Author Topic: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?  (Read 19772 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #210 on: May 27, 2008, 07:48:55 AM »
The new mini with ammo it likes will give 2.5 - 3 inch groups at 100 yards most of the time . the mini 30 is close to same , both when using Ruger mags .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #211 on: May 27, 2008, 11:05:50 AM »
are these your rifles or someone you have observed on the range ?
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #212 on: May 27, 2008, 01:17:45 PM »
I read an article somewhere, and I can't find a link.  The guy cut his Mini-14 barrel back to 16-1/2" to make it legal.  He tightened the bolts where the gas leaves the barrel to work the action.  This alone cut his groups from around 3" down to around an inch.  He said the barrel was thin and by cutting back, he was able to reduce barrel vibration to improve accuracy.  I don't know what tightening the screws did.  This is a very strong rifle, all steel, if only Ruger had installed a heavier barrel for accuracy. 

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #213 on: May 27, 2008, 03:00:22 PM »
DD, I am guessing this is with an older Mini, not current production.
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #214 on: May 28, 2008, 01:04:34 AM »
Mine !
Thanks for asking !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #215 on: May 28, 2008, 01:49:37 AM »
Yes, it was an older rifle.  For about $200, I've seen where you could order a heavy barrel with a new resized barrel band where the gas ports are.  But why pay $800 for the rifle when you can get an AR for around $500 and magazines for $10 each. 

Offline teddy12b

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #216 on: May 28, 2008, 03:34:45 AM »
I agree about not spending the money on a mini when you can get an AR that shoots the same bullet much more accurately when comparing off the shelf rifles.  The AR's at least in my area sell for no less than $800 and a Mini goes for at least 500 - 600.  The new target mini's are a different animal all together.  I've read some great reviews about those.

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #217 on: May 28, 2008, 04:48:22 AM »
I have read a couple of good reviews of the target Mini 14.  It weighs 2.5# more than a standard one. That muzzle wt. is just butt ugly. I really hope the new Mini 14/30 are more accurate than the older models. It is a fun gun and for those concerned about P.C. it is NOT a "BLACK RIFLE". Trouble is, any 5.56/.223 that won't shoot 55gr ball is not much use to most of us.

Shoot. Tell us more of your Mini 14. what load do you use for better accuracy? How many do you have?
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #218 on: May 28, 2008, 05:19:04 AM »
Most of the time Winchester 55 gr ball .
a surprise was that Winchester 45 gr hp worked well also ( 3" group most of the time , wind plays heck with it ) .I shoot ground  hogs with the 45 gr hp so it was nice it worked in the mini-14 also . I picked up some 68 gr bullets i think that is the weight not in front of me  but have not loaded them yet . Got busy with a new !0 mm and 327 fed mag .
SA you mentioned .223 and .556 i have no problem with either in the Ruger and to be honest i didn't have a problem in the Colt HB i had but a friend has an AR that refuses to cycle one or the other ( can't remember which one ) .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #219 on: May 28, 2008, 05:29:28 AM »
Has anyone tried the Kel-Tec SU rifle?  If so care to tell us about it.  I have though about getting one since they take AR mags, but they fold up nice and have a piston gas system. 

Offline ronbow

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #220 on: June 03, 2008, 08:18:22 AM »
ammo smaller than 308 ?
ain't bigger better !

More is always better.

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #221 on: June 03, 2008, 08:21:29 AM »
if some is good, more is better, and too much is almost enough
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #222 on: June 03, 2008, 08:50:06 AM »
Didn't say i didn't shoot um ! For fun at the range or to kill a SMALL critter .
But the ? was my choice ! still the M1 -A .
We have this target at the range that has a moving plate in the center of the chest . You hit it and it moves around and out to the side . You hit it there and it moves back to center of the chest . Its about a 4 inch cut out in the main target and about a 6 inch circle as the moving plate . The 223 won't work it the 308 does so with authority , i find that informative . It a 100 yard target .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ronbow

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #223 on: June 03, 2008, 08:51:45 AM »
Well as to the M-14/16 debate I have yet to hear any thing about the practicality of humping either one along with all the ammo you can possibly carry. Having humped both and ifred both, IMHO the m-16 wins hands down. This is due to the weight factor (meaning you can carry more ammo) and the recoil factor. The m16 clearly has the advantage of staying on target. The fact that the m14 is better suited for hand to hand combat is a joke. One of the first things to go after the gas mask was the bayonet to make room for (you guessed it) more ammo. Yardage ? Hah. Unless you are a sniper, in a firefight you ain't got a clue if it's 200, 300 or whatever. Ambushes (either way) don't happen at 400 yards.

Offline myronman3

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #224 on: June 04, 2008, 02:53:11 AM »
tell it like it is, brother...

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #225 on: June 04, 2008, 09:34:07 AM »
I tend to side with those who 'been an done'. Whether it was the big muddy or the sand box. Their opinions mean SOOOOOOOOOOOO much more than those of us who 'never been' and 'never done'. Hunting does not count. Battle does.
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #226 on: June 04, 2008, 09:44:52 AM »
Even all those that have served don't always agree . Keep in mind the Wizz kids were not all warriors and they got to choose ( bean counters ). But thats why we fight to have a choice now ain't it ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #227 on: June 04, 2008, 10:34:59 AM »
the wizz kids, mcnamara et al were in washington,not the big muddy
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #228 on: June 05, 2008, 01:32:56 AM »
That's my point , and they got to pick the M-16 and then force their choice on the military . Now after years of redevelopment it still is lacking in some areas improved in others . ( yes my choice is lacking in some areas also ) Which only proves none are perfect and indivisual choice is just that .
Keep in mind that Govt. contracts go to the LOWEST bidder often reviewed by BEAN COUNTERS not end users !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ronbow

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #229 on: June 05, 2008, 02:56:11 AM »
That's my point , and they got to pick the M-16 and then force their choice on the military . Now after years of redevelopment it still is lacking in some areas improved in others . ( yes my choice is lacking in some areas also ) Which only proves none are perfect and indivisual choice is just that .
Keep in mind that Govt. contracts go to the LOWEST bidder often reviewed by BEAN COUNTERS not end users !

Actually it appears that the Army (beginning in 1948 before McNamara et al) had quite a say in adopting the M-16.

 1948. U.S. Army's Operations Research Office (ORO) conducts a research about small arms effectiveness. This research was completed by the early 1950 with the conclusion that the most desirable infantry small arms should be of 22 caliber, select-fire and with high velocity bullets, effective up to 300 meters or so.
1953 - 1957. US DOD conducts the next research, "Project SALVO", that also lead to the desirability of .22 caliber high-velocity infantry rifle
1957. The US Army requests the Armalite Division of the Fairchild Aircraft Corp to develop a rifle of .22 caliber, lightweight, select-fire, and capable to penetrate the standard steel helmet at 500 meters. The Eugene Stoner, then a designer at the Armalite, began to develop this rifle, based on his earlier design, 7.62mm AR-10 battle rifle. At the same time, experts at the Sierra Bullets and the Remington, in conjunction with Armalite, began do develop a new .22 caliber cartridge, based on the .222 Remington and .222 Remington Magnum hunting cartridges. This development, initially called the .222 Remington Special, was finally released as .223 Remington (metric designation 5.56x45mm).
1958. Armalite delivers first new rifles, called the AR-15, to the Army for testing. Initial tests display some reliability and accuracy problems with the rifle.
1959. Late that year Fairchild Co, being disappointed with the development of the AR-15, sold all rights for this design to the Colt's Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company.
1960. Eugene Stoner leaves the Armalite and joins the Colt. The same year Colt demonstrated the AR-15 to the US Air Force Vice Chief of Staff, Gen. LeMay. Gen. LeMay wanted to procure some 8 000 AR-15 rifles for US AF Strategic Air Command security forces to replace ageing M1 and M2 carbines.
1962. US DoD Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA) purchases 1000 AR-15 rifles from Colt and sends those rifles to the South Vietnam, for field trials. Same year brings glowing reports about the effectiveness of the new "black rifle", used by South Vietnamese forces.
1963. Colt receives contracts for 85 000 rifles for US Army (designated as XM16E1) and for further 19 000 rifles for US Air Forces (M16). The US AF M16 was no more than an AR-15 rifle with appropriate markings. The XM16E1 differed from AR-15/M16 by having an additional device, the so called "forward assist", which was used to manually push the bolt group in place in the case of jams.
1964. US Air Forces officially adopted new rifle as M16. Same year US Army adopted the XM16E1 as a limited standard rifle, to fill the niche between discontinued 7.62mm M14 rifle and the forthcoming SPIW system (which newer got past the prototype and trial stages).
1966. Colt was awarded with the contract for some 840 000 rifles for US Armed forces, worth almost $92 millions.
1967. US Army adopted the XM16E1 rifle as a standard "US Rifle, 5.56mm, M16A1", on 28 February 1967.
1965 - 1967. Field reports from Vietnam began to look much more pessimistic. M16 rifles, issued to US troops in the Vietnam, severely jammed in combat, resulting in numerous casualties. There were some causes for malfunction. First of all, during the introduction of the new rifle and its ammunition into the service, US Army replaced originally specified Dupont IMR powder with standard ball powder, used in 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition. The ball powder produced much more fouling, that quickly jammed the actions of the M16 unless the gun was cleared well and often. This pitifully combined with the fact that the initial M16 rifles were promoted by the Colt as "low maintenance", so, for the sake of economy, no cleaning supplies were procured for new M16 rifles, and no weapon care training was conducted fro the troops. As a result, soldiers did not knew how to clean their rifles, and had no provisions for cleaning, and thing soon turned bad. To add the trouble, the ball powders also had a different pressure curve, so they produced higher pressures at the gas port, giving the rise to the rate of fire, and, thus, decreasing accuracy and increasing parts wear.
1967 - 1970. The deficiencies discovered in previous years began do dissolve. 5.56mm ammunition was now loaded using different powders that produce much less residue in the gun action. The barrel, chamber and bolt of the rifles were chrome-lined to improve corrosion resistance. Cleaning kits were procured and issued to troops, and a special training programs were developed and conducted ever since. Earliest cleaning kits could be carried separate from rifle only, but since circa 1970 all M16A1 rifles were manufactured with the containment cavity in the buttstock, that held the cleaning kit. At the same time (circa 1970) the new 30 rounds magazines were introduced into service instead of the original 20 rounds ones, to equal Soviet and Chinese AK-47 assault rifles, which had 30-rounds magazines from the very beginning.
1977 - 1979. NATO trials lead to the adoption of the improved 5.56x45mm cartridge, developed in Belgium by FN. This cartridge, initially developed in conjunction with the FN Minimi light machine gun, featured a slightly heavier bullet with accordingly slightly lower muzzle velocity. The resulting long-range performance, however, improved due to the better ballistic coefficient of the new bullet. The SS109 required a faster rifling twist to stabilize its bullet, than the original 5.56x45mm US M193 ammunition. The M193 was used with barrels rifled with 1:12 twist (1 turn in 12 inches), and SS109 was preferred to be fired with 1:7 twist (1 turn in 7 inches). Some arms manufacturers preferred to make their guns with intermediate 1:9 rifling, which would be equally good (or bad) for both old and new loadings.
1981. Colt developed a variation of the M16A1, adapted for the SS109/5.56mm NATO cartridge, and submitted it to the military trials as the M16A1E1. This rifle differed from the M16A1 by having the heavier barrel with faster 1:7 rifling, a different type rear sights (adjustable for both range and windage), round handguards instead of triangular ones, and by replacing the full-auto fire mode with the burst (limited to 3 rounds per trigger pull), to preserve the ammunition.
1982. M16A1E1 is type-classified by US DoD as the "US Rifle, 5.56mm, M16A2".
1983. US Marine Corps adopted the M61A2 rifle.
1985. US Army officially adopted the M16A2 as the general issue infantry rifle.
1988. The FN Manufacturing Co, an US subsidiary of the FN Herstal (Belgium), becomes the key contractor to US DoD for production of the M16A2 rifles. Colt continues the development and manufacture of the AR-15 / M16 type rifles only for civilian and law enforcement markets from that point.
1994. Adoption of the latest variations of the M16 breed. Those include: M16A3and M16A4 rifles, with "flat top" receivers, that had a Picatinny accessory rails in the place of the integral carrying handle. The rail can be used to mount detachable carrying handle with iron rear sights, or various sighting devices (Night/IR, optics etc). The M16A4 otherwise is similar to M16A2, while M16A3 has a full-auto capability instead of the 3-rounds burst. Two other newest AR-15 offsprings are the M4 and M4A1 carbines, which are described in the separate article on this site.

Offline rzwieg

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #230 on: June 07, 2008, 12:33:04 AM »
It seems the battle for the best individual weapon goes on.

Offline phalanx

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #231 on: June 08, 2008, 02:41:22 PM »
A lot of this depends on the situation you find yourself in. If you are in an urban area ,shotguns are great but look how they are used in the sand box.
They are a support weapon ,surrounded by men with the M4 ,the reason is they are slow to reload and a lot of rounds can take up a lot of space.
Carbines are the norm in this scenario ,the M4 ,a good AK , and lots of mags. A running battle in a city street may not allow you time to reload a shotgun ,or a mag .so the mags need to be pre-loaded.
Teams here are a benefit to all concerned ,like divers in a swarm of sharks ,back to back covering each other.
Where i live 308 ,or any larger caliber designed for range and knock down. The object here is to not allow your Enemy the opportunity to get in close.
M14 ,HK91 ,FAL etc.
If the enemy does get in close then the carbines are better than swinging a long rifle here and there. The shotguns should be given to those defending inside a house or the children ,the Army has done test on this and a shot gun is a better defensive weapon than an offensive.
Sidearms ,the 1911 is my choice , but the 40 has a lot going for it also , in a 9mm frame handgun you get a lot more knock down.
The 40 has relegated the 9mm into frames once seen in the 380 , and the IDF is about to go to this caliber and away from the 9mm.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #232 on: June 09, 2008, 04:35:32 AM »
phalanx, twice you used the phrase "knock down". there is no such thing as knock down power in a hand held weapon. basic physics. if it can knock down the target it will knock you down when you shoot it.
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline phalanx

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #233 on: June 09, 2008, 01:40:30 PM »
A 45ACP ,knocks them down pretty darn good.
In this time i Command ,That you take the Secular to Jerusalem .
There you rid the Holy City of the Scourge of Islam , Make the streets run red with the Blood of those who wish to wash Israel and Christianity from the face of the Earth.
Constantine III

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #234 on: June 09, 2008, 01:48:18 PM »
again, basic physics. if a .45 could knock down a person, it would knock you down when you fired it. equal and opposite reactions. I do not deny the .45 is a fine cartridge, having fired over 100k of them, but, it will not knock down a person, bowling pins yes, people no.
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #235 on: June 09, 2008, 03:15:18 PM »
I've seen deer shot and completly knocked off their feet onto the ground, but I didn't fall.  The opposite reaction is absorbed by the weight of the gun and the weight of the person.  200 lb mass absorbs a 200 grain bullet's reaction with only a few inches reaction.  The bullet's speed hits the deer around the speed of sound, and it is not expecting anything. 

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #236 on: June 09, 2008, 10:19:59 PM »
still, they are not "knocked down". Mostly what is seen is a nerve reaction to the hydrostatic shock destroying nerves and the muscles reacting to the nerve damage. dramatic yes, but not literally knocked down. I have seen video of an elephant dropping from a head shot, but then it got back up. Was the elephant knocked down, no. reaction to a powerful blow to the brain yes. I have also seen shooters LITERALLY knocked off their feet by a Tyrannosaur .577 rifle. That cartridge HAS knock down power.
SharonAnne
Luke 22:36-38

Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #237 on: June 10, 2008, 01:49:59 AM »
Then what term is correct ?
Also one must consider the fact that the blow is not distributed equal in a gun . The butt of a rifle spreads the effect vs. the small area the bullet impact delivers to the target .
Say your gun has a butt plate 5 inches long toe to heel and averages 1.5 inches wide giving 7.5 sq inches . If the bullet you shoot is .30 if it were a sq. bullet it would still be less than a 1/3 of a sq. inch . I believe this is why some things hit with a bullet react different than a shooter pushed by recoil . We shoot a 1/2 steel plate at 100 yards a 3006 will ring it , and make a slight mark . a 458 win mag will pass thru with 500 gr. solids . the 458 win mag has not passed thru my shoulder yet . Granted after 10-12 shots with the 458 it feels like something passed thru my shoulder , neck , back and everything else .
When a bullet strikes a man or beast many forces are at work even the mind set of the one getting shot . So from a pure mathatical point of view SA has a point but as a hunter i have shot quite a few deer that have hit the ground at the crack of the gun going off leading one to believe it knocked them down . ( and many more that didn't fall down for a few seconds )
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline ronbow

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #238 on: June 10, 2008, 04:59:59 AM »
"Fall down" What caliber makes whatever it hits fall down faster given the target is hit in the same spot from the same distance.  ;D

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?
« Reply #239 on: June 10, 2008, 05:03:33 AM »
works for me !
but as hard as i try i don't hit them all the same , can't get um to stand the same !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !