you driving any less?  Have you down sized your vehicles to use less fuel or bought a hybrid?  Have you turned down your home thermostat or are supplementing your heat with solar, geothermal or some other heating source?  If the demand for oil drops so will the prices.   
 
 
 
If we all did that they would come up with some other reason for high oil prices it's all a lie.

[williamlayton]

Well I can see the folks are worrying.
I think there is no such thing as a guarantee---things change.
Providing a level of comfort is not a government responsibility.
Help in providing subsistence for a period of time might be  a responsibility---maybe.
We are a spoiled lot---and we did it too ourownselves.
We expect comfort too be an guaranteed item.
If you can't afford too keep the thermostat at seventy my Best guess is turn it down--or--cut back on the necessities such as beer/chips/eating out/going to movies--well, long story-short version, have a budget and keep too it----most folks don't understand a budget--or have one, much less the will power too stay on it.
Blessings

[beemanbeme]

I'm with Brett on this.
Everyone screams about the gas companies but if you stand along a expressway, any of several, going into D.C., you see hundreds of thousands of cars, big cars, with one person in them.  People may whine and bitch but they aren't too serious.  In fact, from watching the ads on TV, they are still directed at muscle cars: horsepower and speed. 
Maybe we need to go back to the "good old days" when the living room was heated 'cause that was where you lived. The bedrooms were not.  In the morning, you grabbed your clothes and made a dash for the living room and the stove. 

[Beers]

Am I the only guy left with a wood burning stove and a chainsaw?

Nope. And as a bonus... cutting, hauling, splitting and stacking get me just as warm as burning it!

[Don Fischer]

Maybe we need to go back to the "good old days" when the living room was heated 'cause that was where you lived. The bedrooms were not.  In the morning, you grabbed your clothes and made a dash for the living room and the stove. 

Hell of an idea beeman. That's just what I do. Just pulled out the winter blanket last night! My living room ,dining room and kitchen are all together. Trailer trash! Everything else is closed off. I heat with a pellet stove. Don't read as much in the john during the winter, open the curtain to the reloading room when I use it.

Hey Nonya, I got a chain saw, actually three of them. Got a wood stove in the shop to. Mine has a flat spot on the top to set a coffee pot.

[powderman]

Got rid of the wood stove after the last chimney fire, went to gas, but I sure miss the wood heat. If I could afford some of the crap you guys talk about I wouldn't have to worry about bills. Talking carpool is easy, not so easy to accomplish when your employer refuses to cooperate. We even asked to work 4- 10 hour days, denied.  The lady I used to carpool with has such a screwed up schedule it's not possible to share a ride anymore. She too drives about 70 miles round trip a day, sometimes for only 4 hours pay. Yep, talk is easy. POWDERMAN. 

[deltecs]

I think what Sourdough was talking about is that our oil and gas supplies are leaving Alaska for the sake of the lower 48.  It ain't my problem that the lower 48 didn't and doesn't conserve their resources and let big oil reap the profits.  I think we Alaskans are trying to prevent the historical mistakes made by other states and its residents.  I believe that more refineries must be constructed in Alaska as a condition of oil production and sold to us at rates that do not depend on lower 48 demand.  We pay for fuel that leaves Alaska, shipped to lower 48 for refinement, shipped back to Alaska as refined products with the associated price increase depending on lower 48 market, and then the price is further increased for the additional handling charge.  There is no reason whatsoever that the shipping costs could be substantially reduced to provide fuel for Alaskans since it is our oil and not the oil companies.  Also, Alaska needs to be more progressive in alternative renewable energy supplies and not be so dependent on oil.  Like solar, wind, hydro, thermo, and even nuclear.  Many outlying communities could benefit greatly by using one of these energy sources instead of oil.  I personally use wood and have nearly an unlimited supply.  But my boats, which I am as dependent on as most others are dependent on vehicles, use diesel and that do not get many miles to the gallon.  About 1-2 on good days. 

[powderman]

I just bought some k1 kerosene today, $3.80 a gallon. POWDERMAN. 

[Don Fischer]

I think what Sourdough was talking about is that our oil and gas supplies are leaving Alaska for the sake of the lower 48.  It ain't my problem that the lower 48 didn't and doesn't conserve their resources and let big oil reap the profits.  I think we Alaskans are trying to prevent the historical mistakes made by other states and its residents.  I believe that more refineries must be constructed in Alaska as a condition of oil production and sold to us at rates that do not depend on lower 48 demand.  We pay for fuel that leaves Alaska, shipped to lower 48 for refinement, shipped back to Alaska as refined products with the associated price increase depending on lower 48 market, and then the price is further increased for the additional handling charge.  There is no reason whatsoever that the shipping costs could be substantially reduced to provide fuel for Alaskans since it is our oil and not the oil companies.  Also, Alaska needs to be more progressive in alternative renewable energy supplies and not be so dependent on oil.  Like solar, wind, hydro, thermo, and even nuclear.  Many outlying communities could benefit greatly by using one of these energy sources instead of oil.  I personally use wood and have nearly an unlimited supply.  But my boats, which I am as dependent on as most others are dependent on vehicles, use diesel and that do not get many miles to the gallon.  About 1-2 on good days. 

I lived in Alaska in the mid 80"s and the oil was not shipped to the lower 48. It was mostly sold to Japan for $6 a barrel.

[Sourdough]

Don Fischer:  Yes in the mid 80s the Alaskan oil was sold to the Far East, We were forbidden to sell it in the lower 48.  Something about the Gulf coast refineries felt the west coast refineries would get oil too cheap and undercut them.  Anyway that all changed in the early 90s.  It's now shipped to the west coast refineries.  As for oil, there is loads of oil under the North Slope, and under the Beaufort Sea.  The oil companies are sitting on it and have been for 30 years.  Along with all the Natural Gas.  As for ANWR, there is a lot of oil under ANWR, and it can be safely extracted without disturbing the Caribou.  But the environmentalist won't let us have it.

As for me, I'm driving a Suzuki Samurai that gets in the mid 30s per gallon.  My Ford 1 ton Dully Diesel usually sits for two or three weeks at a time.  My wife got rid of her F-150, and now drives a KIA Sportage.  My son got rid of his F-150 and got an S-10.  I burn wood also to augment the fuel oil.  I've been slowly expanding my yard and cutting down spruce and birch trees.  They both burn.  I also replaced my boiler and cut my fuel consumption in half.  But when the temp gets to 40, 50, or 60 below (and I'm not talking chill factor either, that's straight temps) we will all have the heat turned up, and will be burning all the wood we can.

As for the plight in the rural villages, people in the lower 48 don't understand what really took place here.  The government (Beauru of Indian affairs) came in and built the natives homes, and schools.  Then told the natives they had to send their children to school, therefore they had to stop their nomadic lifestyle, of moving with the game and fish as the seasons progressed.  They were forced to stay in one place so the kids could go to school.  There is no industry in those villages, no jobs, nothing for employment.  The kids don't learn the old ways since they no longer move to the hunting and fishing grounds with the seasons.  They have learned how to be dependent on oil for heat and energy.  Many of the young people have moved to the city for employment, leaving the old people behind.  With little or no income how are they going to pay for the oil it will take to heat those schools and homes this winter.  And every time Industry tries to come into the area Environmentalist groups do every thing they can to stop it.  Case in point, the Pebble mine. 

[gypsyman]

One fireplace insert in the basement, one in the living room. One 22'' Poulan,one 14'' Huskarvana, and a 12'' electric Wen. 4 cords already split and stacked with 2 more ash trees ready to get pulled up with the tractor. 2 generators in the pole barn ready to go. Heat or food I'm not to worried about, my luck will be only having 2 beers in the refrigerator when the big storm hits, and I'm snowed in for 3 days.  gypsyman

[beemanbeme]

Didn't the various tribes and individual indians and eskimos get HUGH cash settlements from uncle sugar when the national parks were established and the oil fields opened up?  What happened to that money? Also, don't the various villages get government allotments and support?