The PERFECT bullet?

[Coyote Hunter]

For some time I have been of the opinion that, in no particular order, the best lead core bullets available are the Swift A-Frame, Speer Trophy Bonded and North Fork.  All are bonded core bullets with a mechanical design that positively limits expansion.  You won’t see any of these bullet pancaked like you sometimes do with other bonded-core bullets.

The Swift A-Frame can occasionally lose its rear core because, unlike the front core, it is not bonded.  The North Fork and Trophy Bonded eliminate this possibility by using a solid rear shank.  The Trophy Bonded and North Fork are very similar but the North Fork has grooves n the shank which provide a couple of benefits.   One benefit is that bearing surface is reduced, lowering pressure for a given velocity or allowing higher velocity for a given pressure.  Another benefit is that grooved bullets seem to be inherently more accurate in a variety of rifle bores.

I’ve thought that if North Fork put a polymer tip on the bullet they would have the best lead-core bullet available – period.  It looks like Speer beat them to it.   The new American rifleman has an article about Federal’s new premium ammo which uses a polymer tipped and grooved Trophy Bonded bullet.  Speer/Federal went a couple one steps further as well – they skived the nose section, added a boat tail and nickel plated the bullet. 

I don’t imagine these are going to be cheap bullets, but frankly I don’t care. 

Let the naysayers start whining!

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm I wonder what the nickel plating will do to the bore? and how do you remove Nickel fouling?

I can recall all the problems that the original Cupro-nickel fouling caused before Gilding metal jackets became the norm. Seems nothign new it just comes around again ......................................... and again just hyped as the newest baddest thing............... Sheesh .

[Coyote Hunter]

I  have to admit I would have preferred no nickel plate.

[drdougrx]

I'd kinda like a a poly tip partition myself.

[Swampman]

I had a ballistic tip bullet failure where the bullets didn't expand at all.  I went back to Remington Core-Lokts.

[Don Fischer]

It seems to me that every bullet has had a problem with somebody! I'm curious CH. How many bonded core bullets have you recovered or seen recovered and what was the percentage of pancaked ones?

[Coyote Hunter]

It seems to me that every bullet has had a problem with somebody! I'm curious CH. How many bonded core bullets have you recovered or seen recovered and what was the percentage of pancaked ones?

I've seen a number of pictures of pancaked InterBond, AccuBond and Oryx bullets.  Rick Jamison ran a test several years ago where he shot a number of bullets into gelatin at 2000fps and 3000fps and the three mentioned above didn't fare as well at high velocity (close range) as the A-Frame, Trophy Bonded, Partition and some others, although the AccuBond was the best of the three as I recall.  I grant that gelatin isn't flesh, but then again I could line up recovered North Fork bullets an you couldn't tell which were recovered from game and which was recovered from dirt.  You could probably guess which one was pulled out of the crater it made in a 200-yard steel gong, but even it didn't pancake.  No other bullet I've tried has survived that test, including AccuBond and TSX. 

[Drilling Man]

For some time I have been of the opinion that, in no particular order, the best lead core bullets available are the Swift A-Frame, Speer Trophy Bonded and North Fork.  All are bonded core bullets with a mechanical design that positively limits expansion.  You won’t see any of these bullet pancaked like you sometimes do with other bonded-core bullets.

  My complaint with those bullets is that they don't expand well at low velocities, or don't always show enough expansion on smaller animials unless a lot of bone is hit...

  That may not bother some, but it does me, as i work up one load/bullet for my rifle and use it on everything...   I may take a brown bear while deer hunting ect...

  DM

[beemanbeme]

Not too many brown bears in West Virginia, but I'm with Drilling Man. I'm a work up one good load per rifle and use it on everything.
  I'm not one to fish around in some dead animals inerts so on the rare occasion when a bullet has stayed inside of an animal, I've recovered very few over the years. There's nothing wrong with the bullets that CH has picked but I thought the idea was to have the biggest frontal area possible to transfer the most trauma. Hence the pancake wouldn't be a bad thing.
I've often wondered how many shots the various bullet companys fired to get the few that they show pictures of. 

[Rummer]

The only game I really hunt are deer.

For them I like plain old Hornady bullets.

[kudzu]

I'd kinda like a a poly tip partition myself.

It's already here - The Accubond.



The swift scirocco is near perfect to me. ( med to Lg. game).  Poly tipped , boat-tailed, retains weight well expands well yet has good penetration.  Other bullets may do some of these better but IMHO, the scirocco is as well balenced as they get.

Hope to have good news on the fed. Fusion soon.

[victorcharlie]

Heck.....it's been here for generations........Remington Corelocts........

[Coyote Hunter]

… I thought the idea was to have the biggest frontal area possible to transfer the most trauma. Hence the pancake wouldn't be a bad thing.
I've often wondered how many shots the various bullet companys fired to get the few that they show pictures of. 

A 60g .224” bullet and a standard 8-1/2”x11” piece of paper weigh about the same.  Which would you rather be shot with – the pointy end of a stabilized FMJ .224” bullet (minimum expansion) or the flat side of the paper (maximum expansion) at the same velocity?  I’d take the paper! As with many things in life, more (in this case, bullet expansion) is not always better.

The trick, as far as I’m concerned, is to obtain a good BALANCE.  Good expansion but not too much.  I’ve seen pictures of pancaked bullets that had almost no shank left and resulting sectional density approaching that of a flyswatter.  The remains of a .224” bullet is sitting on my desk as I write.  It successfully achieved maximum expansion, measuring over .9” in a couple different directions.  This bullet has NO shank left and consists of the jacket with a thin layer of lead.  This particular bullet hit steel at 200 yards, but its indicative of what I call 'over expansion'.  Other .224 bullets that expanded less performed much better against the steel, forming craters instead of a splat mark.  Here’s a pic:




Pretty awesome expansion but not much penetration – and that’s the tradeoff.  Rapid and/or excessive expansion limit penetration.  That’s why I prefer bullets that have some mechanism for positively limiting expansion – such as the crossmember in the Partition and A-Frame and solid shanks in the North Fork, Trophy Bonded, TSX/TTSX/MRX, and so on.

How many bullets do the manufacturers shoot to get pretty pictures?  I don’t know, but I’m sure they have a lot of test bullets to choose from.  Here are a few of mine, all recovered from water jugs.

Left to right, Speer 300g Uni-Cor .458", Speer 350g FP .458", North Fork 350g .458", Cast Performance 460g WFNGC .458", Hornady 220g FP .375", Barnes 180g MRX .308" 




Crappy picture, but that's life.

[Don Fischer]

Hope this is a better photo of your bullets Ch. I just enhanced it in a photo program

[Graybeard]

What a bullet does when it hits steel is really quite immaterial as far as it's use in a hunting application is concerned.

There is no perfect bullet. There is not even a perfect bullet if you define what your expectations are as far as penetration and expansion. Even if you add in your expected quarry and the precise distance you'll be from it when you fire I still don't think there is a perfect bullet.

When we factor in all the various expectations of millions of hunters the hundreds of different game animals we'll be shooting them at the myrid angles and distances involved no one bullet can be expected to please us all. I don't even use one bullet or for that matter one rifle or cartridge for it all. But if I had to settle for only one the Nosler PT certainly would come close for me for hunting use. For target shooting/varmint shooting the Nosler BT is as good as it gets also.

Still I do use the BT on game for a hunting bullet at times and in certain situations. For big game tho I usually use heavy for caliber. Still I'll continue to also use various bullets made by Hornady, Remington and Sierra as well. I'm gonna try the newer Accubond and Interbond bullets on game as well but have not done so yet.

I think those looking for a one bullet for all uses are dreamers and don't really have a very clear understanding of ballistics or what they should be expecting in the way of bullet performance. In short they are fooling themselves more than anyone else.

[Redhawk1]

I'll stick with my Barnes X and TSX bullets. 

[Coyote Hunter]

What a bullet does when it hits steel is really quite immaterial as far as it's use in a hunting application is concerned.

Not necessarily the case.  A bullet that holds together when hitting steel is not likely to fall apart when hitting bone.

There is no perfect bullet.  …

Agreed.  But some come much closer to perfection than others, at least in my estimation.  I like bullets that hold together during high velocity impacts yet still expand reliably at the lower velocities of extended ranges.  There are enough bullets out there that will do that reliably for any range I might shoot that I see no need to use a bullet that won’t.

When we factor in all the various expectations of millions of hunters the hundreds of different game animals we'll be shooting them at the myrid angles and distances involved no one bullet can be expected to please us all. …

The bullets I use don’t need to please ANYONE else, let alone everyone else.  Some people don’t care (or even KNOW!) what bullet they are using.  Their thoughts on the matter hold no interest for me.  (Met one of the “don’t know” types at the range the last session before going elk hunting this fall.  He had several different loads and didn’t know beans about any of them – not the  bullet type, velocity, nothing.  Appeared to be handloads, too.  Scary.)

I think those looking for a one bullet for all uses are dreamers and don't really have a very clear understanding of ballistics or what they should be expecting in the way of bullet performance. In short they are fooling themselves more than anyone else.

One bullet for all uses?  Wouldn’t think of it.  Varmint hunting I tend to use V-MAX, big game I lean toward North Fork (although I also load TSX and A-Frame for that purpose).  Plinkers in the .45-70?  Hardcast and cup-and-core.  Federal factory Partitions have been my backup 7mm Mag load for a couple decades.  (Although I’ve never shot anything with them except targets.)  Cup-and-core for the pistols?  No problem.  Cup and core for the leverguns?  Sometimes it’s the only choice (like my .375 Win), sometimes it’s a reasonable choice (like the .30-30 and .44 Mag).  Partitions in the .30-30 make good sense and shoot great.  Lots of different bullets get used in my .45-70 but I hunt big game with North Forks.

If we’re talking big game hunting only, I could happily hunt the rest of my life using only Trophy Bonded, North Fork, A-Frames or a couple others (pick one).  They may not suit everyone else’s needs, but they all do what I need done from the muzzle to 600 yards, which is further than I’ll probably ever shoot anything.

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm I see the Swift Scirocco mentioned  yet I have never seen nor met anyone who has managed to get any resonable accuracy let alone good accuracy out of them regardless of calibre and cartridge used !

For my hunting I use normal bullets, Hornady Spire Points, Speer Hot Core, RWS H-Mantle (when I can get them) and sometimes Sierra Pro Hunter. I am testing a load with Ballistic Tips in my 6mm Remington and will try them in the .243 later and the same thing with some 100 grain Nosler partitions. I have also been trying some Hornady SST bullets in the 6mm as well. Now as for velocities even though I use cartridges such as 6mm Remington .270 Winchester and .222 Remington the loads I chose to handload are not the highest in the books, I don't need velocities really above 3,000 fps and velocities of around 2800-2900fps are about right and don't tear up our small Deer like Roe and Muntjac.

[jro45]

Hornady has some Bonded Bullets out, Speer has the shell shaped to act as a bonded, I don't think Serria is worried about bonding. I mean these are common names I hear when ever I'm around other shooters.

Every one that shoots alot has his favorate Bullet. My favorate is Nosler & Hornady. They both fly the same.

[Coyote Hunter]

... Speer has the shell shaped to act as a bonded...

Speer has the Trophy Bonded Bear Claw.

[beemanbeme]

Brithunter, if we colonials would confine ourselves to those velocities, you would hear far less stories about "bullet failures". As in: "I made a perfect heart shot but the xxxx ran away never to be found...".  )

[Brithunter]

Well if you say so!

However I am open to convincing. As fro super cartridges well I am not convinced by them by a long chalk. I always recall a certain friends brother and his problems with a certain Weatherby MkV in 30-378 he crippled and wounded quite a few deer with that blooming rifle. Inconsistant is the only way to describe it, inaccurate as well, he had two expensive quality scopes on it, it went back to Weatherby about three times in the end the action was the only original bit left. Finally after about 3 years a gunsmith who builds bench rest rifles took it in hand and blueprinted the whole thing and it finally was able to shoot about 1 1/2 MOA. Despite premium bullets and a hyper velocity cartridge he also lost several deer despite using a super cartridge and super bullets.

     I also recall a certain Roe Doe I shot a few years ago that I shot at a range of about 90 yards with a 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser loaded with a Hornady 160 grain bullet over a charge of Reloader 19. At the shot the Doe spung 180 degrees ao she was facing the opposite way, when I skinned the doe I discovered that the shoulder of the exit wound was completly bloodshot. Never saw this before, the doe weighed 35lbs and I decided that perhaps the Round Nose 160 grain bullet at a slightly enhanced velocity of the fairly hot load was just too much for light deer so switched back to 120 grain Speer Hot Core bullet and didn't have the same problem again. I also stopped using the hotter loads as quite honestly they are not required especially at the ranges I usually get shots at. The .270 Winchester has been my "Bogey" cartridge as despite the first rifle I brought and still have being chambered for it until the other year I had not shot any deer with a .270. It was always the wrong deer, sex or and unsafe shot when I carried one. The deer I shot using one was a Young Muntjac Buck at around 100 yards using a handload with a Nosler 130 grain solid Base bullet, one that I had hoarded for some years now, bullet seemed to perform as well as one could wish and took out part of the spine. I had aimed for a high lung shot forgetting that the rifle was zeroed 1 1/2" high and Muntjac are small, the heart was obscured by the long grass as it was May add to that it was a free hand shot so I lost a little of the backstrap. The load was one developed for my first .270 rifle which only has a 20" barrel being of fullstock "Stutzen" style so it uses a mid range burning powder and not teh slow burners usually associated with teh .270 cartridge but I found it very accurate at 600 yards on the target range so this was not a screamer load and hey it worked despite not giving the full potential of teh cartridge..

[Coyote Hunter]

Brithunter, if we colonials would confine ourselves to those velocities, you would hear far less stories about "bullet failures". As in: "I made a perfect heart shot but the xxxx ran away never to be found...".  )

I agree lower velocities would result in fewer bullet failures.

On the other hand, a good bullet (North Fork, Trophy Bonded, A-Frame, etc.) will handle very high velocities without a problem.  If I want to hunt with low velocity loads I’ll grab a levergun.  Bolt guns, even the .308 Win, get the good stuff.  (Actually, so does the .45-70.)  Low velocity loads are fine in some situations but where I hunt a flat shooter is generally preferred.

[corbanzo]

All the talk of bullet failure, though I've never experienced it myself on game, coupled with great ballistics made me switch to the TSX.  They are more spendy, but that is why I only use them for hunting.  I have other plinking bullets, but don't really care too much about perfect accuracy or performance on game with them.  I like the barnes bullets because there is no jacket which can separate with the core.  - And they are darn accurate. 

[Redhawk1]

corbanzo, I found it odd that the Barnes was not mentioned by anyone but you and I.  I NEVER had a bullet failure with any of the different styles of Barnes bullets. I just find it hard to beat a Barnes bullet, if you have to worry about bullet failure, I think you need to look at a new bullet. 

[SHOOTALL]

Gee i wish i could get a supply of Winchester silver tip bullets for reloading my 3006 and some more for my 30-30 !
not the BST , but the old style with the foil tip ! never have let me down ! but I'm down to 40 or so rounds now !
nickle is in heavi shot so there must either not be a problem or a way to clean it out the bore .

[Brithunter]

Yes I have heard good ole reports on the old Winchester Silver Tip bullets, however the only ones I have seen are in the factory 30-30 ammunition that I have and my rifle dislikes it.

[IOWA DON]

The accurate bullet in my "old" 7MM STW was the 120-grain Hornaday hollow point. With a velocity of about 3,650 fps it was also possible to zero the rifle for 300 yards with a maximum bullet rise of less than 3 inches and a 400 yard drop of less than 7 inches. I shot about 25 antelope with that rifle, a couple bucks but mostly does. The barrel had a 1-in-12 twist and on broadside shots the bullets would exit and leave 1-1/2-inch exit holes. The antelope would rarely move more than a few feet even at 300 to 400 yards. I have read a recent article about some Barnes target type bullets that one would assume would preform poorly on game. However, with broadside shots on deer and antelope, users report very quick kills.

[Coyote Hunter]

corbanzo, I found it odd that the Barnes was not mentioned by anyone but you and I.  I NEVER had a bullet failure with any of the different styles of Barnes bullets. I just find it hard to beat a Barnes bullet, if you have to worry about bullet failure, I think you need to look at a new bullet. 

While I load a number of Barnes bullets (TSX and MRX), I'll never use the old 'X' or 'XLC' type on game.  Tried that once (antelope) with very unsatisfctory results.

Accuracy with the Barnes TSX and MRX bullets has been very good with he exception of 140g in my 7mm RM, which I could not get to shoot well.

In my opinion the Tipped TSX and MRX are among the best bullets available.  Not 100% sold on the non-tipped TSX due to the earlier problem with the antelope.

[beemanbeme]

Flat shooter??
7mag
140gr bullet @3400fps (don't ask me why anyone would choose a 7mag to shoot a 140gr bullet but like the fellow that kissed the cow) zero'd at 300 yards  drop at 400 yards 8.8" energy 1800#

160gr bullet @2900fps zero'd at 300 yards drop at 400 yards 9.2" energy 2400#