Author Topic: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?  (Read 2679 times)

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Offline Questor

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Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« on: November 19, 2007, 04:38:35 AM »
I guess I've never asked it so directly, but why would anyone such as concealed carry holder or a home defense user care to use a 1911?  It seems like the newer style double action Glock-style guns would be a better choice because it's designed to be carried without worrying about whether it's cocked and locked.

I still see this newer style auto and the revolver as being the better choice for the personal defense user.

The 1911 seems like it would be fine for non-concealed carry holstered use. But seems too complicated for personal defense.

Remember, I don't care about "special ops" or other specialized cops or soldiers. I am only asking about applicability to concealed carry and home defense users.

My gun of choice would be a revolver for these applications. That is because of simplicity and safety of the design.  And it would be 38 special with a modern defense bullet.
Safety first

Offline Heavy C

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2007, 11:51:54 AM »
Good question.  IMO, it boils down to personal preference.  I choose to use the 1911 as a home defense weapon and my carry weapon because it is a proven platform.  I practice enough with it that its operation is almost second nature.  The 45 ACP is also a great self defense round.  The cocked and locked issue is moot.  If you put in the time learning a practicing with your weapon of choice; then you've established a level of knowledge about said weapon that mitigate those concerns.

I know that for some it is easier to put rounds on any given target with a revolver, and there are those that do better with an auto.  For me the 1911 fits my hand really well, and I like the option of having a few more rounds if the need arises.  Every once in a while I will carry a revolver, but guess what?  It's in 45 ACP too!

Offline Savage

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2007, 01:09:47 PM »
Well,---------it's reliable, powerful, accurate, safe, and is thin enough to carry well. I think that about says it all.
Savage
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Offline Paul S

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2007, 01:22:02 PM »
This may sound dumb, but in my case of all the handguns I have or even guns I have shot that belonged to others my 1911 style Kimber Royal just feels like and extension of my hand. When I bring it up it just seems to naturally go to where I'm looking better than any other style of handgun. With that being said , not every 1911 feels a natural to me as my own that I shoot all the time. I would agree that there are guns much easier to conceal. In the summer I carry a S&W 3913. It fits my waistline much better but the 1911 sure feels better in my hand. In my case I guess I just have more confidence in my shooting with the 1911 platform. Call me weird.
Paul

Offline KN

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2007, 02:10:48 PM »
I have yet to find a double action only style pistol I can shoot well. For me it's my Kimber RCP that tags along.    KN

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2007, 12:17:54 AM »
If we all fell in love with the same woman it would be a heck of a fight.
I carry each type--well, a couple of Sig's which are not Glocks, and an old PPK--on different occasions.
I agree that the 1911 in it's many variations conceals better that the Sig's.
The operation of one over the other is minute--if you take the time too learn it and learn to handle it.
By all means know what you have and be proficient with it.
Blessings
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Offline S.B.

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2007, 12:33:34 AM »
Through countless combat encounters, the U.S. solders have found it stops close quarters fights very well. The .45 club wasn't formed because this caliber is a choice, but, because most solders lived through these battles. So, those that pick some thing else or a smaller caliber, are kidding themselves. All the gun writers and combat wana bees advise comes from the writen word, not actual experience?
Ask any vetern(that has seen the elephant and lived) if they would rather have a 9MM or .45?
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2007, 01:19:36 AM »
Why?  Because it works.  Mikey.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2007, 12:27:25 PM »
Yes, Mikey, I agree.
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Offline Dusty Miller

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2007, 12:49:30 PM »
From my point of view, anybody who finds the 1911 to "complicated" perhaps should not be trying to carry ANY gun at all!!
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Dee

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2007, 01:56:57 PM »
Through countless combat encounters, the U.S. solders have found it stops close quarters fights very well. The .45 club wasn't formed because this caliber is a choice, but, because most solders lived through these battles. So, those that pick some thing else or a smaller caliber, are kidding themselves. All the gun writers and combat wana bees advise comes from the writen word, not actual experience?
Ask any vetern(that has seen the elephant and lived) if they would rather have a 9MM or .45?

Your point is well taken sir. I am retired now, but in 1978 a couple of gentlemen from Dallas Texas, driving a stolen 1978 Buick Regal tired to end my earthly journey. A customized light weight Commander that I had personally built, and myself and the Colt, outnumbered them in a decisive manner. I fired five shots, in a time span of 2 to 3 seconds, and it was over. The winner of the fight should be obviouse to all. My carry since 1976 has, and is a 1911, stoked with 200 grain jacketed FLAT POINT bullets. No hollow points for me sir. These work just fine. Jeff Cooper would agree on this round, and also carried it. It works.
The sear "lock time" is the fastest in the business, and an 18 lb. spring reduces felt recoil, or should I say, the cycle of the slide, i.e. muzzle flip. It is truly a fight winner, if one can keep his head when the fight starts.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2007, 01:30:09 AM »
because id take a gun to a gunfight and tuperware to a dinner party!
blue lives matter

Offline Dusty Miller

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2007, 12:36:02 PM »
I like the flat points also.  I'm wonder'n if there's any field data to back up our convictions.
When seconds mean life or death, the police are only minutes away!

Offline Josh M.

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2007, 01:57:16 PM »
My flat points are 230 gr, but we're singin' in the same choir.  - JM.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2007, 04:15:48 PM »
Dusty:  I'm certain there is some information from police files regarding the effectiveness of the 45 ACP in police shootings and there may even be information regarding the particular style of bullets involved, which might give you some sort of a lead in as to whether flat points are more effective.

However, a good parallel would be to look at the 38 Spl and the differences in effectiveness between the 158 gn round nose slugs and the 158 gn semi-wadcutters.  I can't quote you percentages but the semi-wadcutter slug was much more effective and many departments went to is use. 

I think the only thing you could do to enhance the effectiveness of the 45 round ball is to make it a semi-wadcutter.  JMTCW. Mikey. 

Offline Jack Ryan

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2007, 10:11:16 PM »
Big bullets = big holes.

Nobody likes to have big hole in them.

9/10 bad guys all agree they would rather have small holes in them than big ones.

Offline drdougrx

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2007, 03:55:07 AM »
For me it's preference,

I like the old platforms like the 1911 and the HP (of which I have both the 9 and 40).  I also have a SW3913 which I use as well as a PPK/S, and either of which to carry under a suit.  I also use a Colt Mustang Pocket lite for really small carry.  I like the caliber but can easily live with a 40.  I had a detonics MK VI but it was unreliable.  so, I like the 1911 because I can get my hands around it, it points naturally for me and has a caliber that I feel will be decisive. 

Oh yeah...and then there's that smile I get when I look at a 1911 that I don't get when I look at a block, er, glock.
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Offline demented

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2007, 05:46:14 PM »
If all of my possible self defense scenarios were going to be face to face or even out to ten yards, I'd as soon use a revolver or just about any reliable semi-auto as a 1911.  Since there is no way to guarantee point blank encounters, I choose to own and carry 1911's as no other handgun design allows me to place that first shot on target at even extended ranges as the single action does.

Offline benjaminw7528

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2007, 07:23:48 PM »
 for me it's the trigger pull and I know you can cock a revolver and get the same pull but that's one shot with a 1911 it's 7 or 8

Offline Brock Samson

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 03:09:00 PM »
Your points about the ease of use and safety systems are well taken, for folks who aren't "into" guns, as WE all obviously are.  If I'm teaching somebody to shoot, or offering advice to somebody I know is only going to shoot once or twice a year, I steer them to the simplest piece of hardware that's suitable for their power needs and ability.  Although the Glocks, Springfield XD's, etc., offer a great combination of ease and firepower, I find that a lot of folks still like the ability to open a cylinder, see the cartridges (or empty chambers), and feel comforted.  Most of them also express confidence in being able to remember how to load and unload the weapon after they've left the training. 

On the downside, revolvers are a little less friendly for use with a flashlight, and the rattling of rounds in the cylinder can give away your position under stress. 

Personally, I view it like a toolbox.  I take whatever I think I'll need.  From snubbie revolvers, to full-sized Berettas, I've carried about every combination, and in the end, it's about what you're comfortable with, and can hit the target with.  The only time I've regretted my choice was when I had to blast a huge attacking dog with a .380.  Even with silver glazers, and solid chest hits, he didn't go down immediately.  He did turn and bolt away to die, but under those circumstances, you'd really like to see an immediate impact! 




Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2007, 01:24:42 AM »
Brock--
your points are well taken.
I have a concern with most that would not take the time necessary too become proficient with any fire arm---seems like a costly accident waiting for a spark.
A revolver is, certainly, the easiest to learn on.
The question does not seem too turn on this thought however.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline S.B.

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2007, 02:38:01 AM »
On the downside, revolvers are a little less friendly for use with a flashlight, and the rattling of rounds in the cylinder can give away your position under stress. 


I have been shooting revolvers for more than 40 years and have never heard this???? What make of revolver are you using that you hear rattling inside the cylinder? Sounds like a lot of play, there. Too much play.
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Offline Dee

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2007, 01:33:17 PM »
S.B. it beats me. I won a fight with a model 28, in 1977 and the rattlin of cartridges in the cylinder were not an issue. On June 19, 1978, I went against two, and this time with a light weight Commander.  Hitting what I shot at certainly was the crux of both. There are all kinds of theories out there, but the truth is I carried a Model 19 also(owned several and wore two out shooting exhibition) and felt very well armed and was. When I started instructing city police and county officers in 1976 almost everyone still carried revolvers, and the types of issues mentioned as far as inferiority in a tactical situation were and I suspect still are unheard of.
I have a friend I play music with that used to be my captain, and later chief. He once shot it out across the hood of a patrol car with a black panther (not the 4 legged kind), and won BIG TIME. That's about as close range as you can get without holding hands. He was shooting a model 28, and the panther was shooting a 1911. In 1979 a guy armed with a shotgun got off the first shot, and Jim got HIM with his first shot. Jim was carrying a Model 19 this time. It ain't the gun, it's the grit, and you either have it or you don't have it.
Philosophy don't work in a gun fight. A clear head and a good eye, along with plenty of nerve, is what wins. Knowing your weapon is paramount but a good smith in the right hands is as good as an automatic. If your still shootin after 4 rounds you philosophy AIN'T WORKIN, and you might start looking for the door.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline S.B.

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2007, 01:51:11 PM »
Don't know what you refering to about having it or not having it but, training is key to winning any kind of a fight? I'm sure with your experience shooting people, you have a differnet opinion.
I don't disagree with you about .357 mags and the Detroit cop(Evan Marshall) writer back in the 1970s and '80s made his point that a 125 grain bullet out of a .357 magnum stops fights quicker than any thing at the time that was written. The original post asked about concealment carry and home diefence and I stand my choice. .45 ACP!
I actually own and shoot both revolvers and semi autos but, have more experience with 1911s and personally like the .45 ACP round.
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Offline Dee

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2007, 02:11:19 PM »
I couldn't agree with you more on the 1911. I have been building them since 1980, and prefer them. I was referring to such things rattling rounds in the chambers and flashlights. If one is schooled the revolver and the flashlight works just fine, if properly tuned.
My experience "shooting folks" is limited, as is my friend's  that I mentioned also. There just aren't that many volunteers. And yes, training is paramount. As for Mr. Marshall's "discovery" I suspect he "discovered" the 125 grain hollow points lethality from a 357 magnum, from the publication to law enforcement agencies (annually) from the FBI shoot statistics involving police officers nation wide. This round is STILL the best one shot stopper, and no the 357sig is not included for it's share of the glory.
I was actually defending your revolvers. It is as good as ANY auto, if properly used.
You may all go to hell, I will go to Texas. Davy Crockett

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2007, 10:34:13 PM »
I don't care for double stacked guns, seems clumsy in the hand----for me---and the Sigs feel better, though they are a bit wider. I still find them less clumsy than double stacks.
The 1911 is a more natural feel---for me.
I do like the DA in the night.
In the light I like the feel of the 1911.
Not much of a wheel gun kind--though they do have their proponents--they are about as clumsy too the feel, for me.
Boys---blonds or red heads??
I dunno---at my age, most of em have hair of many different colors so, who knows which is real ??
Blessings
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2007, 02:14:20 AM »
I believe it was Elmer Keith who once said that a clear head and a steady hand beat simple quickness every time (or something to that effect).  Mikey.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2007, 02:39:00 AM »
As for Mr. Marshall's "discovery" I suspect he "discovered" the 125 grain hollow points lethality from a 357 magnum, from the publication to law enforcement agencies (annually) from the FBI shoot statistics involving police officers nation wide.

I think Marshal and one other detective (Ed Sanow?) from Detroit started a data base and kept track of all LE shooting during this time?
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Offline Brock Samson

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2007, 06:17:06 PM »
Actually, rattling ammo is usually only a factor to the shooter, but when you really want to be silent and invisible, it can affect your confidence and comfort level.  I experienced it this way. 

During a search warrant for a fellow who'd killed two people in a drug deal gone bad, my partner and I were going room to room through a darkened house.  (Daylight, but the owners were default on the electricity, so only dim light through curtained windows.) Tension was high, because when we crept to the doorway, the killer's sister said, "No, he's not asleep, like I said he'd be; he saw you coming, and he's hiding somewhere in here."  (I voted to back out and call "Tac" [tactical team, for barricaded suspects] but the detectives who wanted us for "uniforms" [bullet-catchers] to run the warrant insisted on going ahead, and I was only a rookie on my last day of training, so we went ahead.)  When we went into the second room, a semi-naked female jumped out of the bed, acting surprised.  Acting seemed to be the key word, so I took my flashlight (I was a rookie, so was always prepared; I had the only flashlight in the house) and knelt to look beneath the bed.  Holding my 4 inch S&W 41 mag close to my body, I lifted the dangling bedcovers with the flashlight hand.  And there was a face!  Inches away, staring right back at me!  Adrenaline surged, I grabbed him by the hair, drug him out, and we threw him around and cuffed him.  The sister runs in, begging us to not hurt him, and says, "Oh, what are you doing?  That's not him!  He's still in here!"

"What??  You mean we gotta do this again?"  I thought...   With the "under-bed" guy (also a wanted felon) under control, we continued down the hall, me in the lead.  My senses were on maximum power, just like a woodland stalk.  I heard an unusual sound, that I hadn't heard before.  I stopped where I was, crouched, and did a slow scan, trying to find the sound.  It was in front of me.  It was my gun.  My adrenaline had me gripping the gun so tightly that the rounds were rattling in the chambers.  I'll grant you (now) that I was probably the only guy at the time who heard it.  But the fact is, I wanted to be making ZERO sound at that time!  Like a hunter with game in sight, I thought; "Surely he can hear my heartbeat!"  Combined with stress caused by a retarded detective who kept racking rounds into (and out of!!!) his shotgun "for effect", which scared the crap out of me each time he did it, the noise from my revolver made me a little bit less confident about my "stealth", which was the only advantage in this situation where a man on his own turf was expecting people to come and take away his freedom, and possibly his life.  (Texas is a REAL death penalty state!) 

When "facing the elephant", you need all the confidence you can get.  I want power, reliability, ease of use, and stealth.  Maybe stealth is a small part of the equation for some, but it's a REAL part, so I list it as a factor.  Maybe nobody else who's been in harm's way has been afraid, but I have, and I'll make allowances for that fear, and try to minimize it's effect.  If a homeowner picks up a firearm to stalk a potential threat (without backup, or ballistic vests), I think they'll be feeling the same degree of nerves (possibly even more?) that I did as a rookie policeman.

The Smith was an okay gun.  I don't know about clearances, or quality.  It was made in the mid 1980's.  After I'd put about 2,000 rounds through it, the hammer stud broke, and it had to be sent to the factory for repairs.  Of the 38 Smiths issued to my academy class, 29 needed some type of work, and 19 were deemed unsafe for use without serious re-work, so I'm guessing this was not a great period for Smith and Wesson's quality control.  I was a Ruger and Dan Wesson fan, so I didn't care for the Smith, but Dallas allowed us to carry a Smith or Colt, .38 or larger, and I was a big .41 fan, from silhouette shooting.  The Department issued Model 64's (heavy barreled, fixed-sight stainless .38's), and I upgraded to a Model 657 at the first opportunity. 

(Incidentally, I found the guy hiding in a shower stall at the far end of the house, after the detectives had given up, declaring; "Screw it, let's leave; he's not here!"  He surrendered without a fight.)

My comment about the flashlight also comes from this gun.  I had a Mag-light go out when I fired it in that "back-of-hand to back-of-hand" style that is sometimes taught.  I attributed that to the blast coming out from between the cylinder and forcing cone.  I never had that happen with a Streamlight, but then, I was always conscious to keep the "head" of the flashlight as close to my left fist as possible when shooting with it.  Frankly, I think the Ayoob flashlight method is superior. 

I think there were some good comments on here, and something for homeowners to learn from.  The comment about "having it" really has merit, as do the comments on training.  By training, you can get closer and closer to "having it", but until you experience it, you won't really know.  After you experience it, you'll know, and you'll be truly confident, not simply full of bravado.  Those who are hunters will understand, and can take confidence and comfort from that. 

Every firearm can win a gunfight, if only the shooter can.

Offline Mikey

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Re: Why the 1911 as a personal defense gun?
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2007, 12:37:12 AM »
Geez, the only thing that ever rattled on me was my teeth, or was it my knees.  After that, things just seem to go into slow motion (and the rattle becomes a 'clank').

And as far as facing the elephant is concerned - never looked one right in the face while I was over there although I had one take peanuts from my hand from over my shoulder; but we had one at a camp in 2 Corps, early on, and a general named Westmoreland asked why we didn't use them to carry equipment like the VC did - one shot from a 38 snubby sent that elephant on such a fright that he cleared the wire (ran through it), the minefields and the 'yellow fields'  and didn't come back for almost 3 weeks. 

The other elephant was really the backside of a big bull - wasn't facing at all.  A couple of us working for 46th Company took bikes into the interior once and came upon an elephant train waking down the road.  I was in the lead and saw this one bull step sideways into the road to lift his tail - the guy behind me didn't see him until too late.  The elephant finally 'expelled' the guy's head from its butt about 15 yds down the road but the fella had two broken collar bones and a fractured skull (must have been some hard s__t is all I can tellya) and finally got sent home. 

Water Buffalo are an entirely different story......................... Mikey.