.243 for deer

[Brithunter]

Hi There,

Brit, I think a case could be made for the lack of bullet weight for the 6mms.  When the .243 and 6mm came out they were unveiled as dual cartridges, varmint/deer. And they were hyped for their velocity. If they couldn't at least match the 250-3000, they had little reason for being.  I've posted, I think in this thread, that if a 130 or 140gr bullet was available for the .243/6mm, you wouldn't be having these long post about its adequacy. 
You posted that you could tell little difference between the effects of a 6.5 bullet and 7mm bullet.  Altho my experiences with a 6.5 bullet are limited, I find that true but in both cases, I was using a bullet of substantial weight. ie, 140s.
This, of course, will bring shrieks from the .243 shooters that will tell of the thousands of deer out to 623 yards that were dumped like a sack of oats with their rifles.  But the fact remains that this subject comes up often enough that it does make one wonder. 

    Hmmm should have qualified this about the 6.5mm's  you see I have used bullets in the 6.5mm ranging from 77 grains, yes that's right Norma makes a 77 grain semi spitzer and I have some factory loaded ammo with it, right up to the 160 grain which I found too much for our light Roe deer. So normal bullet weight used is the Speer 120 grain. Tried the Nosler Ballistic Tip in 100 grain but it's more of a varmint bullet. Heck the red fox I shot using it at about 75 yards was almost turned inside out  Good job I didn't want him mounted as the skin was ripped to shreds.

      I tend to agree about the "Magnumitus" and yes I have owned magnums. Had a nice Ruger No1B in .300 win mag and still own a .458 Win Mag, never used them on deer though. But in all truth the Magnums are not needed on deer here as unless you go to a couple of places most stalking is done in cover, althogth I will admit to have been a couple of places where shots of 400 yards or so would be possible. Although saying that you would be stupid to try one of those  . I know a lot of Hunters in the US would not agree but let me explain:-

  The species hunted and seen there was the Indian Muntjac, a Deer which stands about 24" at the shoulder so it's about the same size as the Springer Spaniel or a smallish Lab retriever. The vital zone is about 4" and Muntjac don't often stand still long so it's a small target which is mostly moving and they are prone to hang onto life and unless the shot is good recovering the beast is almost impossible. For example I shot a Muntjac Doe with a borrowed Mannlicher .243 ( I had picked up the wrong box of ammo so my rifle was out of commision  ) and made a perfect heart shot at about 60 yards. It took us 3/4 of an hour to find the carcase and that was using a dog!. She ran about 20 yards if that but burrowed under the grass at the bottom of a Christmas tree in the next row ( we were stalking a young plantation) so did so out of sight of us. Without the dog I would never have recovered here and lost a good carcase. The cartridge performed perfectly destroying the heart, my fault I should have aimed a little higher and took heart and lungs as I have found this drops Muntjac more quickly and cleanly and I have shot Muntjac using cartridges ranging from .308 Winchester, 30-30 Winchester, 7x57 Mauser, 270 Winchester and 6.5x55 Swedish and unless the high heart low lung shot or a neck shot (if close enough) is used they tend to run. Oh apart from the Buck I shot with the .270 as that was a little too high as I misjudged the distance and shot too high and the shock (130 grn Nosler Solid Base) hit the spine. Lost a bit of backstrap as the bullet did not hit the spine but went through about 1" below it.

    Now I have always steered clear of the 6mm's until now that is. Not because I thought them in adequete but because the Police tended to try and foist them on us as they were the Minimum calibre required by law for deer. Also the tendecy of the .243 to be  a little finicky with the heavier bullets  a friend had a Ruger No1B which would not accurately shoot any bullet over 90 grains. 85 grain bullets it woud shoot groups with all bullet holes touching yet with the 100 grain bullets they opened up to about 8" at 100 yards. I recently acquired a .243 rifle, was not looking for one but it came along at the right price and it was one I wanted for teh collection. A couple of years ago I also picked up a 6mm Remington chambered rifle. Again the price was too good to refuse and again it fitted into my little collection very well. Now I have them of course I want to get them shooting well and use them for that which they were built. Namely hunting  .

    The 6mm remington has prooved difficult and has just had a new bedding job to replace the defective bedding, the coumpound had come loose or it was not bonded to the wood in the first place. Possibly why it was traded off? The .243 waits it's turn as a previous owner has destroyed the bedding  in an attempt to free float the barrel. I will try out the 6mm tomorrow at the range to see if it's better now.

[pcking78]

  As for my earlier post, I really can't say why the deer dropped immediately.  the bullet entered the left ham and exited the back of the right rib cage, about an inch or two below the backstrap; so it didn't even hit the spine.   As for my comment about not hitting the guts, I meant the stomach and bladder were intact, the intestines it seems would have had to been hit, but I couldn't see where and there wasn't much mess at all when dressing it.   The bullet exited too far back to take out the lungs.  Possible the bullet seperated and part of it hit the spine?  Who knows, maybe one of those mysterious times when the deer just drops for no apparent reason.  But he was stone dead by the time I got to him.

    Bottomline, if I pay $300 dollars for an out of state license and much more for gas and hotel. I am going to take whatever shot I safely can.  I want a gun that will go deep enough to do some damage.  Even if I have to shoot from one end to the other.

   

[rickt300]

My use of the 6MM/243 cartridges generally is as a secondary deer rifle and a coyote gun. I take my 7x57, 30-06 or any moderately powerful rifle when I might get a shot at a big buck. I use the 6MM's when I am taking my does or there is no pressure to hurry a shot. That said I have killed a deer or two every year with various 6MM's for the last 30 years. I have found them to be very good killers. But I have never made a bad hit with one or had a deer travel more than 50 feet after being hit. I consider them "finesse" cartridges just as I feel the same way about Ballistic Tip bullets. They have their strong points and not so strong areas of performance.

[The Gamemaster]

I enjoyed reading all your posts.   They all have good points and bad points.

The one thing you have to look at is the source of where the results are coming from.

I believe that there were people posting on this subject from Florida to New York.

Now in my opinion, here is what I have to say about the .243 and then I will say nothing more.

When the .243 came out some 50 + years ago, it was a wildcat cartridge that was as good as the .308 Winchester in some circumstances.  In others it was nothing more than a good varmit round.

The engineering at the time was done well, but the bullet selection was not what it was today.

So to say that the same round that killed a 40 lbs doe in Florida can be compared to a 200 + lbs buck in Michigan cannot be the same.  There are always some deer that just refuse to die.

My best advice is that you use what you are comfortable with, at the same time think before you act.

I would never go hunting Elk with a 30/30 - just because it is a .30 caliber firearm and people killed hogs with .22 shorts.  We are talking a major difference in velocity and expansion and range between a farm animal killed at close range and a Elk killed at 300 yards.

I always try to use the best gun for the situation where ever I hunt.  Sometimes when I know that I am going to be in the open I will take one of my .270's and other times when I know that I am going to have to hunt to get something I will take my .300 Winchester Magnum.

Not to take anything away from my .270's but they just aren't that good in the thick stuff.

Then other times when I am going to shoot doe's only, I will take the old '06, just due to the fact that I have hundreds of rounds for it and it is cheap to shoot and most of the time it gets the job done.

You wouldn't want to haul coal for a living with a 1/2 ton pick up truck.  You would use a dump truck.  You wouldn't want to use the dump truck to haul grocery's once a week.  It just would be cost prohibitive from the stand point of fuel and maintenance and license and insurance.

Since there is a good choice of using 100 gr bullets, I would say that it would be my minimum choice for that rifle.  I would pick a premium bullet that would do the job as cheaply as possible.  Now in my case, I live in Pennsylvania and I hunt in the woods, farms, old homesteads etc.  So there is a wide range of where I hunt and what situations presents its self.

Even a 30 06 in the wrong hands is no good for whitetails where I live.  It won't shoot though brush and it won't shoot 500 yards with a Tasco 4 x scope.  It won't make a bad shot into a good shot.
It kicks, which means that it is no good for little kids, where the gun is bigger than they are.

The .243 does not kick, it does not penetrate brush, it will not penetrate a doe looking at you if you shoot it in the brisket.  It doesn't always penetrate the deer and come out the other side.

Logic tells me that you do not always want the bullet to come out the other side.  The bullet hole only causes minor damage, but the shock of the bullet traveling through the deer and then hitting the cape on the other side will cause more damage than just a .30 caliber steel jacket going though a deer.

The hide is elastic, which means that it pulls away from the body, absorbing some of the shock of the bullet - there by killing the deer just as good as my .270 Winchester Short Magnum - blowing a hole though it big enough to throw a cat through.

A large deer needs a large firearm to kill it at long range, it has to hold a certain amount of energy in the bullet to make it expand and penetrate at what ever range that you choose to shoot.  If it doesn't have 1000 ft lbs of energy at the impact, it is going to have a hard time killing the deer.

As long as you use a big bullet and you know the range of it's effectiveness, there is no use shooting.

Pennsylvania deer are as hard as they come when it comes to trying to harvest one in an open season on public ground.  You can't always pick your shot and you can't always wait until you get a broadside shot and you can't let it go and come back tomorrow.  Chances are, unless you shoot a Buck by 9 AM on the first day, you aren't going to get one - unless you hunt your butt off.

Putting on drives creates a new challenge, the deer are running and you have to make quick shots.
You can't always pick and choose where you are going to shoot or have a chance at a second shot.

Going to camp with a bunch of guys, there is usually a pretty good chance that if you do not have adequate guns for hunting deer, someone there will have a back up gun and will lend you one.
So there is no excuse for anyone to say that "It's the only gun I have".

Now if I was going to North Carolina or Georgia I would say that it was more than enough gun to get the job done.  With seasons and bag limits where you can shoot multiple deer per a year legally - who cares if one gets away every now and again.  Then again when the deer are not any bigger than my dog - it would be over kill to take even a 30 06!

In the right hands, the .243 is just as good a gun as a 7mm08 or a 25 06 or a 30/30!

In the wrong hands, it will lead to wounded deer and missed opportunities.

As long as you are happy with what it can do and what it cannot do, who cares what anyone else thinks.  Go out and hunt and have fun.  Take a kid in the woods with you, it will keep them off the street and off drugs.

[usmc2111]

I love your analogies but a dead deer is a dead deer. And I knew a few guys from around Hershey that hunted with a .243 and killed quite a few. And I can honestly say that I would hunt PA with one.

[lakestatebob]

I'm still amazed.  While understanding caliber and cartridge preferences, ( different strokes for different folks!) the evidence from many people shooting  big and small deer,  quartering and broadside out to 300 yards is almost overwhelming.  Even many of those who don't recommend the .243 have had no problems killing deer but have issues? marginal? I just don't get it anymore.  I'll bet I could find more "failure" stories with the .270 than the .243 on even "big" deer.  My neighbor shot a buck at less than 50 yards probably in the stomach and lost it, My son shot a small buck with a .270 at 65 yards in the chest and didn't get complete penetration and that was with the 150gr. corlokt .  I don't think anyone would not recommend the .270 for any deer.  Doubters, reread the experiences of those with much more than me on this thread.  All I read are successes.

[super mario]

I am 40 yr old and have been using a .243 for 30 yrs, killed lots and lots of animals in that time, the .243 will out right flatten anything I point it at. I havent lost one single deer or hog with it, my kids use it and havent had one problem either.  You dont need premium ammo in the .243 and I actually dont reccomend it either.  A 100 gr bullet has a SD of 242, thats actually more than a 150 gr .30 caliber.  So partitions are not needed unless you were elk or moose hunting.
I have a friend who is one slob @ss hunter, he has lost more deer than I care to count, and what does he shoot, a .308.
A recent magazine said the 7 mag has earned the reputation as the caliber to lose the most deer here in Texas, why cause thats what the most inexpierenced hunters choose as there weapon. A lost deer will always be due to shot placement and not the caliber, I guarentee it.

[deltecs]

If it doesn't have 1000 ft lbs of energy at the impact, it is going to have a hard time killing the deer.

A 100 gr .243 bullet with muzzle velocity of 2900 fps has approximately 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards distance.  If 1000 ft/lbs of energy is required to kill deer, then the .243 traveling at 2100 fps at this distance with 1000 ft/lbs of energy is not only sufficient but more than adequate to take deer at this range.  The terminal velocity is plenty to ensure expansion, the energy is enough to provide penetration, and the bullet with enough sectional density to maintain straight line penetration.  Enough said.

[Kurt L]

my son once shot a deer at 65 yards with the .270 - broke both shoulders spine and lodged just under the hide I'm thinking this is a legitimate  300 yard deer gun Yes? .

Just my 2 cents on this topic.
I have shot many deer with small bullets with better kills than big bullets. then you have the old timers stand by method
of you got to shoot them deer in the front shoulder to put them down,bull.
what is the part that has the most waste or meat that you don't eat on a deer? the ribs yes.what is behind them ?
lungs vital organs. what vital organs do you hit with a shoulder shot? most of the time none.
back to the main topic and bad rep on the 243 etc. is the 243 a bone crusher and made to blast the front shoulders of deer?heck no.
then we have post like one that states a 243 recked my hunt and had to borrow a 30-06 to fill the hunt. it's so easy to blame
the gun for a bad shot or?? than to stand up to the plate a say I messed up. I had to go 3/4 mile to get a deer I shot a couple years
ago with a 270 and 110 hp.Why? I messed up in a hurry.it was about 40 yards away in the corn and I had to act fast,I forgot that it shoots 2"+
low at that range and did a neck shot straight on,I messed up.All the deer I shoot are with light bullets and they do big damage to a deer's
ribs and lungs broadside and the same as for neck shots.Why use light bullets aren't you supposed to use big heavy bullets? yea if you want a small hole all the way like an arrow. my method is the 70-85 bullets for 243 and 85-87 for 257 Roberts and the biggest I use is 110 for 270 win.
I only do rib shots and back bone. neck shots. another thing on this topic was energy, how much energy was used up as that 180 grain sailed on through the deer?
not much.now you take lets say our topic gun the 243 win with a 70 grain and shoot your deer in the ribs or neck and that bullet explodes with major damage and stops in the deer. how much energy was used here?yes that deer took every bit of energy that the 243 had to hand out.and none was wasted by the bullet passing through the deer.About 40 yds is the farthest that I have had a deer run on a good rib shot
after you toss a 70 grain grenade in the lungs of a deer they don't go far but down. neck shots and back bone shots again toss a 70 grain grenade
in and it makes a big hole and down for the count. I would not trade the 243 win or 257 roberts for a dozen 7mags or 300 mag or whatever.
The 243 is a very good deer killing gun!My boy 12 shot his fist deer this year one shot with yes another one of those 243 winchesters.
He has watched and learned for years before he was old enough to hunt by himself so he knows how and where to shoot them.
shot placement and hit your mark is key!!!! If you screw up as we all do from time to time step up to the plate and take the heat for it and don't shoot your deer in the foot then pass it of as the junk gun won't kill a deer
Kurt..

[deltecs]

In my 45 years of hunting from the East coast to Alaska and places in between, one observation becomes glaringly apparent.  Many hunters use the lightest weight bullet for maximum velocity, flattest trajectory and highest energy calculations and expect that bullet to do everything at all yardage.  This simply isn't possible.  Regarding the .243 with bullets lighter in weight that expand or fragment as expected at 350 yards will just not penetrate on bone, going away angles, or brisket at the shorter ranges.  They will fragment upon impact with the high velocity.  Once the bullet fragments, there is not enough mass to ensure penetration into the vital area.  If the bullet is made to penetrate at 350 yard velocities, it generally is too frangible at the close ranges to hold together with the higher velocity.  This goes for almost all other overbore capacity cartridges too.  The bullets are designed to expand within a certain velocity range and if the velocity is outside that range, do not expect the bullet to perform as intended.  Don't blame the cartridge.  I've found the best overall hunting bullets that meet my expectations have a sectional density range from .225 to .300, unless used on large NA game.  I mean moose, big bear, bison, muskox, and very large elk.  I personally prefer bullets in the .250-.275 sectional density range for most hunting conditions.  The .243 is very limited in bullet sectional density selection,so hunting bullets should be selected with care.  Bullets in this caliber less than 85 gr are designed for varmints and not deer.  They have and will do the job, yet I prefer to use the 100 gr + bullets for my successful game hunting.

[nilescoyote]

Use a good bullet and choose your shots like you should and you will have nothing to worry about.
6mm's don't get the respect they deserve. They are a great game cartridge period with the proper bullet. They also dust 308s at the 1000 yard line shooting flatter and with less wind when matched up with a heavy bullet and a fast twist barrel.

[beemanbeme]

Do What??  Roflmao!!

[Brithunter]

Well let's look at it and see. How many long range bench rest matches are show with 30 calibres?

   A friend in the Midwest who shoots 600 Yard bench rest as well as High power uses a .243 AI and he came high up in the results in the stat championships the other uear with it so?

[beemanbeme]

Well now, you'll find one trick pony in every circus. I'd be interested to know just how many .243's are shot in 1k competition.  I don't compete but I've witnessed several --not exactly what you'd call an overwhelming sampling-- but the next .243 I see will be the first.  I think if someone were to win a couple of matches with one, shooting competitors being who they are, they would be falling all over themselves to have one made up.  Kinda like the shoot right handed, unload left handed craze of the last couple years.

[victorcharlie]

Actually, there are plenty of 6mm's shot in 1000 yard matches.  Not as many as 30 calibers, but still plenty....

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/1000ydpg02.html

[beemanbeme]

Hmmmm, I may have to eat a bit of crow on this.  I did a check and in the F class that they shoot off the ground, they apparently shoot quite a few .243's and AI's. Didn't say anything about them smoking the .30's but anyway, pass the hot sauce.

[nomosendero]

Hmmmm, I may have to eat a bit of crow on this.  I did a check and in the F class that they shoot off the ground, they apparently shoot quite a few .243's and AI's. Didn't say anything about them smoking the .30's but anyway, pass the hot sauce.

beemanbeme, you're alright!!

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

     In the UK the main target cartridge is still 7.62x51mm because that's is what the NRA stipulate alongside the 5.56mm. It's in F class and bench rest that alternative calibres are used. 6mm & 7mm seem to be the choice of the Bench Rest crowd and yes they do shoot Bench rest at 600 and 100 yards. In fact we are better served here in the UK with long distance ranges than the US. Off the top of my head I can think of four ranges which have 1000 or 1200 yard ranges yet the state of Missouri for one the furthest distance is only 600 yards. I wonder why more US states don't have at least 1000 yards ranges?

[jro45]

I've aways heard that the 100gr bullet in the 243 is great and will do the job of killing a deer.

[Ponydog]

My son just took a nice 12 point in S Texas last week with his H&R 243 single shot.....110 yards....100 grain Rem Core lokt...he did not run 20 feet...before he dropped.......shot placement , as I have read dozens of times.....means alot.

[super mario]

I just cant believe how many times we argue about the lethality of the .243. Anything bigger for whitetail is just a waste, unless you were shooting above 300 yds and even then the .243 works but I would opt for a little more umph at 500 yds.  Most of my shots are under 100 yds, I shoot 99% of those in the neck, my choice for under a 100 yds is a .22 Hornet, above that I bring out the cannon, a .243.  Heres some pics
 The first one is an exit wound on a spike my 8 yr old son took with the .243 at 195 yds, the second one is after we skinned it.










 This is a pic of an exit wound on a spike I shot over the weekend, neck shot at 55 yds using the hornet with 45 gr HP,s  Looks like a greneade went off in there.






Why does any one need anything bigger is beyond me. Who ever thinks the .243 wont penetrate is just flat out wrong, I have seen it go through deer from end to end.

[AtlLaw]

<major snippage> Who ever thinks the .243 wont penetrate is just flat out wrong,] I have seen it go through deer from end to end.

Having voiced my position on this subject I have managed to remain quiet on this thread until now.  But now I have been personally gored!!    I now own one .243.  I've had others, but they are gone and the only reason I have this one is because I HAD to have an 1885 Low Wall and at the time I bought mine they didn't make it in .260.

Will the .243 kill deer?  Of course it will!  I've killed a lot of deer with the .243.  Never lost one, some died in their tracks, some ran a bit.  Just about the same as any other cartridge.  My deer load for the Low Wall is the same as one of the Federal Prem. loads; 100 GR. Sierra BTSP @2960 FPS.  But if the .243 wasn't somewhere on some fence you wouldn't have so many people hollerin back and forth at each other from both sides!

Personally, I'll probably never use a 243 for deer hunting again.  One reason is I doubt if I'll live long enough to get back around to it.  Another is I just don't have the faith in it I should.  Maybe not rational, but fact.  I'll stick with my 25's, 26's, 27, 28's, 30's, 33, 35's & 45 for whatever deer hunting I have left thank you very much.

Now, about penetration.  I killed two of our smallish deer, 8 pointers, with the .243 last year.  Both were standing broadside shots at 125 +/- yards.  One buck managed to crawl a few feet with no heart, the other ran far enough to get out of the field he was in into the woodline.  Neither bullet exited.  I NEED exit wounds!  I can't count on the 243 to fullfill that need.  YMMV (and obviously does!   )

[flintlock]

If you always want exit wounds on lung shots move to a 100gr Nosler Partition, a 100gr Remington CoreLokt or a 100gr Hornady Interlock...

I know what the .243 will do...I don't recall seeing where a poster hit a deer in the lungs with a properly constructed deer bullet out of a .243 and had problems...I have met folks locally that lost deer, but they could not even tell me which bullet they hit the deer with...

I have killed several with the 100gr Sierra SPBT and it does a good job, but in my case it did not give exit wounds as reliably as the above three bullets....

[backstrap]

i am surely glad i hunt where i dont have to have a exit wound and track deer the deer i have shot the last 18 years only ran a few yards from where i have shot them,from useing a 223 25-06,243,30-06, but i am sure if a person hunting a gungle would need a exit would bllod trail just glad i dont have to worry about all that stuff

[super mario]

Now, about penetration.  I killed two of our smallish deer, 8 pointers, with the .243 last year.  Both were standing broadside shots at 125 +/- yards.  One buck managed to crawl a few feet with no heart, the other ran far enough to get out of the field he was in into the woodline.  Neither bullet exited.  I NEED exit wounds!  I can't count on the 243 to fullfill that need.  YMMV (and obviously does!   )

Do you think the .243 is the only one not to exit, just this year I saw a 7 mag, a .270 wsm and  a .270 win not exit a deer either.  Actually I have seen the .270 win  fail to exit more times than the .243 at our hunting camp.  The Regular Hornady btsp is another bullet worth trying, ive been impressed to say the least.

[backstrap]

No i am not saying that i shot my buck this year with my new 25-06 120gr bullet at 80 yards and it didnt exit, i just dont have to track my deer because the  cover i hunt in is just weeds 4 feet tall and a few trees. i am sure there are a lott of calls that will not exit a deer 

[super mario]

BK strap, I was actually talking to someone else, look at the quote before my reply.

[AtlLaw]

Do you think the .243 is the only one not to exit, <snip>

Heck No!  Just off hand I can remember bullets not exiting our itti-bitti south Georgia deer from my .257, .260, .270, .308, 30/06, .338/06, & 45/70!    And that's without straining what's left of my grey matter!  I hope I'll be able to let you know how the 35 Whelen does after this weekend!  

It has always seemed to me that the Sierra BT's come apart fairly quickly so I about went crazy trying to get that Low Wall to shoot decently with Nosler Partitions and such.  Then I stumbled upon the aforementioned load which shot t-tiny groups from the get-go.  Now all of this took place during one of my "must shoot premium bullet" phases, but I do still got a bunch of 100 gr. .243 Partitions and Grand Slams that I want to try with some H4831SC, so I may find another load I just HAVE to try out on some of our free range, home grown, organic fed grocery product.     In the mean time, the rifle spits 55 gr. Nosler BT's into really small groups at about 4K FPS and is now my go-to coyote gun.   Heyyyyy!  I don't want an exit wound on coyotes!  Coincidence    I think not!  

[kevthebassman]

If you absolutely cannot bring yourself to use a .243, but you are recoil sensitive, the 6.5X55 is an excellent (perfect?) cartridge for taking North American big game.  They use it on moose in Norway and have been doing so for a long time.  The bullet has good SD and thus very good penetration.

[nilescoyote]

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/243Win.html