WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?

[myronman3]

Aren't most ? Missions suicide .

hardly.  you read too many action stories. 

Would my opinion be easier for you if I sugar coat it ? I  sit up at night worrying about all my GB friends with AR's wishing they had M1-A's .

  iff'n i want a given gun, i have it.   anyone ever say i didnt already have one? 

I did leave off the !!!!!!!! to make an easy read for ya .

not only do i appreciate that; but it makes you appear more intelligent, and makes the post much easier to read.

[SharonAnne]

so all troops could have the equal of a BAR if team leader felt the need .
With the release of the scout and socom models of the M1-A I can't imagine anything a M-16 could do better !

I sit up at night worrying about all my GB friends with ARs wishing they had M1As

NO, most missions are NOT suicide missions.

The use of the M15 as a BAR substitute was abandoned before seeing combat. It was totally uncontrollable. An M14 on full auto was worse.

You seem to confuse Springfield Armory with a military producer. It is entirely civilian. The Scout and 'socom' are NOT being issued to our troops.

Glad to see you are not worrying about me.  AR15 owners could have anything they/we want. I had an M14 (M1A being a Springfield trademark). I sold it. As I did my M1 and L1A1. I do regret selling the L1A1. But I am quite happy with my AR15 and have no desire to get another M14. If you think we sit around wishing for M14s you are deluded.

[SHOOTALL]

SharonAnne , guess a friend of mine was mistaken when he said his leader often had 2 placed on full auto when they were stopped or in position . And yes he said it was a hand full more to some than others . What is a m-15 ?
No i did not confuse SA with govt. contractors can't imagine how you read that in ? My point was the civilian buyer has more option today . But it has been reported that SA has supplied parts and weapons for speical projects to the GOVT.
The suicide thing was humor , guess you missed it ! I am sure those that understood enjoyed it !
And you could not be more correct I'm not worrying about you ! See we agree on some things !

myronman3 , suicide mission , joke !
Didn't say what you had , was talking about friends !
Hate to break it to ya but your perception of me is not on my GASA list !

By the way I formed my opinion from owning and shooting AR-15's and shooting M-16's . Lets face it you think its the best thing since sliced bread and I see it like the New Coke deal a few years back !
You seem to have such a low opinion of me ! So why does my opinion and grammar hold such a promenant place in your post ?

In keeping with the org. ? M1-A's are the best !

[myronman3]

myronman3 , suicide mission , joke !
Didn't say what you had , was talking about friends !

once again, you are all wet.   we know what you were implying. 

 

Lets face it you think its the best thing since sliced bread and I see it like the New Coke deal a few years back !

when did i say that?  did i EVER say the m16/ar was better than the m14/m1?  i was simply defending it as an accurate, effective weapon system after you repeatedly trashed it and it's accuracy.

You seem to have such a low opinion of me ! So why does my opinion and grammar hold such a promenant place in your post ?

my opinion of you is based strickly on what i have read in your posts.   i have seen you repeatedly put down others because they have a different take on things than you.  you tell one person they cant shoot worth beans (saying you will beat them at twice the distance), then you try to pass it off as an attempt at 'being nice'.   then, when you are called on it by her, you dodge and change the subject.  as a person reading the post, i put my take on the situation out in the open (as did others).  then you accuse me of trying to gain favor with that member strickly because what i posted didnt support your actions.    now your are crying "poor me".   if anyone is guilty of personal attacks, it is you.
   it is no wonder why you irritate me.   add to that your ignorant use of the exclaimation point, and things just get worse.  sometimes i wonder if you are typing from the inside of a whiskey bottle.   i guess that would explain alot.  i say that because those are typically the type of people who can do so much and blame everyone else; nothing is ever their fault.   oh, and some minorities and liberals.   i  truely hope that isnt the case.

[SHOOTALL]

Never trashed the AR's accy. I have reservation on power ! At least get it straight !
How is offering to pick up targets saying some one can't shoot ? Are you a spin doctor or what ?
and that was a cut on the power and effective range not accy . Ya'll make such an effort to spin a joke into the world is coming to an end type thing , some have a sense of humor and some don't ! get over it !
And for what it is worth i do not drink whiskey or other alc. , was that another effort on spin or just plain normal BS from you ?
And in my opinion if  anyone is wet it must be you from the spit  you are spewing out of control over my post !
I suggest you refrain from reading my post they seem to upset you and you should not allow anyone on the WWW to have that much control !
I offered what your post looked like to me , and I have never claimed POOR ME , nor have i asked for help in supporting my opinion , Guess I don't need to herd up or pack !
You really should say something on topic and not just bash me , wouldn't want them to toss you off and loose the entertainment !
M1-A still the way to go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! M1-A !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! M1-A
I would guess this will get locked due to lack of on topic debate or quality information transfer !

[myronman3]

or maybe it will be locked due to overuse of the exclaimation key.   all a person would have to do to drive you nuts is pry that key off your computer.   

[SHOOTALL]

naw , I would just pick  another one ! there are a bunch of buttons ! # ^% !(&  ! etc.
The only thing that really burns my butt is  a fire about 3'-6" high !

And keeping with the topic - That M1-A is the best !

[SharonAnne]

at what?

[SharonAnne]

Humor is very subjective. So far the only one who gets your humor is you. Everyone else replying sees you as I do.

[Old Syko]

at what?

Club?  Due to excess weight.

Canoe paddle?  Lack of collapsible stock.

No humor intended.

[myronman3]

careful, syko, last time i said something shootall accused me of trying to win sharons favor.     heaven only knows what accusation will be thrown your way now.

[SHOOTALL]

old syko it will do all those and more and keep on shooting ! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Didn't take it as humor , figure you reconize the value it has !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

myronman3 , he attacked the gun not me ! SPIN or BS

SharonAnne , at what ?
Yes humor is subjective , I enjoy it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[myronman3]

anyone know what a flannel mouth is?

[SHOOTALL]

no you got one ?
How does it relate to battle rifles ?

[SharonAnne]

shoot, I am very sure you amuse yourself.

you said the M1A was the best. i asked at what? heavier-yes.  lower magazine capacity-yes. less accurate-yes. harder hitting-yes (depending on who you listen to). so far 1 of 4 related to the AR15.

You keep omitting that part of your picking up targets comment was that they would be at 1/2 the distance of yours. thus suggesting you can outshoot me with your targets at twice the distance. seems the only one who did not read it that way is you. seems you attempts at subtlety are lacking, just like your attempts at humor.

You claim to be knowledgeable about the M14, with its' M1 heritage but you don't know what an M15 is. You need to do some research.

[Dixie Dude]

As mentioned, I have an AR-15 and a L1A1. 
AR-15 is lighter, easy to to clean, haven't gotten it dirty enough to jam, easy to accessorize.  It can kill up to deer size animals with right bullet placement.  I'm not talking about wounding one and having it run off an die.  Ammo is cheap so practicing is less expensive.  Adapters can be had to shoot .22LR in a survival situation.  Reloading requires much less powder.  However, what is the maximum effective kill range for humans and or animals. 

L1A1 is heavier, easy to clean.  Can shoot dirty with the adjustable gas regulator.  Can kill big game animals fairly easy.  Is heavier to lug around for long periods of time.  Can use adapters as single shots for 30 carbine or .32 acp in a survival situation.  Compare the maximum effective kill range for humans and animals.  (Same for the M1A)

If I were going to survive east of the Mississippi if TSHF situation, the AR-15 might be more practical.  However west of the Mississippi in open or mountain country or Alaska the L1A1 would be a better choice.  You would run into more human predators east of the Mississippi. 

I think they both have their place and surviving with a family, both should be available. 

Again, I would like to see someones chart on the effective kill range of both.  Paper targets at 600 or 1000 yards doesn't tell me anything.  Any rifle can be made to shoot accurately with the right tweaking and operator.  What is the penetration depth?  What about mushrooming ammo not FMJ? 

[Old Syko]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Talk about value.

[SHOOTALL]

ANN , i was talking guns not your ability or lack there of !( which i haven't a clue about ) DD east or west power is power ! remember the bean field rifle was perfected in South Carolina , get real ! and if cost is a problem then you keep good company as it seems that was motivation in choosing the AR and then the M16 .
OS , enjoy !

[Dixie Dude]

As I stated, Both have their place.  Staying put at a retreat, the more powerful gun would be the one to choose.  If on the move the AR would be the choice (weight and ammo).  However, I have both because I think both are or may be needed and have their place.  I also reload for both.  No problem with me.  I am for both sides.  Each have their positives and negatives.  I think all things considered.  A lot depends on your location.  Do you live in a heavily wooded area?, wide open area?  Easily defended area?  In the middle of town?  Do you live in town and may have to retreat to another area?  On foot? In a vehicle?  Each have their place.  One must choose based on many questions that must be answered. 

[myronman3]

shoot, I am very sure you amuse yourself.

i think that is about the only one amused.

You keep omitting that part of your picking up targets comment was that they would be at 1/2 the distance of yours. thus suggesting you can outshoot me with your targets at twice the distance. seems the only one who did not read it that way is you. seems you attempts at subtlety are lacking, just like your attempts at humor.

he isnt going to address that,  or admit he did anything wrong.  might as well just consider the source. 

You claim to be knowledgeable about the M14, with its' M1 heritage but you don't know what an M15 is. You need to do some research.

you mean read yet another book?   i got 100 bucks that says 95% of his knowlege comes from what he has read; just like a college kid that knows much but yet not much at all.   he has done more to point this out than i ever could.   at this point what else could you say to him that would make a difference?  it is a waste of our time, since he obviously knows more than anyone else (cause he read about it).   

[Old Syko]

My now 83 year old father carried a Garand during his stint in the European theatre in the '40s and since that was what he carried and it got him home alive it earned a special place for him.  He owns a shining example of the same weapon right now and wouldn't hesitate to again use it as his primary defensive weapon.  Yet the first time he tried out an honest M4 his comment was something to the effect that if they had had such a weapon available back then he would have been home in much less time.  Just because a weapon is your favorite doesn't mean it is the best for every application.  In my present location the AR would be the ideal choice of what I presently own  due to the varying surroundings.  More accuracy long range than the AKs and better handling in close quarters than the M1s.    

[myronman3]

i recently shot a garand, and my, what a weapon it was.  loading it SUCKED, but from there out it was pure sweetness.   and i wont even talk about the shots i made with it. 

[teddy12b]

I've shot a garand before and it's a fine rifle.  I'd really like to get one of them some time for a collection & range gun.  There is so much history with those guns and honestly, who doesn't want a semi auto 30-06?

[SHOOTALL]

MYRONMAN3 , the M-14 cured the loading thing . In reality it is a simple task to load a M-1 as 100000's learned in the 40's !
you profess to know alot about me , most of your assumptions are BS like most of your post ! But don't stop the personal attacks  as IROTFLMAO when i read them ! Tell the truth who do you like attacking more REDHAWK-1 or me ?
You really hang on my every post ! And no i wasn't wrong and have nothing to admit , you were correct that time !

DD i agree with that , but add if you can't carry a golf bag full of hardware you better have one piece that will meet worst case . And a driver is better than a putter .
I have and load for the .223 also but in a mini 14  . Ruger mini -14 is not as accurate as some ( most )of the AR's i have shot/owned  so don't go there , It works close enough to the M-14 that it is comfortable to switch between the two . also have it in mini-30 . Which backs your idea of different application .
OS , thank your dad ! and to each his own the question was your choice and i will stick to my choice in a battle rifle . if ask for a choice in an assault weapon or carbine then a different answer may be valid .

[myronman3]

MYRONMAN3 , the M-14 cured the loading thing . In reality it is a simple task to load a M-1 as 100000's learned in the 40's !

yeah, now you are going to lecture me about military rifles.  please.     if loading wasnt a problem, why the switch?  again, you are all wet.   business as usual.   you have read so much and are so smart that you contradict yourself in your own post. 

and i dont attack anyone, just call it as it is with a little tact and intellect.  i dont expect you to understand.   i will say i think redhawk is more intellegent than you are; at least he paid more attention in school.   (man that hurt to say)  and i never said you had nothing to admit, i said you WONT admit it.  catchum? 
 
have fun blathering on.   

[SharonAnne]

quote Shootall  "I haven't a clue"  truer words were never spoken.

a few tid-bits from sources I am sure you trust:

Shotgun News, December 5/05   Peter G. Kokalis   article-THE M 14 REBORN, Crazy Horse.   "Off the bench, the Crazy Horse M14 generated 1.5 to 2 moa groups at 100 yards using match-grade ammunition"

Special Weapons for Military and Police, Gun Buyers Annual #34   Charles Cutshaw  article- Enhanced Battle Rifle .308 , Mark 14, Mod O EBR
accuracy, average of 2  5shot groups at 100 yds.  Black Hills 168 HPBT 2.25"
                                                                 Hornady TAP 155AMAX 2.13"
                                                                 Remington 168  HPBT   2.25"

Small Arms Review, January 2002   Peter G. Kokalis   article- Rock 'N Roll Recon Rifle.  "with the exception of a few armchair commandos still firing from bunkers in LaLa Land, no one champions the 7.62x51mm NATO battle rifle anymore (and certainly no one who ever really humped one of these brutes and their ammo loads in a real operational area and had a comparative experience with the M16 series)". 

I didn't put on a big search for these. Just a few magazines I had laying around. I have nothing current because I have not been out to a magazine rack in 14 months. IF an M14 could be made to outshoot an M16 then military rifle teams would use them. They don't. Case closed.
The M16 is more accurate.

bean field rifles have nothing to do with battle rifles. just as sniper calibers do not support the use of same in a battle rifle. apples and oranges, as usual

[teddy12b]

I found the answer you're all looking for!

Buy a DPMS 308.  I recently got one and I have the power of a 308 and the accuracy of an AR.  There are still +'s and -'s to it, but it's a good compromise between the two most common options.  Shoots great out of the box, but having much ammo isn't light.

[SharonAnne]

Teddy, a nice rifle, but you touch upon the main problem with 7.62x51mmNATO ammo, weight. I will give you this though, if I wanted a 7.62x51 rifle, the AR10 would be it. I do have a nice little .308W though, a Remington 600.   Have you seen the .300RSAUM version? Supposed to be able to hit at 1500 yd. Now THAT is a sniper round!

I will stick to my AR15 though. The error in the sandbox is trying to use a CQB carbine with a 14.5" barrel in place of the 20" barrel the rifle was designed to have. The velocity loss is too great. The 5.56mm Nato round has the same effective combat range as the 7.62x51mm Nato when each is used in the firearm they were designed for. For some reason the PTB are trying to make the M4 into something it is not and was never meant to be. That is bureaucrats for you.

The M4 is at best a 200 yd weapon. The M16 is expected to be used to 600 yd.  Past that the SDM uses a scoped M16A4 out to 800 yd. Farther than that and you need a sniper. Or crew served device. And yes, I am aware of the sporadic use of M14s. M21s they are not.

[SharonAnne]

Teddy, please do tell us of your new AR10. I apologize for not asking. What groups/ranges/ammo? What are you using for sights?

[SharonAnne]

to quote Shootall: #81 " the M-16... have not been accepted by those who are in the know"

                           #83  " I did not say all found it wanting, some did."

                            doubletalk

                            #83 " I will set your targets for ya since they will be 1/2 way to mine"

                            #154  " I never trashed the AR's accy"

       So, you WERE insulting me.