.243 for deer

[303Guy]

When I was just starting hunting a man I respect very much said  "Pick your shot, don't be in a hurry and show the animal you are hunting a little respect when you harvest it".

Choosing your shot and the when and where you take it has served me well no matter what I was hunting.

wtxbadger

Now THAT  is a statement I can relate to!

[303Guy]

Intellectually I KNOW the .243 is adequate........
Why did it get over 1/4 mile from where I shot it IF that was it? I've got no clue. But even tho intellectually I know the .243 is adequate I sold that rifle one of the most accurate I've ever owned cuz I just can't make myself use a .243 again after that incident. The bad thing is I don't even know why or how it happened. I may have just plain flubbed the shot. I personally can't trust the .243 and I wish I could as my shoulder really needs the .243 these days but my .260 will have to do.

Such an incident would haunt any good man who respects his quarry!  I have one or two of my own.  I hate to say it but I did once do a gut shot.  I got my antelope but found it hard to forgive myself.  (I did figure out what I did wrong).  Then I jaw shot a hare - I got that too, but it haunted me for years.  Those two incidents have made me very wary of my shot placement and, thankfully, I have been able to make clean kills since.

[Coyote Hunter]

I don't understand why people keep questioning the effectiveness of a .243 on deer size game.

With PROPER PLACEMENT a .243 will flatten a deer plain and simple.
Anyone who thinks it won't is just plain wrong.
Spanky

So will a .22LR.

There is a big difference in deer sizes.  I've seen enough .243 Win failures on cow elk that I wouldn't choose a .243 Win for big mulies unless it was all that was available, and then I would use a good bullet (Partition or better).

What exactly do you mean by "failures"??

Are you saying that a cow elk was shot in the vitals with a .243 and did not die??
I seriously doubt that as I have seen bull moose taken with a shot in the vitals from a .243 while hunting in Quebec.

And no, I am not recommending hunting moose with a .243 so don't think that. I have a Ruger bolt action chambered in .35 Whelen for moose and such.

I stand by what I said, a .243 with a WELL PLACED shot will flatten any deer. (even moose)
All the naysayers and doubters aside, the facts are the facts.

Spanky

Spanky –

What I’m saying is that a “WELL PLACED shot” with a .22LR will take deer and even larger game cleanly.  I doubt there is an elk I’ve taken that I could not have taken with my .22-250 and a varmint bullet to the neck.  A .243 Win should certainly be able to perform as well.

That said, .22’s are not legal for big game in Colorado (I wouldn’t use them if they were) and I’ve seen more problems with elk and the .243 Win than any other cartridge – and perhaps more than all other cartridges combined.  Whether the problem is the shooter, the bullet or placement I can’t say, although in a couple cases bullet impact was observed and placement was not the issue. 

And yes, in one particular case a cow elk was shot in the vitals with a .243 and did not die, at least not where any of the 20 or so people watching could see - it trotted off with the herd, through open sage, and disappeared over a hill in the distance. The shot was from about 60 yards, full broadside, off a rest, and several people saw the impact and agreed on its placement. 

Thanks, but I’ll choose something with a larger diameter and a heavier bullet.  Even for mulies. 

[Spanky]

OK

And thanks for letting me know.


Spanky 

[303Guy]

!

..... cow elk was shot in the vitals with a .243 and did not die, at least not where any of the 20 or so people watching could see .....

It's a pity the elk was not recovered for forensic examination (apart from the loss of an animal).  Maybe the .243 impact velocity is just too high for larger game (or at least, in this case).  Coyote Hunter, your input is appreciated and will certainly be considered when choosing my next rifle!

[deltecs]

Bashing the .243 Win because of poor shot placement and saying it is too light for deer size game is utterly ridiculous.  Yes, a slightly  larger bore MIGHT have made a difference but there isn't any evidence that it will.  The biggest reason I've found for game not cleanly killed with the .243 Win is improper bullet selection for the game.  It is one thing to reload for 100 Nosler Partitions and another to buy 87 gr solids and attempt to use them on deer size game.  I've never seen any difference in killing between the .243 Win, 257 Roberts, 260 Rem, or 6.5x 55, if and I specify if, the bullets used in all of them are good quality and have a sectional density of around .250.  An animal hit in a vital zone will expire just as readily with the .243 as with any of the others, and leave a wound path just as damaging.  An animal NOT hit in a vital zone with any of them will run off and may not die for quite some time if at all.  All bets are off when one compares the other rounds with heavier bullets with higher sectional densities than those used in the .243 Win.  Not that the animal hit in a vital area will expire faster, but use of the others permits effective use on heavier game than deer or caribou.  I'd like to see all who criticize the .243 Win as not big enough for deer size game to relate their experiences with actual facts on bullet placement, range, wind conditions, and actual bullet used.  Anyone who honestly evaluates the .243 Win for deer size game using appropriate bullets will not have any real objections to its use.

[DakotaElkSlayer]

...ok.  It was three years ago when I lived in ND when a woman was hunting with us, using a .243.  We spotted a doe at around 125yds so she took a rest and shot.  Upon the shot, the deer took off over the hill and out of sight.  About 45minutes later, we spotted the doe again, but this time, it was dispatched with a .30-06.  To our amazement, it was hit by the .243.  And, no it was a GREAT shot!  She hit the lungs dead center, but the factory Remington load never opened and only produced a small hole through the lungs...they never collapsed.  Except for the hole, they looked perfectly healthy.
  A year before this, my boss at NWA bought a .243 Tikka.  That Fall, he lost two deer with the .243 and quickly sold the rifle.  Wasn't there so I didn't see the point of impact, but these were the first two deer he had lost in around 15 years of rifle deer hunting.  This guy was a HUNTER, so I know he was using the proper bullets.
  Hey, if the .243 works for you on deer, GREAT!!!  I won't use one, but that is because I like .257 and .264 for deer.  I would use a .243 for deer before using a 300Mag any day of the week.

Jim

[rickt300]

Sounds like they should have been shooting Ballistic Tips.

[ccoker]

my 10 year old son shot his 2nd deer this past weekend
hit a doe at about 90 yards, right behind the shoulder with an 80g Fed SP factory load, deer ran about 30 yards and collapsed

[Todd1700]

I've never kept a running count on the number of deer I've killed in my lifetime or how many with each gun or caliber. But it's safe to say that I killed a bunch in my younger years with a 243. Never lost a deer I hit with 243. I took a S&W bolt action in 243 out on a hunt 4 years ago and killed one of the biggest bucks of my life. Weighed 220 lbs and had a huge 7 point rack. I'd love to show you the 100 gr core-lock bullet that killed him but it didn't stop inside him. I have never seen any evidence that a 243 was unsuitable for deer. In fact a 243 has more foot pounds of energy at any range than a 30-30 or a 257 Roberts. It also shoots flatter than either of them. Yet I never hear anyone bash those two calibers as inadequate for deer.

I think the 243 gets a bad rep for several reasons. First, it is very often given to a child or a woman as their first rifle. Being youngsters or beginners in the sport they tend to shoot a little poorer than older more experienced hunters. Lost deer are often the result yet the caliber is often blamed. Second the 243 is a duel purpose caliber used for both deer and varmints. That being the case there is ammo out there that is intended for use only on varmints, but invariably ends up being used on deer. Horror stories often ensue and again the caliber gets the blame rather than the poor choice of ammo.

For all those claiming good hits on deer in which a 243 just mysteriously didn't kill the animal, I offer the following bet. We will purchase 50 head of deer from some game farm and place them in a pen. I will get up on the fence with my 243 and 3 or 4 boxes of 100 gr core-locks. I will then systematically start shooting each deer through the lungs once with my 243. For each one that dies from this single 243 inflicted lung shot you guys give me 1000 dollars. For each that survives it I will give yall 5000 dollars. All meat will be donated to some feed the hungry foundation. Deal?

[saltydog]

It depends on the bullet chosen and the type of deer being hunted. A whitetail in mid TX can be under 100 lbs while a mulie in MT can be several hundred pounds. Matching the bullet to the type and size of game is an important as the exact caliber chosen. The 243 within reasonable ranges will have the energy to kill deer of all sizes if the shot is well placed.

[Mac11700]

I've never kept a running count on the number of deer I've killed in my lifetime or how many with each gun or caliber. But it's safe to say that I killed a bunch in my younger years with a 243. Never lost a deer I hit with 243. I took a S&W bolt action in 243 out on a hunt 4 years ago and killed one of the biggest bucks of my life. Weighed 220 lbs and had a huge 7 point rack. I'd love to show you the 100 gr core-lock bullet that killed him but it didn't stop inside him. I have never seen any evidence that a 243 was unsuitable for deer. In fact a 243 has more foot pounds of energy at any range than a 30-30 or a 257 Roberts. It also shoots flatter than either of them. Yet I never hear anyone bash those two calibers as inadequate for deer.

I think the 243 gets a bad rep for several reasons. First, it is very often given to a child or a woman as their first rifle. Being youngsters or beginners in the sport they tend to shoot a little poorer than older more experienced hunters. Lost deer are often the result yet the caliber is often blamed. Second the 243 is a duel purpose caliber used for both deer and varmints. That being the case there is ammo out there that is intended for use only on varmints, but invariably ends up being used on deer. Horror stories often ensue and again the caliber gets the blame rather than the poor choice of ammo.

For all those claiming good hits on deer in which a 243 just mysteriously didn't kill the animal, I offer the following bet. We will purchase 50 head of deer from some game farm and place them in a pen. I will get up on the fence with my 243 and 3 or 4 boxes of 100 gr core-locks. I will then systematically start shooting each deer through the lungs once with my 243. For each one that dies from this single 243 inflicted lung shot you guys give me 1000 dollars. For each that survives it I will give yall 5000 dollars. All meat will be donated to some feed the hungry foundation. Deal?

I wouldn't take that bet if my life depended on it

Second the 243 is a duel purpose caliber used for both deer and varmints. That being the case there is ammo out there that is intended for use only on varmints, but invariably ends up being used on deer.

I'll make you another bet as well...concerning some of the failures...but...this one dealing with those who only shoot factory ammo bought off a shelf...I would bet...that some of these failures have been caused by some unscrupulous person that has switched some of the ammo out from another box of it...The folks at my local gun shop told me I would not believe how many times they have seen this in the past few years...It has gotten to the point of many dealers putting the ammo behind the counters around here...or using nylon re enforced tape on the boxes...Many folks just assume they have the correct ammo in the factory box...and it can be down right dangerous if not checked... I got hold of a box of 243 like that a couple months ago before deer season...it was supposed to be a box of Federal loaded with 100 grain Nosler Partitions and it was a mixed box with ballistic tips in it...and a couple 308 Winchester loads...Needless to say...I open all of the boxes now before leaving the store...

Mac

[303Guy]

".... Horror stories often ensue and again the caliber gets the blame rather than the poor choice of ammo... "
.........Many folks just assume they have the correct ammo in the factory box.......

 
You raise a very good point, Mac.

[Brithunter]

  you have some really weird folks there! I had never even thought of such a thing. Perhaps having ammo locked away like they have to here in the UK has it's bonuses after all 

[351 power]

funny story about .243. awhile back i got a magazine with a story about 6mm cartridges fading out of favour. buddy stated deer and other game killed out to 300+ yds. but he no longer felt it was adequate for long shots that were more frequent now. so the 100g at 2950fps never changed. he just couldn't get close enough[getting old i guess]. maybe he lost his nerve
now another writer brags up the .250 savage /.257 roberts 100g at 2950fps as great deer killers. even i can see that .014" dia. can't make that much difference. i think they should be able to agree in their wisdom but no. i think it's about selling new guns with discontent.
and what's all these sleepless nights about losing a deer? yes you do your best to be ethical in the harvest but come on. still "haunted" about a bad shot? man, most of you were not going to lose any sleep shooting an intruder on the other thread. get some perspective please

[Mac11700]

you have some really weird folks there! I had never even thought of such a thing. Perhaps having ammo locked away like they have to here in the UK has it's bonuses after all 

Yup...and some real dishonest folks as well...There are a lot of folks who will return ammo for 1 reason or another...claiming it didn't fire...or they just didn't need it any longer...and most of the dealers I frequent make it a point to open the boxes and inspect the ammo right away...The problem comes in when the check out counter is being slammed..and there are about 20 people waiting to check out...and they have a new check out person...Some stores have the policy of no returns on any ammo because of this happening...Cabela's...will take returns...but the ammo gets destroyed if the box has been opened...or shipped back to the manufacture if still sealed according to the store manager here...nothing goes back on the shelf..and their own employees can't have it either...I found it pays to be very observant of what your buying and not just assume everything is what it should be anymore....boxes get moved or put in the wrong place..or tampered with...I refuse to buy any factory ammo that I can see has been opened..without visually inspecting it first...and then would buy another of the same if there was enough for my purchase..and it just not for center fire ammo either I am this way...I have gotten mixed boxes of shot gun ammo as well...especially around turkey season...

Mac

[DalesCarpentry]

I've never kept a running count on the number of deer I've killed in my lifetime or how many with each gun or caliber. But it's safe to say that I killed a bunch in my younger years with a 243. Never lost a deer I hit with 243. I took a S&W bolt action in 243 out on a hunt 4 years ago and killed one of the biggest bucks of my life. Weighed 220 lbs and had a huge 7 point rack. I'd love to show you the 100 gr core-lock bullet that killed him but it didn't stop inside him. I have never seen any evidence that a 243 was unsuitable for deer. In fact a 243 has more foot pounds of energy at any range than a 30-30 or a 257 Roberts. It also shoots flatter than either of them. Yet I never hear anyone bash those two calibers as inadequate for deer.

I think the 243 gets a bad rep for several reasons. First, it is very often given to a child or a woman as their first rifle. Being youngsters or beginners in the sport they tend to shoot a little poorer than older more experienced hunters. Lost deer are often the result yet the caliber is often blamed. Second the 243 is a duel purpose caliber used for both deer and varmints. That being the case there is ammo out there that is intended for use only on varmints, but invariably ends up being used on deer. Horror stories often ensue and again the caliber gets the blame rather than the poor choice of ammo.

For all those claiming good hits on deer in which a 243 just mysteriously didn't kill the animal, I offer the following bet. We will purchase 50 head of deer from some game farm and place them in a pen. I will get up on the fence with my 243 and 3 or 4 boxes of 100 gr core-locks. I will then systematically start shooting each deer through the lungs once with my 243. For each one that dies from this single 243 inflicted lung shot you guys give me 1000 dollars. For each that survives it I will give yall 5000 dollars. All meat will be donated to some feed the hungry foundation. Deal?

I wouldn't take that bet if my life depended on it

Second the 243 is a duel purpose caliber used for both deer and varmints. That being the case there is ammo out there that is intended for use only on varmints, but invariably ends up being used on deer.

I'll make you another bet as well...concerning some of the failures...but...this one dealing with those who only shoot factory ammo bought off a shelf...I would bet...that some of these failures have been caused by some unscrupulous person that has switched some of the ammo out from another box of it...The folks at my local gun shop told me I would not believe how many times they have seen this in the past few years...It has gotten to the point of many dealers putting the ammo behind the counters around here...or using nylon re enforced tape on the boxes...Many folks just assume they have the correct ammo in the factory box...and it can be down right dangerous if not checked... I got hold of a box of 243 like that a couple months ago before deer season...it was supposed to be a box of Federal loaded with 100 grain Nosler Partitions and it was a mixed box with ballistic tips in it...and a couple 308 Winchester loads...Needless to say...I open all of the boxes now before leaving the store...

Mac

Mac that is new to me. None of the stores around here will except returns on ammo. Maybe this is why. Dale

[roscoe]

Never lost a deer with my 243 yet.It'll drop any deer that walks, the same as any other caliber can as long as everybody does there part in the big picture.
Take your time and make the first one right.

[Qaz]

 I wish I had never read this post. Now I have no respect for that old guy down the road that has been using his 243 to hunt deer, elk and moose with all these years. He still brags about how well it works and I doubt he even uses premium ammo, cause all he ever buys is that 100gr Cor-lokts. I have half a mind to go down there and tell him he has no idea what he is doing, except he does! He has told me most of my life that the majority of people just don't understand what hunting is all about.
 I think that all these stories about the 243 not being enough gun are just that, stories. A bad shot is a bad shot and a bigger round would make little difference.

[Coyote Hunter]

... In fact a 243 has more foot pounds of energy at any range than a 30-30 or a 257 Roberts. It also shoots flatter than either of them. Yet I never hear anyone bash those two calibers as inadequate for deer. ...

Todd1700 -

While I agree with much of what you say, I disagree with the above unless talking about factory ammo.  Loaded to the same pressures, a .257 Roberts will deliver more energy downrange and will shoot just as flat as a .243 Win - maybe flatter.

[rickt300]

While i agree that the 257 might have something over the 243 using 117-120 bullets I wouldn't take any different shot angles than I would with a 243 or 6MM Rem.

[huntswithdogs]

This whole thing has been an interesting read. Some of the "dabating" has been pretty good aslo. That being said I'll have to agree with most of ya on a lot of points.

Will a 243 kill a deer?  YEAH
Is it adequate? Yeah
Are there other calibers that do the same thing ? Yeah
 Are opinions like butts? Yeah, 'cause everybody elses stinks worse than your own !

I've used a lot of different calibers and gauges to kill deer for the last 37 years. Most of them were killed with my 243. Has this come about because I had no other choice? NO. It just happens that this particular rifle fits me so well, it's like an extention of me. I use 100 gr bullets from various manufacturers with the same results over and over...Meat in the fever. I've not shot but one or two more than once. While very few have been the bang/flops, they've not gone very far either. I've lost 1 deer while hunting with this rifle. The loss was completely on me and had nothing to do with the caliber. If I'd shot a little straighter and put the bullet where it belonged, he'd have been mine. Had I taken the same shot with my 300WM, 308, 270, 50 cal. muzzleloader, or my 12 ga shooting foster slugs, the results would have been the same. I screwed up!
Whether hunting with my 243 or whatever, I try to take the most ethical shot possible. I ain't starving and could probably stand to lose a couple of lbs...okay, maybe 20? These raking shots, shots taken at running deer or the famed TEXAS HeartShot are not shots I'll take.

If I had to choose one caliber/rifle for all of my deer hunting it wouldn't be a 243. Do I sound like a traitor? I hope not. It's just that there are better calibers out there and a lot of them have been mentioned already. But while I'm able , I'll be toting that ole 243 every year 'til I can't.

HWD

[Heavy C]

I too have been following this thread for a while now.  HWD makes some valid points that in general I agree with as well.  I believe the 243 (6mm) is a fine round for deer and more than adequate to do the job.

My daughter and I have harvested 4 doe between the two of us.  2 of them fell dead in their tracks at 150 yards.  The other two trotted off and expired 20 yards later.  It all comes down to shot placement.  In each case we used 100 grain Federal Power Shoks.

My younger brother has hunted with a 6mm for more years than I can remember and he has always harvested game cleanly and ethically whether it was whitetails or mule deer.

At the end of the day my 6mm Encore has proven it can do the job.

[pcking78]

  WOW, after reading this thread it almost sounds like my female co-workers bickering in the breakroom at work.   Just kidding guys.   I really respect everyone's opinion here. 
   First off, I'll say that I have never owned a .243 nor shot a deer with one.  All my deer have been taken with a 30'06, 30-30, muzzleloader, and one with a bow.  I know the .243 will cleanly take deer.  BUT, I think the difference in the debate is what constitutes a "well-placed shot"

I just recently returned from Kansas where I dropped a 10 pointer, my biggest deer yet.  I was using a blow-down as a ground blind and could only see about 100 yards down a narrow lane through the thicket infront of me.  A doe walked out within 20 yrds.  She winded me and trotted down the trail away from me.  Then the buck amerged about 50 yrds away from left.  When the doe went past he turned to follow.  Knowing it was my biggest deer, and the distance traveled and money spent, I took the only shot I had, right at his arse!   The bullet entered just to the left and exited out his rib cage on the right side; somehow missing the guts.  Call me unethical if you want, but when I make that big an investment, I am going to bring a weapon that will allow me to take a shot from ANY angle.  That is why I left my 30-30 at home and took my '06.

I feel that as long as you can reach the vitals it is not "unethical". 

Again, I don't have the experience with the .243.  If you guys tell me that a 100 gr. bullet has the penetration to reach the vitals by raking right up the "fundament". Then I've no reason to doubt you.  However, I don't get the feeling that is what ya'll mean when you say "a well-placed bullet".

[lakestatebob]

maybe some have experience with the bun hole shot, I've never taken one.  But you  raise and interesting question - my thoughts were any shot to the chest cavity ie: quartering to or away or broadside.  I think that it  has been shown to be undeniably adaquate with the .243  I just can't get past the potential ugliness of that bun hole shot shot.  I f you missed the guts I would assume you missed the lungs also so the deer must have been hit in the femoral artery and I would think the .243 would have done the same thing.

[prairiedog555]

I do not own a .243.  but I hear some bad stories about it from acquaintances and threads here, and some good reports as well.  So the controversy goes on.
What I don't understand is WHY, someone who is going out to buy NEW would take a chance when there is a really good caliber out there in the 7mm-08.  There does not seem to be much if any dispute that this is a great deer killer.  Light recoil, accuracy, bullet choice, flat shooting ect. 

I read somewhere here on GB that I think Mr. Fred opined on the .243 "It is too big for the small stuff and too small for the big stuff"

Just my opinion.  I shoot a 3006 and .308 and have had good results for years.  But if I was buying new it would be a 7mm-08.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

      Now this is confusing:-

I do not own a .243.  but I hear some bad stories about it from acquaintances and threads here, and some good reports as well.  So the controversy goes on.
What I don't understand is WHY, someone who is going out to buy NEW would take a chance when there is a really good caliber out there in the 7mm-08.  There does not seem to be much if any dispute that this is a great deer killer.  Light recoil, accuracy, bullet choice, flat shooting ect.

      7-08 is a cartridge the calibre is 7mm or if you like 0.284". Personally I would still choose the old 7mm Mauser or if you like 7x57 for a 7mm/0.284" calibre. However I have used 6.5mm/0.264" on deer for many years, in fact even before I acquired the 7mm and to be honest I cannot see any difference on the beasts between 6.5 and 7mm. With this in mind I cannot really see or expect any real difference in the 6mm.

    .243 Win is also a cartridge the calibre here is 6mm or .24 cal.

      Now I can only again point out that in the UK the 6mm calibre and specifically the .243 Winchester cartridge is probably responsible for the majority of Deer shot here. Covering all six species that are huntable here:-

Red Deer .... which of course are comparable and often larger than Whitetail Deer.
Sika
Fallow
Chinese Water Deer
Roe Deer
Muntjac Deer.

      Until recent changes in the law .240" was the minimum calibre allowed to shoot deer, however it's now legal in England and Wales to shoot Chinese Water Deer and Muntjac, .22 centrefires like .222 Rem and now legal.

     Yes I have heard of deer not dropping and living to die slowly, usually it's due to poor shooting and /or the wrong bullet type and of course the shooter not looking hard enough or even at all for the animal. Paoching and illegal night shooting is a major problem in some areas  . However not beign presnt when this has happened I cannot say what cartridge and calibre was being used.

      In 2008 I will actually be trying out 6mm/.24 cal on deer as I acquired a rifle chambered for 6mm Remington and another in .243 Win.

[beemanbeme]

Brit, I think a case could be made for the lack of bullet weight for the 6mms.  When the .243 and 6mm came out they were unveiled as dual cartridges, varmint/deer. And they were hyped for their velocity. If they couldn't at least match the 250-3000, they had little reason for being.  I've posted, I think in this thread, that if a 130 or 140gr bullet was available for the .243/6mm, you wouldn't be having these long post about its adequacy. 
You posted that you could tell little difference between the effects of a 6.5 bullet and 7mm bullet.  Altho my experiences with a 6.5 bullet are limited, I find that true but in both cases, I was using a bullet of substantial weight. ie, 140s.
This, of course, will bring shrieks from the .243 shooters that will tell of the thousands of deer out to 623 yards that were dumped like a sack of oats with their rifles.  But the fact remains that this subject comes up often enough that it does make one wonder. 

[lakestatebob]

I think this subject comes up because of people like me #1- little experience with this caliber - oops cartridge - #2 magnumitis you know, bigger must be better #3 the bullet just looks small ( a form of magnumitis?) #4 people like me want to here the results from more experienced hunters and verify their (my) suspicions.  Thats why we have bow hunters asking if 60lb compounds are good enough for deer (remember when the average bow was a 45lb recurve?) and if turkeys can be killed  at 40 yards  with anything other than 31/2" .12ga #4 heavey shot.  Don't get me wrong, big is O.K. but not necessary or even enjoyable (my opinion)

[usmc2111]

Don't have as much experience with it as some but my son just dropped a doe with his. Straight on chest shot and it took out the whole left side from the front shoulder to left hind quarter. 7" long and about 4" wide. Heart and lungs was jelly. He was at about 35-50 yds using 100grn Win SP. I have no doubt in this caliber. I will be using the same gun tomorrow. And hopefully it will put another deer in my freezer. No this isn't my only gun. I could choose 30/30, 12ga, 308, or 300Mag, but as someone mention earlier in the novel that I like seeing the bullet impact thru the scope and I can with this rifle.