Author Topic: The PERFECT bullet?  (Read 5528 times)

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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2007, 06:14:22 AM »
corbanzo, I found it odd that the Barnes was not mentioned by anyone but you and I.  I NEVER had a bullet failure with any of the different styles of Barnes bullets. I just find it hard to beat a Barnes bullet, if you have to worry about bullet failure, I think you need to look at a new bullet.  ;)

While I load a number of Barnes bullets (TSX and MRX), I'll never use the old 'X' or 'XLC' type on game.  Tried that once (antelope) with very unsatisfctory results.

Accuracy with the Barnes TSX and MRX bullets has been very good with he exception of 140g in my 7mm RM, which I could not get to shoot well.

In my opinion the Tipped TSX and MRX are among the best bullets available.  Not 100% sold on the non-tipped TSX due to the earlier problem with the antelope.

A lot of people blame bullets for failure or poor performance, but sometimes shot placement is the real cause.  I have taken an Asian Water buffalo with a Barnes X bullet, one shot and the bullet performed very good.

What was so unsatisfactory with the X or XLC?
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline IOWA DON

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2007, 11:50:50 AM »
A 160-grain bullet would make more sense if one were to use a 7MM Mag for larger game like elk, or maybe even deer, but the largest animal I intended to shoot with my 7MM STW was a buck antelope (140 pounds?), and only on a broadside shot. Mostly I shot coyotes and doe antelope (100 pounds?) and coyote fur prices were so low that hides were not worth keeping. Iowa had no rifle season for deer at that time. The 120-grain bullets allowed a little longer sight-in distance and still had plenty of power for the small stuff. My son used the gun for an elk hunt, and for that I loaded up some 160-grain Nosler Partitions.

Offline corbanzo

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2007, 02:46:51 PM »
Did you recover the bullet from that antelope?  Myself, pretty much every shot I take on game with a rifle is going to hit bone, so I don't care if it opens up to 3" wide.  I want it to have enough expansion to cause good damage, but what I think are two very important things: the bullet stays together for penetration, and also - the bullet stays together to have uniform energy expansion causing hydrashock to put animals down quickly. 

Yes a tipped bullet would make it expand faster... but I'm not a bowhunter, so I don't really give a damn about the wound channel. 

Yeah, great, instead of a .308 hole, you have a .750 hole.  But Three inches around of hydrashock all the way through is gonna do a loooot more for putting it down. 
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline corbanzo

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2007, 02:50:53 PM »
Though I may try the tipped TSX's just to see if they will help the feeding problems in my .06 with longer OAL's.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2007, 06:16:45 PM »
Flat shooter?????
7mag
140gr bullet @3400fps (don't ask me why anyone would choose a 7mag to shoot a 140gr bullet but like the fellow that kissed the cow) zero'd at 300 yards  drop at 400 yards 8.8" energy 1800#

160gr bullet @2900fps zero'd at 300 yards drop at 400 yards 9.2" energy 2400#


Not sure what 160g bullet you use but it must have a .900 BC to meet your 9.2” drop @ 400 yards.   To retain 2400fpe at 400 requires an even higher BC of 1.2.  That’s an awesome bullet!





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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2007, 06:36:32 PM »

A lot of people blame bullets for failure or poor performance, but sometimes shot placement is the real cause.  I have taken an Asian Water buffalo with a Barnes X bullet, one shot and the bullet performed very good.

What was so unsatisfactory with the X or XLC?

The antelope was standing broadside at 297 yards, as measured later.  Muzzle velocity for the 160g 7mm XLC was 3020fps.

The first bullet hit the lungs and caused the buck antelope  to lower its head and cough up blood.  After several minutes of that I decided it wasn’t going to die any time soon and I put another one through the lungs.  This time the buck laid down but kept its head up as if sunning itself.  After watching it for some time I decided to circle around the hill and come in from the opposite side.  As l lined up for another shot, this one at less than 100 yards, the buck struggled to its feet and started to got walk away.  A third XLC through the heart dropped it again and ended its suffering.

I don’t know if the XLC’s failed to expand or if they lost their petals (we didn’t find any).  Don’t really care.  I had planned to hunt elk with the XLC’s that fall and immediately scratched that idea.

One might think the antelope was too small for the XLC.  Perhaps it is, but I’ve taken coyotes with the same load and seen dramatically different results.  In one case a softball sized wound channel was dug across the back of a running coyote at 75 yards.  The resulting “U” channel wound was deep enough to take out a section of spine.  In another case a coyote dropped at the shot but I could not find either an entrance or exit wound.

That year I went back to 160g Grand Slams and they performed well, as they had for over 20 years. The next year I switched to North Forks and have never been disappointed.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2007, 06:43:22 PM »
Did you recover the bullet from that antelope?  Myself, pretty much every shot I take on game with a rifle is going to hit bone, so I don't care if it opens up to 3" wide.  I want it to have enough expansion to cause good damage, but what I think are two very important things: the bullet stays together for penetration, and also - the bullet stays together to have uniform energy expansion causing hydrashock to put animals down quickly. 

Yes a tipped bullet would make it expand faster... but I'm not a bowhunter, so I don't really give a damn about the wound channel. 

Yeah, great, instead of a .308 hole, you have a .750 hole.  But Three inches around of hydrashock all the way through is gonna do a loooot more for putting it down. 

No, none of the 3 XLCs were recovered – all passed through.  The first two wound channels showed little if any evidence of bullet expansion while the third, a quartering away shot, appeared to have expanded somewhat.

Not the kind of  performance I want or demand.

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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2007, 01:45:37 AM »
Two lung shots and the antelope got back up. Wow!! When you gutted the antelope how did the lungs look?
I have shot many thin skinned animals with a Barnes XLC and recovered every one of my animals.
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Offline beemanbeme

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2007, 03:24:36 AM »
I'm not about to get into any argument with any Barnes bullet worshipers but I have shot or seen shot with premium bullets more than a couple of antelope that showed little reaction to the shot.  They died in short order but it seemed they are so lightly built that there isn't enough body mass to upset the bullet.  At least that's my theory as no bullets were recovered and the internal damage wasn't too impressive.  I learned to do serious heart damage if you were going to shoot a antelope with say a grand slam bullet. 

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2007, 04:08:07 AM »
Redhawk1 -
"...and the antelope got back up. Wow!"  That pretty much mirrors my thoughts at the time, although mine were somewhat more colorful.

Both of the first two bullets passed through the lungs, which were damaged but not completely destroyed.   It is my belief neither of them expanded.  I shot a coyote through the lungs one time with an FMJ from my .22-250 and immediately quit using FMJs as a result.  Another time I put a .44 240g Speer through the lungs of a coyote from about 5 feet.  The coyote was already on the ground, I was just trying to end its misery.  Instead all I did was increase its misery.  You could plainly see where the bullet went in, no way it missed the lungs, but the coyote was holding on to life.  A head shot finally finished it.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2007, 05:50:50 AM »
Quote
I have shot or seen shot with premium bullets more than a couple of antelope that showed little reaction to the shot.  They died in short order but it seemed they are so lightly built that there isn't enough body mass to upset the bullet.  At least that's my theory as no bullets were recovered and the internal damage wasn't too impressive.

  I see you guys have come full circle now, and should be able to see why those NP's are loved so much...  They expand well on lightly constructed animials, and still drive in deep on the big animials!!!   8)

  DM

Offline IOWA DON

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2007, 08:27:50 AM »
How can we agree on what bullet is perfect if when there is disagreement on how a bullet should perform. That is, should it stay in the animal or exit. I've killed a number of coyotes with a .17 Remington where there is no exit hole, but ones at 200 yards or closer pretty much just flopped over dead. However, during the last couple winters I've shot a number of whitetail does with a 6mm-06 with the Nosler 70-grain Ballistic Tip bullet, mostly under 250 yards, and though all were recovered, some ran 50 to 100 yards. Over the last couple winters I've also shot a number of whitetail does, mostly over 400 yards, with a .338-.378 Weatherby with 225-grain Nosler Accubonds. Impact velocity was lower with the .338-378 and of course all bullets exited. However, even with the big gun, some ran 50 yards and one doe, hit perfectly ran about 200 yards. Since the 6mm-06 bullets were not exiting, all their energy was used inside the deer. Since the .338-.378 bullets all exited, those bullets still had energy after exiting, maybe a lot of energy. I would not be surprised if they could have penetrated 3 or four deer. Anyway, by the time the 6mm-06 bullets make it most of the way to the far side of a deer's chest cavity I think the velocity would be fairly low so that the lung on the far side of the animal would receive little hydraulic shock. I think the .338-378 bullets would have hardly slowed down so that the lung on the far side of the deer's chest cavity would still get a lot of hydraulic shock. However, I would not say it appeared the larger rifle was a lot better at killing deer quickly. The big difference was that the .338-.378's big exit holes made much better blood trails. The only rifle load I've seen that seems to consistantly make close to instant kills is the 120-grain Hornaday hollow points from a 7mm STW with a 1-in-12 twist barrel at 3,650 fps muzzle velocity and this is for antelope. My hunting buddy appropiately named that rifle "Sudden Death" after seeing how it performed.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2007, 10:13:07 AM »

  I see you guys have come full circle now, and should be able to see why those NP's are loved so much...  They expand well on lightly constructed animials, and still drive in deep on the big animials!!!   8)

  DM

Nosler Partitions (factory ammo from Federal) was my backup ammo for 20 years when I only had one bolt rifle suitable for big game..  These days I don't use it as I just take two rifles.  Still have some 7mm RM in the safe, though.
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2007, 06:30:54 PM »
How can we agree on what bullet is perfect if when there is disagreement on how a bullet should perform. ...

The "Perfect Bullet" should perform "perfectly" every time.  It should shoot around corners, go where you want it to go regardless of how poorly you shoot and completely defy gravity.  And it should be free or better yet the manufacturer should pay us to use it.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2007, 03:22:29 AM »
Quote
It should shoot around corners, go where you want it to go regardless of how poorly you shoot and completely defy gravity.

  That would be a perfect "world" not a perfect bullet!

  DM

Offline chazgin

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2007, 03:12:03 PM »
corbanzo, I found it odd that the Barnes was not mentioned by anyone but you and I.  I NEVER had a bullet failure with any of the different styles of Barnes bullets. I just find it hard to beat a Barnes bullet, if you have to worry about bullet failure, I think you need to look at a new bullet.  ;)

While I load a number of Barnes bullets (TSX and MRX), I'll never use the old 'X' or 'XLC' type on game.  Tried that once (antelope) with very unsatisfctory results.

Accuracy with the Barnes TSX and MRX bullets has been very good with he exception of 140g in my 7mm RM, which I could not get to shoot well.

In my opinion the Tipped TSX and MRX are among the best bullets available.  Not 100% sold on the non-tipped TSX due to the earlier problem with the antelope.


I had a friend with a 300 Weatherby that I loaded Barnes X bullets in 150 to about 3400 fps. We went antelope hunting that year and he got to shoot first. The shot was about 275 yds and I heard the bullet hit. The antelope just stood there! He fired again and again I heard the bullet hit. The antelope did not move until we stood up and started teetering and fell over. When we walked up we found 2 perfect 30 cal holes in and 2 perfect 30 cal holes out. It was like shooting solids or FMJs, I will never shoot Barnes bullets at any game animal again. I had my 7 mag Sendero and was using Hornady Interlocks on that trip, no problem.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2007, 04:10:22 PM »
chazgin, two shots, animal never moved and them fell over, SO WHEN DID THE BULLET FAIL?? Did you recover the animal? Sounds like you did. So I would say the bullets worked.

Also if you are up on animals, even thought the holes looked like 30 cal exit holes, you know hide will stretch and retract. So if you did not recover the bullets how do you really know they did not expand?   ???
If  you're going to make a hole, make it a big one.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2007, 04:41:08 PM »
Old Barnes X or newer TSX ? I have seen a difference in terminal performance. The oldest X bullets did not open well at times, I saw that myself a couple of times when they first came out. The later X bullets were better & the new TSX does very well, at least for me.
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Offline chazgin

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2007, 04:54:10 PM »
Sorry Redhawk, I've shot and seen a lot of game shot and those bullets did not expand, there wasn't hardly any internal damage. I didn't even see any hydrostatic shock to the soft tissue. I can't explain it but I did see it. I don't have anything against Barnes but those bullets did not work well, I have to add that was 10 years ago also. On the other hand I foolishly went against sierras recommendation against using Matchkings on game. The 168 gr SPBT shoot so good thru my Sendero (< 0.5 in at 100) that I tried them one year on antelope. Don't do it! No penetration just a massive surface wound. That antelope died too but it wasn't pretty. I have now standardized (antelope)on the 160 Hornady because it shoots very well in my 7 RM Sendero and kills antelope like the Hammer of Thor.




Offline chazgin

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #49 on: November 22, 2007, 04:55:49 PM »
Old Barnes X or newer TSX ? I have seen a difference in terminal performance. The oldest X bullets did not open well at times, I saw that myself a couple of times when they first came out. The later X bullets were better & the new TSX does very well, at least for me.

Old X bullets about 10 years ago

Offline chazgin

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2007, 05:05:06 PM »
I have 16 points = 16 years for a bull tag in GMU 201 (CO) where the average bull is B&C 340 or better, pretty sure that I will draw in 2008. I've been hunting cows in that area now for several years and the average shot is 200+, open sage. That shot will be a shoulder shot with a 300 and a good bullet, but which one?  I'm reluctant now to try anything other than a Grand Slam (1st hand knowledge) but I would like to hear other real world experiences.

Offline Doesniper

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2007, 05:09:18 PM »
Barnes.

Offline chazgin

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2007, 05:15:08 PM »
Sorry, my thread replies seem to have gotten mixed up with my other thread about elk

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2007, 03:50:25 AM »
I have 16 points = 16 years for a bull tag in GMU 201 (CO) where the average bull is B&C 340 or better, pretty sure that I will draw in 2008. I've been hunting cows in that area now for several years and the average shot is 200+, open sage. That shot will be a shoulder shot with a 300 and a good bullet, but which one?  I'm reluctant now to try anything other than a Grand Slam (1st hand knowledge) but I would like to hear other real world experiences.

I replied in the other thread but I would be comfortable with a number of bullets:

North Fork
Speer Trophy Bonded
Swift A-Frame
Barnes Tipped TSX (somewhat less so with TSX)
Barnes MRX

With more standard bullets I'd pick a Grand Slam or Partition.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2007, 04:46:45 AM »
Old Barnes X or newer TSX ? I have seen a difference in terminal performance. The oldest X bullets did not open well at times, I saw that myself a couple of times when they first came out. The later X bullets were better & the new TSX does very well, at least for me.

Old X bullets about 10 years ago

Thought so
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2007, 05:04:21 AM »
haven't checked as of late but some states require a bullet to contain lead , Va. did , not sure if that law has been deleted or not ! but it could make things interesting !
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2007, 02:54:36 AM »
haven't checked as of late but some states require a bullet to contain lead , Va. did , not sure if that law has been deleted or not ! but it could make things interesting !

No such requirement in Colorado.  The bullet must simply be an "expanding" type with minimum initial weights depending on the game.  Energy for rifles must be 1000fpe or more at 100 yards.
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Offline kudzu

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2007, 04:04:40 PM »
[
 


 



The swift scirocco is near perfect to me. ( med to Lg. game).  Poly tipped , boat-tailed, retains weight well expands well yet has good penetration.  Other bullets may do some of these better but IMHO, the scirocco is as well balenced as they get.

Hope to have good news on the fed. Fusion soon.




Well I do have a good report on the Fusion.  This moderately priced bullet will  hurt some of the prem. bullet sales. 

Had the chance to shoot 5  WT last week with them. Only dropped the hammer 4 times on my 280 pro hunter. Took two with one shot. The first 4 drooped in their tracks. The only one I had to track was the second deer hit by one bullet . The bullet passed thru both front shoulders of and large doe then passed thru the second deer which ran about 50yrds. with a very good blood trail. This bullet is also very accurate. Under 11/4'' at 300 yards.

Will try them in my 25-06 and 338wm.
May also try in my 7mag. Ballisticlly on paper they look as good or better as the rest.

Everyone that I have talked has say that they were very accurate and hammmer game. After last week I have to agree.

SO THE FEDERAL FUSION MOVES ON UP THE LIST.
 

Offline Black Jaque Janaviac

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2007, 05:37:15 AM »
I'm with Graybeard, the perfect bullet doesn't exist.

The perfect bullet would:

Explode on impact with a prairie dog, but won't destroy the meat on a squirrel.  It will expand on whitetail causing maximum trauma to the vitals, and still hold together to penetrate the heavy bones of elk or grizzly.  It will be light enough to slip out of the muzzle just under Mach 4, with little recoil, it will fly with the trajectory of a laser, yet bust brush like a bulldozer.  The one bullet will do all jobs from prairie dog to grizzly b'ar and do so with aplomb.  It will not merely suffice for such a broad range of tasks but it will outperform all other bullets, even ones that are specialized in a given task.

THAT is the perfect bullet.
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: The PERFECT bullet?
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2007, 08:04:30 AM »


All of this makes one wonder if it I should start making my own bullets...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...