WHATS YOUR PICK FOR A BATTLE RIFLE?

[phalanx]

There is just something about an M14 ,I have my 91 ,but i still would pick the M14 any day.

[Mike Britton]

I really like the '03A3, but it's too slow and doesn't have enough capacity in today's world.  And It's not ambidextrous.

[Paladin]

wow, what a thread.  personally what ever was handy would work, have never liked the AR configuration. just never felt comfortable with them. but I would choose the weapon with what I intended to do with it.

P.S. I like them all when used for there intended use.

[SharonAnne]

"i would choose the weapon with what I intended to do with it"

I have no idea what that means.

[SHOOTALL]

PATTON in fact did use the M-1 in combat by the 1000's . as a commander you   use both human and material resources . He may or may not have fired a M-1 in combat himself but he did use them . It would seem that a commander that had started out in an army with bolt action rifles would in fact be the best judge of a self loading rifles contribution to the war effort . One only need look at the trend of all armies switching to self loading weapons then full auto to see the truth in Pattons assessment of the M-1

[phalanx]

Not that the M1 isn't a wonderful Rifle ,and it did help win that War.
But it was a good thing that we never came up against this in any real numbers .



Now days every Army in the world uses a light ,sub caliber FA rifle , most Combat is within 200 meters anyway.

[SHOOTALL]

It might be wise to consider that more are killed with weapons other than rifle , shotgun or handgun , IE; big guns etc. So how important is rifle choice ?
The M-1 did come up aginst the SKS which held more ammo. and was the forerunner of the AK . And the M-14 faced the AK in battle . in the war today the M-14 is making a small come back . The idea that the M-1 or M-14 can't hold its own is a waste of breath !
Face facts its all about cost ! AK's at one time were in the $ 40.00 dollar range and could be produced on crude tooling . What better to arm the masses .

[FLNT4EVR]

I'll stick with my Garand.

[phalanx]

Absolutely , no doubt that the M1 rifles are kings in that arena.  I saw a piece about the Israelis fighting hand to hand .
The M14 was used not only as a rifle ,but an  effective smashing device and well balanced for a Bayonet.  The LAR didn't fair as well here as the stocks broke off and other parts broke.
The AK is a Carbine of sorts , not a main battle rifle . In open ground the M14 was killing the enemy at 400 meters no problem .
Some special 12 inch bayonets were built for them also , but the man useing the rifle needed to know its limitations in close quarter combat and be trained to use it like that.

[teddy12b]

For any agruement that is made there is a completely ligitimate reason to argue against it.  This is the topic that will never end.

[phalanx]

teddy this is very true ,what works for me may not for someone else.
the main thing is to find a weapon that works for you ,learn to use it well ,and adapt to what ever situation you need to use it in.

[rem700-3]

I have enjoyed reading this    Its always humorous to hear the opinions on combat arms of those who have no knowledge of combat and little knowledge of arms.   The m-16 is a fine weapon and I have relied on it many times, most of the people I know that have relied on them in combat were glad to have them most of the people who I have heard trash talk from, come to find out never really needed a weapon in the first place. many of the weapons mentioned here are good weapons in their own right  bottom line my choice would be the one in my hand and firing and I'll make the best of it.  Hell if it were mostly close range fighting (150yds or less)and I were out numbered i would chose a 10/22 suppressed and good concealment

[S.S.]

I have been shot twice, stabbed one and had my shirt caught on fire by a close blast of a shoulder fired rocket of some sort so I think that would qualify as being in combat. I have absolutely no use for the M-16 type weapons for combat. The semi-auto versions that I am sure most of the folks in these forums use are totally different creatures as far as reliability is concerned. Big difference between trying to clean it while trying to squeeze your entire body behind the rim of a truck tire for cover and cleaning it on a bench.
Carrying a rifle at the ready during a tour of duty is not combat. Thats serving a tour of duty in a War zone.
I fully respect that tour also, but it is not combat. In all honesty though the Tour was sometimes worse
than the combat. Waiting and dreading what may happen takes its toll.

[SharonAnne]

this thread was not intended to be argumentative. The question was asked "What's YOUR pick for a battle rifle".   While you may not like what I pick it is hard to disagree that it IS my pick. It IS interesting to observe how some opinions have moderated as time and discussion goes on although I have not seen anyone change their pick based on this discussion. Stating your preference and supporting it is fine.  The thread was not supposed to be "my gun is great and yours sucks".

[rem700-3]

funny,  I never found the need to stop in the middle of a fire fight and clean my weapon.   I was usually to busy firing it 

[AtlLaw]

funny,  I never found the need to stop in the middle of a fire fight and clean my weapon.

+1

[S.S.]

Maybe my team got all the crappy ones. I dislike them. But as the lady said, it's what you choose, So if you like it, Good luck with your choice and enjoy it.

[rzwieg]

funny,  I never found the need to stop in the middle of a fire fight and clean my weapon.

+1

Good points.

My uncle said when the M1 he carried in Korea got muddy and froze in freezing weather, he and the others with would urinate into the action to get them going. This helped them bust up human wave charges.

"That p(urine) and powder would stink to get my eyes waterin' and nearly blind, but it worked."

Well that's hard to argue with.

[Chilachuck]

Big difference between trying to clean it while trying to squeeze your entire body behind the rim of a truck tire for cover and cleaning it on a bench.

I cannot speak from experience, but a weapon that needs to be cleaned more often is a weapon that is disabled more often.

I don't think that sounds so good.

[rem700-3]

I can honestly say that after alot of use I have never been in a situation, or saw anyone else in the situation where an m-16 failed in combat due to being dirty, unless the person who carried it was to lazy to clean it at the proper time.  I have been around several that have fired thousands of rounds without a problem in some pretty sever conditions.  Weapons issued to military personal have to be cleaned when turned back into the arms room (supply) and that is the only time some people bother to clean them.  I did not clean my m-16 any more than anyother weapon I was issued and got great service out of it.  I dont think its the best weapon for every situation as I sometimes would have prefered another weapon for certain situations, however as far as a standard weapon to issue a huge variance of people and expect good results you cant hardly beat a weapon from this family.   S.S.  what "team" do you speak of. Are you a coin holder? when did you serve.

[billy_56081]

Yes S.S. what makes the grass grow?

[phalanx]

The VZ 58 is becoming one very popular rifle , By no means an M14 ,but in close quarter combat it is the cats behind.
It isn't the M16 that bothers me ,its the 223 , a 7,62 X39 WOLF JHP  152gr gold will tear the crap out of anything it hits.
I own 3 AR type rifles , But the VZ is my weapon of choice if it ever came down to seeing the whites of their eyes.
Shotguns are fine weapons , but go read reports of Police officers engaging in a fire fight around 8ft steel fences.
When Russia invaded Georgia, reports about the VZ 58 being more accurate in over 100 meter shots made the Russians wake up a little.
This rifle by all means is no AK.

[Chilachuck]

The VZ 58 is becoming one very popular rifle , By no means an M14 ,but in close

Hmmm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa_vz._58

http://www.cz-usa.com/news_events.php

MSRP  $950/+ ? Gleep.

On the other hand, a pocket full of money does not block very many bullets.

Too bad it doesn't use the AK mags. If I got one, I'd have to spray paint one or another set to keep from mixing them.

[ironglow]

  Having served some time ago, I used the M1 and the M14...of the two, my preference would be with the M14.slightly less power than the M1 but still plenty for the job..magazine fed (not the clip as in the M1), still great heft for bayonet (IMO) an improvement of the M1.
      For newer weapons, I defer to the best current source I can find; my grandson, Marine platoon sgt with 2 deployments to Al Anbar;
  one as spec ops in 2005 the other, except for one or two "all volunteer" missions, worked most of the time at his regular MOS of armorer.
  In both tours he had daily contact with all that is available on that battlefield..and has enough familiarity with all small arms so that
  Aberdeen Proving Grounds is interested in him coming there to teach in their (interservice) small arms school.
       When I asked for his opinion, here's what I got !
      Yes, when operating with a "maintenance neglected" rifle, the AK series is slightly less likely to jam; this being because of the
  sloppy tolerances in the AK rifles. Given sensible maintenance, the M16 is fully as dependable. When I asked him which he would rather
   use in combat (note:he spent months in heavy combat Ramadi/Fallujah area) he said; "Gramp, I would rather have one M16 than 3 AKs"
  The M16 series is much more accurate, has greater range and infinitely more special use attachments and accessories than the AKs.
    The smaller round means that for open area combat, a troop can carry twice as many rounds on those long range hikes. For open
  country, the M16 will reach out and touch the enemy farther away..and either M16 or AK round in the head or torso will put a man
   essentially out of action.
  
   So why do the various terrorist outfits use AKs?  They are VERY CHEAP and easy to acquire and likely to be neglected.
  
    Being one of his unit's two designated snipers (+armorer) he built his own rifle for the purpose. With no bolt action 7.62s available to
  him, he selected .223 components and had good success, even one-on-one with haji.
      For the door to door stuff, he favors the M4 or the Mossy 500..the hardball 9mm not being a real "stopper". The M249 SAW is
  very effective, but a bit long and unwieldy for confined areas.

    There are interesting weapons on the way such as the H&K rifle..and the Marines wil get back their .45 in something like the Kimber Warrior....
        ...but until then I must conclude that for those that can afford it,the M16 series is just about top dog.

  Below, see USMC photo of my grandson engaging the enemy across the Euphrates.

[phalanx]

It seems some of our guys like it as a back up.




There is nothing wrong with an M4 ,and the heavier 223 bullets do work fine.
But once you shoot one of these you will hardly look at an AK ever again.

And a coat of H&K Dura coat works fine on them.

[ironglow]

  Don't know about those pics, but I have some like that showing my grandson & his friends with various enemy rifles. In that case
  they were just displaying firefight captures..
 
    Your Pic #1 looks like a range test, with the berm , pipeline and parked convoy in the background.
    #2 looks like a return to FOB from patrol..looks like a dumpster in the background..just guessing..

  I guess the VZ is the same basic design as the AK series isn't it ?  Surely though, being Czech made kit will likely
  come off much better in execution..judging by my CZ .22 LR


  Some folks are still telling tales of the jams that happened in Vietnam..not really the rifle's design fault One problem was the Army's insistence
  on using ball powder, when Stoner distinctly told them to use IMR flake powder..pressure differences sometimes caused jams.
  Thje other main problem was MacNamara ..secy of defense at the time. Being an industrial "bean-counter", he figured to save a couple bucks
   on each AR15 by not chrome plating the chamber & bore as Stoner told him. A little rust and/or corrosion..and jams start. These problems
   however, have been solved decades ago.

[Mike Britton]

The military wouldn't listen to Stoner, they wouldn't listen to Browning. They always have a better idea.

[Chilachuck]

...unless the person who carried it was to lazy to clean it at the proper time. 

The battle rifle used is going to be what the Sargent says to use for war, if part of a regular Military. My basic assumptions are a militia unit under conditions of social break down.

What's "the proper time" for cleaning? Doesn't that assume you will have a secure area to sit in while you have disabled your rifle in order to clean it? That's where my unease comes from. Oh, it's great if your unit has the discipline to work together instead of being a pack of macho, wannabe wolves, and they take turn about cleaning, sleeping, and standing guard. I'd much rather be the FNG with veterans than the veteran saddled with a wolf pack.

Also, the ammo depends on either a large stash or supply from "On High". From what I hear of the Army, they need to have ammo moved to the front lines by the forklift load because of the unaimed suppressive fire doctrine. (The Marines, being somewhat smarter, if not quite smart enough for the Navy, actually aim and run through less ammo.) Fight the way you train, and the Army trains to be wasteful. Not good in times of social breakdown.

Reloading? I don't know if Herco will work in .223, but it darn sure won't work in a direct impingement gas action. How many other reloading powders are as dirty?

I have an AR, semi AK, and an SKS. The AK and SKS have fewer places powder residue can build up, and the parts involved are larger (easier to find if they are dropped). I'd want to change the two Russian rifles so the gas tubes were easier and faster to pull and clean, if I was redesigning them, or if a mod came out.

The usual AK found in the battlefield, if mine is any example, is simply not made to the standards of any other fighting rifle. It's a self loading zip gun. I've heard that some US made semi auto AK's are pretty darn good (and expensive, comparable in price to an M1A), so I figure comparisons of the two designs should be between equal quality samples, if we're talking /design/. If we are talking "what's available", well, there's a point.

Now, from what I hear, there's a few AR design rifles and some M1A imports that are poorly made. So just the design alone is not enough.

[teddy12b]

Just an observation, but in the second picture I'm not sure those are U.S. troops.  The camo pattern is different, they could be either Brits or Australians, I'm leaning towards Brits.

ironglow,
     For what it's worth.  I think most people are referencing the M16 jamming in today's wars, not just Vietnam.  While I was overseas we didn't have any CLP.  I know it's hard to believe, but we didn't have any oil for our rifles unless it came from a vehicle.  One day during a test fire I cleaned my weapon with dental picks until the inside was spotless.  It hadn't been fired since it's last cleaning so there wasn't anything built up anyway.  After the cleaning I got up and walked 50 feet with a mild amount of sand blowing in the air.  My rifle was clean and bone dry, and it jammed on burst.  I'm sure it would have been fine with some oil, but even with oil the M16 will still jam more than it should.

Chilachuck,
     I'm not sure if I took it wrong way or if you're trying to insult the different branches of the service & everyone who's ever been in it, but the Army trained me for "One shot, One kill".  We had that grinded into our heads in basic and overseas ammo was treated like gold and not to be wasted.  Standard combat loads are 210 rounds per M16 and they do need equipment to haul all the ammo up front.  I know this because I've been on supply convoys.  To think that everyone makes well aimed shots during a firefight is ridiculous, and there is something to be said for suppressive fire when covering a buddies movement.

People are always going to be looking for the "perfect" weapon and this discussion will never end as long as people continue to shoot at each other. 

[buffermop]

AMEN to that last statement teddy 12b. I think I GB ought to lock this one up.