Author Topic: New to high powered rifles, need advice  (Read 2514 times)

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Offline bluebayou

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2007, 05:58:40 PM »
There isn't a 30/06 load that compares to a 12 gauge magnum load. 20 ftlbs versus 50 ftlbs?  Not even a comparison.   I am a recoil wimp and I don't care what people think about it.  Life is too short.  I don't need sore shoulders, headaches, or blurry vision. 

I don't see where 7-08 is any more expensive than 308.  I really like the 7-08 for the variety as a handloader.  For factory ammo there is the 140 Remington loads for $16 or Hornady Light Mags for $25ish.  The surplus 308 ammo is a lot higher than it was last year.  If you are basing your decision in any way on the price or availability of 7.62 NATO surplus, then you need to do some more study.  There just isn't a lot to be had. 

AIM is probably par for the course:
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/308.html

I like the 270 and 7-08 personally.  Good luck.

Offline CoastalHunter

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2007, 06:10:34 PM »
Bluebayou, I'm not trying to be smart or anything but you say
Quote
I don't see where 7-08 is any more expensive than 308.  I really like the 7-08 for the variety as a handloader.  For factory ammo there is the 140 Remington loads for $16 or Hornady Light Mags for $25ish.
. If you can tell me where I can find Remington ammo for that price I would seriously consider a 7mm-08. Wow a 12 guage magnum load has 50 pounds of recoil :o I never realized it was that much. That explains the twitch Ive had since I was twelve  ;D just joking.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2007, 06:45:10 PM »


Recoil on the shoulder can be reduced to manageable levels even small teenagers can handle...and how many rounds is planned for on any one outing...? I really doubt most folks feel any recoil when pulling the trigger on a good sized whitetail...I know I don't...and I shoot some really hard kicking rounds...The 7-08 & 308 are very good rounds...there is no doubt about it...but...I have seen quite a few deer taken with the various managed recoil loads over the past 2 years...all at shots of 200 yards or less...Some where huge 175 class deer taken...If recoil is a issue...it what I recommend a person uses till they can handle normal hunting loads...One of the nice things about this place is our FAQ's...it's chocked full of good information to help you...and reducing recoil is in there...Most folks don't like getting bruised up at the range...and if your rifle is outfitted properly...you never will...That being said...given the terrain you said you had...you will need a a relatively heavy round for the thick stuff...light weight deer bullets won't do much good if shooting thru cane thickets or saw cypress & mangrove thickets...also... since cost is an option...compare prices on getting heavier weight rounds in either the 308 or 7-08 as compared to the 30-06...and the trajectories of each for those long shots...You will find it cheaper and wider selection available for the good ole -o6' than either of the others..

My most accurate 30-06 was my Ultra-Comp...it isa tack driver using Federal Fusion bonded ammo...

Practice does make perfect...and perfect practice is what makes you confident...Out fit your rifle...which ever caliber you choose to be comfortable...One thing for certain...this will make any caliber you shoot more enjoyable..



It is something I won't do with out on any handi...and your face is the first to get hit with the recoil...if it hurts on your cheek...you will hurt elsewhere...This is a Bob Allen shell holder I got for $3.50...and a little soft foam under it...I can have a soilid cheek weld with my heaviest kickers...and not feel anything on my face at all...

Good Luck on which ever choice you make

Mac
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2007, 07:19:19 PM »
mac11700 those groups you got with the federals look the same as they did coming out of my 700 adl in 30-06. I also raised the cheek like you did with the ammo holder and foam. How many yards were you shooting at? If you want cheap ammo look into core lokt express. Its always cheap. I know midway often has sales on ammo.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2007, 12:15:21 AM »
I would avoid the 7mm-08.  It kicks as bad as the .308, and it really doesn't compare very well.
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Offline bluebayou

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2007, 12:38:35 AM »
I will double check, but I am pretty sure that Wal-Mart sells the Remington 140 grain PSP for $16 (at least here in Southern OK). 

I disagree with Swampman, you are talking about a half millimeter in difference between 7mm-08 and 308.  What practical difference is there?  Bullet selection is the only real difference.  The 308 is marginally more convenient to find on the shelf.  Other than that...

Anecdotal evidence about "the deer that I shot" doesn't make decisions for me.  Since I am feeling argumentative, I will also say that I don't agree with Mac's advice about heavier bullets either.  I don't agree that ANY bullet will be less likely to deflect in brush. 

Some age old debates, in no particular order:
308 vs 30/06
"brush busting"
308 is the same as 7.62x51

I wholeheartedly agree with Mac's advice on the improvised cheekpiece.  I used this on a 12 gauge pump and it is much nicer to shoot.  If the stock doesn't fit then you will feel it on your cheek. 

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2007, 01:07:27 AM »
I am a little late here. You said that the majority of your shots will be at 75 yards and in, with an occasional shot "maybe" at 300 yards. The 30-30 will do a good job out to 200 yards or so. If your occasional shot is 300 yards and it is running, your chances of hitting it will be slim to none no matter what you are shooting. If it is walking/grazing at 300 yards, then stalk to with in 200 yards and then shoot it. Or figure out which direction it is walking/grazing and cut him off for a shorter shot. The 30-30 is hard to beat in any rifle, but in a Handi they are at the top or near the top of the heap. Just my 2 cents.
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Offline CoastalHunter

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2007, 02:03:50 AM »
 LaOtto222, I agree with you that the 30-30 would be just fine for most shots I would encounter. But seeing as I will be hunting in very thick cover from a tree stand so I can see down into it about 90% of the time stalking to within range is not really an option for me. Also from what I have seen in ballistics charts (I know, ballistic charts don't tell the whole story :) ) the 30-30's trajectory is more rainbow like and would make 200 yard shots much more difficult probably as difficult as a 300 yard shot with a .308 . I'm already handicapping myself (no pun intended) by using a single shot rifle I don't want to make it too difficult on myself, remember I haven't hunted in 17 years missing would be no fun   :). As far as taking 300 yard shots at running or walking deer for that matter there's no way I would take a low percentage shot like that, very unethical in my opinion. Sean

Offline PeterCartwright

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2007, 03:17:32 AM »
Given your description of your hunting area, preferences against recoil and for economy, I'd suggest you take a hard look at the .270 Winchester.  Don't know anything about how the Handi .270's shoot, but the 130 gr. standard cup/core bullets are usually offered at reduced prices during deer season at places like Wally World and the like.  Research into "brush busting" bullets has largely discounted the theory.  The flat trajectory of the .270 would enable you to "thead the needle" (assuming said rifle will be scoped, of course) through brush AND offer all the reach you'd want on more open shots.  Also, on balance, a higher velocity round (.270 vs. .30-30) would likely reduce the distance between where an animal is shot and where it is recovered-not by a lot, but some.  (No flames, please.  That's not a slam against the .30-30.  I just took two deer last week with mine!)  I just know that trying to follow a blood trail through wet country is no fun...and you folks have those slither critters to watch for, too, don't you?  Finally, the .270 Winnie offers this performance with relatively modest recoil.

Lot's of other good suggestions in other posts, too.

Offline saltydog

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2007, 03:24:45 AM »
30-30, 243 or 25:06 if you anticipate longer shots - The classic 30 -30 would be my first choice based on your comments. If you don't like the recoil of a 12 ga. you won't like the other larger calibers in a handi either. Federal Power Shok ammo from Cabelas at $10 a box is fine (130 or 150) - the advantage of higher bc bullets in a 30 -30 is mostly in the shooters mind as the cartridge runs out of flat trajectory at 200 yards regardless of bullet bc. 

Offline Mac11700

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2007, 04:32:12 AM »


Blue...

It is a well known fact that the heavier the bullet..the less likely it will be deflected or turned sideways..so it keyholes going into the animal...I'm not talking about not being able to hit the target after striking 1 dowel rod...but actually shooting into a thicket where multiple branches or vines may not be visible with a scope on low power..or with open sites.. A lot of the smaller bullets or poorly constructed bullets might not be the best choice.My preference's would for this type shooting would be a 405 grain WLNGC cast performance at 1800fps...over just about anything else..It certainly isn't a high percentage shot...but one that is taken more often than one would imagine.

Mac
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Offline bluebayou

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2007, 07:40:56 AM »
I still love you

Offline flintlock

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2007, 08:05:08 AM »
Coastal...The .243 will do all you need to do to our eastern NC deer...I grew up in Gates County, just north of you, between the Great Dismal Swamp and the Chowan River, what ain't crop fields it either swamps or cutovers...I've used my .243 since 1980, killed better than 150 with it...Just killed 5 with it last week...I've killed them crossing beaver dams, coming through cutovers, out in soybean fields, crossing power lines with deer hounds behind them and from 3 steps below the tree stand to 300 yards in cut corn fields...Putting them  down on the spot is no problem, just put it through the shoulder blade...This round is mild enough that you can shoot from either shoulder and never loose sight of the deer during the shot...

Offline Mac11700

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2007, 08:12:24 AM »
I still love you

 Aww...Gee...Thanks :D :D :D

Mac
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Offline Chilachuck

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2007, 09:04:03 AM »
Mac, I believe that someone did an experiment on brush deflection about 30 yrs ago. They shot at some wood dowels and compared the bite on the dowel with the deflection for several bullets, and the bullet wt did not matter.

Now, I suspect that heavier bullets retain velocity better so they do more damage when they hit, but "heavier" does not mean "more likely to hit".

Back to the original subject and poster, I notice no one has pointed out that extra barrels are available for the Handi Rifle, and are inexpensive. True, switching a scope means re-zeroing the scope and an extra scope costs money, but it's an option.

Reloading is not for everyone, I grant, but no one /has/ to reload just because he has a reloading kit. Lee Loaders are the cheapest kit around, take up next to no space, and do not involve pinched or cut off fingers if some little kid gets into it. They cost about $25 new and can be stored for 100's of yrs without damage to them, if they are stored right. When tight times come again, the only expenses would be for powder, primers, and bullets, all of which can be stored for 100yrs without deterioration. Total cost today for over 200 loads (depending on chambering) would be less than $100. 200 loads, 10 boxes of ammo, about $250.

No one has to reload today to make buying or trading for the basic supplies sensible, and the economy is not going to improve in the near future. Better to get them now, you might not be able to afford them later.

Offline flintlock

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2007, 11:09:33 AM »
Chilla...It was Jack O'Connor that did that test...Best way to "buck" brush is with a good scope and pick out a hole...

Offline CoastalHunter

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2007, 01:03:55 PM »
I read an article about 15 years ago where the author advocated using long for caliber high velocity rounds for thick brush. His argument for them was a long high speed projectile with a relatively fast rate of twist would restablize (is that a word) due to a stronger gyroscopic effect causing the bullet to recover quicker after hitting a small object on its way to the target. Also the flatter trajectory would allow you to thread the needle to the vitals better allowing you to not hit a twig or vine in the first place. That tends to make sense to me but thats just my opinion and its not based on any real world experience.  flintlock, I have really, really considered the .243, low recoil, flat trajectory and accurate in most rifles but Ive heard good things and bad things about its stopping power. I have a good friend at work who has hunted many years he reloads his own ammo and says he used a .243 for many years killing at least 150-200 deer with it. The only problem he had with it was some times when a deer is hit it doesent react as if it was hit at all, and that sometimes the blood trails left alot to be desired. Of coarse he also said that they sometimes drop right on the spot like they where struck by lightning. He told me a story of an 8 point he shot at 60 yards. He said it didnt react to the shot outher than running strait into a thicket he looked for blood all along the path it ran and couldnt find any but just to be sure he called his hunting club up on the CB and had them bring some dogs to put on it. After they let the dogs lose they ran about 75 yards into the thicket and started howling when they got there the deer was laying there stone cold dead with a large pool of blood under him and only a entrance hole no exit. What has been your experience with the stopping power with the .243? If I went with the .243 I probably would have to go with a Remington 2600 or a bolt gun due to the reviews I have read here about .243 Handi's accuracy which would add a lot more expense to getting set up for next years deer season. What do you all think?  Sean

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2007, 01:11:19 PM »
Here's one man's testing results, 5 pages of it....

Lessons learned:
1. Light weight, fast bullets like the .223 were knocked off their axis and deflected more than heavier bullets. In fact, it was flying sideways after 10 yards.

2. The .308 was not deflected as much as I would have thought. Not enough to miss a deer 10 yards behind the brush.
3. The .45-70 plowed through the dowel without much deflection.

4. The 12 gauge slug shrugged off the dowels and went right on to the target.

5. I brought a much larger piece of cardboard than I actually needed. I expected to see "feet" of deflection, not inches.


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Offline 30-06man

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2007, 01:39:19 PM »
Plain and simple the .308 is best for you. 243 I have seen way too many deer never recovered and injured. I wouldn't hunt with one anymore. The .308 can be a brush gun and it can be a long range gun.
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Offline CoastalHunter

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2007, 02:56:36 PM »
I'm gonna go with a .308. It meets all my criteria, a little more recoil than I wanted but I can mitigate that with a Limbsaver pad and some weight in the stock. I'm thinking something like a Survivor restocked with a Monte Carlo stock and matching forend (Will a handi Rifle forend fit a Survivor's bull barrel?)  using a Simmons Master Series Aetec 2.8x10x44 with lighted rectical. Maybe have a triggerjob done on it and bob the hammer so I can get the scope low over the bore and put enough weight it the stock to balance out the bull barrel for off hand shots. As far as ammo goes I was thinking maybe a 165 grain non bonded pointed soft point boatail. That should give me enough weight to get through lite brush but still expand quickly enough on small southern whitetails with plenty of down range velocity for reliable expansion at 200+ yards. I found this ammo at Cabelas its on back order right now but Im sure they will have more in after hunting season.http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?id=0024226215346a&navCount=2&podId=0024226&parentId=cat20839&masterpathid=&navAction=push&cmCat=MainCatcat20712-cat20839&catalogCode=IH&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat20839&hasJS=true  If its accurate in my rifle I could also use it for hunting it uses Speer bullets. What do you all think? Sean

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2007, 03:10:25 PM »
Or maybe a camo laminate, forend will fit fine!! ;)

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Offline flintlock

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2007, 03:25:17 PM »
Coastal, as I mentioned, I have used it since 1980, if I wasn't happy, I would have gotten rid of it long ago...
We kill 40-50 deer a year on our farms, one brother has 2-.270s, the other has a 7mm-08 and a .280, both have sons
that hunt as well...Last week, we killed 18 deer, of these 17 were killed with a .243 and none were lost...Last year I tracked
a deer about 150 yards, it was hit with a .270 by my brother, while tracking he made the comment, "Why is it that you drop them
in the field and mine run off"...It's an over used statement but it is truly is where you hit them that makes for a quick kill....I only own
one center fire rifle (bet you don't know anyone else that owns more flintlocks than center fires)...I just haven't ever needed more...
I know when I line up the cross hairs and pull the trigger, that's a dead deer, whether or not they drop depends on where I decide to
hit them...

But...You are right, if there are problems getting a .243 in a Handi to group, get a 7mm-08 or a .308, because confidence is more
important than size....

Offline CoastalHunter

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2007, 03:39:01 PM »
quickdtoo, does H&R still offer that stock anymore? I looked on there web site and all they offered there where a Walnut finished or synthetic stock. If I could get one in camo laminate or better yet one of the camo dipped stocks that was at the top of there ordering page that would be great ;D. I'm a bit of a camo freak ;). flintlock, from most everthing Ive read on GBO the .243 Handi is hit and miss in the accuracy department. I would just feel better knowing my rifle is capable of 2moa or better when I pull the trigger on a deer. Like you said its a confidence thing more than a .243 can't get the job done thing.  Sean

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2007, 03:59:12 PM »
Yes they do, just read thru the FAQs and you'll learn a lot more than you ever thought you could about H&R firearms. ;D Most all of the stocks are listed in the 2007 Retail Parts Price list or the thread it's in located within the FAQs. ;) While you're in there, look at all 4 pages of the link to "Let's See Some Handis" lots of pics.

Tim
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Offline Chilachuck

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2007, 04:17:48 PM »
Looks like I'm going to have to rethink on caliber.

Then again, I don't shoot through brush, not after being sure I was seeing and hearing
a deer, and it was another hunter blowing his nose in a white hankie.

No, I did not shoot at him.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2007, 06:06:43 PM »
Coastalhunter:  First of all throw that recoil chart away.  Forget it.  Don't need it.  It will only make you paranoid.  I take 14 and 15 year old kids and have them shooting my 30-06s in a week.  First of all make sure the gun fits you, if it don't it will hurt.  Second, learn how to shoot.  Oh, I don't mean aiming and hitting your target.  I mean how to properly hold your gun, roll that stock into the pocket of your shoulder.  Use your left hand to firmly pull back to hold it in place against your shoulder.  Lean slightly into it, and practice a good controlled trigger squeeze.  A lot of southern boys seem to think that shooting is hereditary, you know something you just know how to do, you don't have to learn it.  Don't fall into that trap, like I did.  I know I'm from the south myself and fell into that mindset once.  Till my Uncle ( A retired Master Sargent) took me out and showed me how much I did not know.  Once you've learned how to master recoil, nothing will phase you, except maybe a .416 Rigby in a light weight single shot.  Ouch! 

Then as for a gun, I'd go with the 30-06, or a .308.  And as for shooting prone, unless you've had some military, formal training, or at least a lot of practice, don't do it while hunting.  It's a good way to brake your collar bone. 
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2007, 06:34:06 PM »
Here's one man's testing results, 5 pages of it....

Lessons learned:
1. Light weight, fast bullets like the .223 were knocked off their axis and deflected more than heavier bullets. In fact, it was flying sideways after 10 yards.

2. The .308 was not deflected as much as I would have thought. Not enough to miss a deer 10 yards behind the brush.
3. The .45-70 plowed through the dowel without much deflection.

4. The 12 gauge slug shrugged off the dowels and went right on to the target.

5. I brought a much larger piece of cardboard than I actually needed. I expected to see "feet" of deflection, not inches.


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot40.htm

I read that a few weeks ago Tim...and the main problem I have with these "static" test is none of them...or the one mentioned by O'Conner...replicate shooting thru a brush pile with choke vines old growth honeysuckle vines and sticks and branches that are both live & dead...that a person can run into...around here...I can shoot a 338 caliber Accubond completely thru a dead stump and still hit a deer behind it...but...that isn't indicative of being a brush busting cartridge either...I've done my own testing over the years...rigging up vines sticks bamboo cat tails and such and had a go at them with a 4x8' piece of card board backer 6' board behind it...and I'm telling you what I know from first hand experience...and also loosing $100 bucks in a bet with my neighbor at the time..That man while he was alive is who I consider one of the best marksman on running game....He was using his Remington pump in 30-06 shooting 180 & 200 grain loads...as well as his pump 35 Whelen and the 2 factory loads...I was using my 270 with 130 & 150 grain partitions...my 30-30 with partitions..Guess which bullets won...9 out of 10 times from 50 yards & 100 yards...He also brought out his AR in 223...and was the first time I have ever seen a bullet unwind on a limb it hit...all was left was a unraveled copper jacket...Wooden dowels that are secured at the base don't really cut it with me like I said before...I've never seen a grove of them in the wild...


Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2007, 06:59:59 PM »
Here's another man's opinion on brush buster rounds...

Hunter's Guide to Whitetail Rifles By Michael Schoby
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2007, 07:12:14 PM »
And another...

Bolt Guns in the Bushes By Wayne van Zwoll

Quick follow-up shots and bullets that cannon through undergrowth: solutions to problems I didn’t have. Oh, I like the woods, sure enough. I’ve hunt there since the ‘60s, since a whitetail buck barreled from a stand of pines and sprinted away. I fired almost without aiming, as if at a grouse. The deer skidded on his nose.

Years later, in the mountains, I shot deer more deliberately-like the big buck that peeked at me from a patch of white bark pine below a ridge line in the Wallowas. When I triggered my rifle, he went limp. So did a black tail buck in alders and an elk that appeared the mist. The woods have been kind to me, perhaps because I spend so much time there. Let other hunters swarm the meadows and cuts and croplands. A mediocre marksman, I don’t like to shoot far. Nor do I enjoy crowds.

On occasion I’ve been thwarted by trees in front of my cross wires. Often the animals hide better than I can see. And every season I prowl timber that shows me nothing for my efforts. But I persist. In thickets, game finds shelter, shade and seclusion. A lot of hunters go where the looking is easy; finding is better in the brush. Of course, you can’t shoot far in the woods. The deer and elk mentioned were killed at slingshot ranges-- between 14 and 32 yards. You can’t wring out your super-magnum rifle and its Hubble-size sight in a copse of aspens or a lodge pole jungle. But short shots can still test your marksmanship. A couple years ago, still hunting a steep north face, I spied a patch of yellow through the dark boles of Douglas firs. In the scope it became an elk. Eighty yards. I concluded. Can’t miss. I fired quickly and did miss. An elk is a big animal, but its forward ribs are a smaller target, and when you see only a patch of elk the size of a softball, you’d best take your time.

Usually, you have plenty. Of time, that is. The animal is already in what it perceives as a secure place. Unless you’ve announced yourself with a heavy step, careless movement or upwind approach, you have just as much time as if your target were lounging like a Hereford on the far side of a canyon. The notion that you must always shoot fast in the brush is nonsense. So, too, is the idea that fast follow-up shots will pile up the venison. Repeat shots are necessary only if you botch the first one, which is commonly your best chance. And about bullets: Although the old bromides call for "Brush-busting" ammo, . there’s no evidence that your bullet must rip through several board feet of cellulose en route to animals in timber. It’s always better to shoot between the branches rather than through them. Besides, a bullet that mows poplars would be uncomfortable to launch. I’ve documented deflection of a variety of bullet types and weights in half-inch sagebrush limbs, finding none--neither 250-grain .35 Whelen bullets, nor 370-grain black powder conicals, nor one-ounce shotgun slugs–that could be depended upon to penetrate straight. Deflection In the first 110 feet of travel after branch contact was commonly several inches. Sometimes the bullets tumbled or showed partial upset at target entry.

 

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: New to high powered rifles, need advice
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2007, 07:20:36 PM »
And another short one...

Bullet Performance
Guns Magazine,  July, 2001  by Dan Johnson


Brush Deflection

It was once a favorite topic of conversation which bullet could best plow through the intervening vegetation and put meat on the table. Now we know that any shot through the brush is a poor gamble. A bullet that will shoot through an engine block will turn tail and run when it meets a sap-filled twig. There are however, a few things that will tilt the odds slightly in your favor.

Slow heavy bullets have always been promoted as the best for hunting in thick cover, but military testing at Aberdeen Proving Grounds suggest this theory is only half right. While a heavy blunt bullet does show an advantage, high velocity rather than low velocity seems to be a key factor in getting through the brush. Also, the bullet should be properly matched to the barrel's rate of twist for maximum stability. A bullet with marginal stability is easily tumbled.

Finally, the bullet should be of heavy construction. Many times, a fragile bullet will simply break apart when it meets with even light resistance.

 
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain