45-70 Buffalo Bore brass???

[KenSel]

I've got a box of Buffalo Bore brass that I prepped for loading and I noticed something when I tried to prime it; the primer pockets are smaller.  So my question is; What kind of primer do they use?  I'm pretty sure its a small rifle primer, but I can't find any load data for the 45-70 using a small rifle primer.  Do any of you know where I could find such data?  I'm gonna try contacting BuffBore tomorrow and see what they say.  I've got some 350gr. Hornady FP bullets that I want to load so I'm hoping they will share one of their "recipes'" with me. 

CAUTION THE LOAD DATA I LISTED BELOW IS ONLY SAFE IN MARLIN 1895 AND RUGER #1 RIFLES!!!!!!

Oh and on a side note - I loaded up some Remington brass with 50 grains of IMR 3031 and the 350gr. FP bullet and I noticed that there was a bulge in the brass where the bullet was.  It looked kinda scary but it produced a 1/2" 4 shot group at 50yds.  I now have 4 rounds loaded up with 52gr of 3031 and the bulge is still there and I also noticed that with this amount of powder it's getting darn close to a compressed load.  I'm wanting to work my way up to 54 grains and maybe even up to max load depending on the accuracy, but I'm pretty sure 54gr will be compressed even though the manual doesn't list it as such.  Do any of you have experience with this combo and what do you recommend?
I appreciate any advice you guys with more experience can give me.
Thanks,
Kenny

[victorcharlie]

Your well below max according to Hodgdons data.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I haven't shot the 350 grain you've listed but do load 3031 with a three hundred grain Remington JHP.  My favorite load is somewhat below max at 57.5 grains but it's still a heavy load, might be compressed but still fits fine.......very accurate in my 1895......  60 grains is listed as max for your bullet...........

The bulge doesn't sound good.......is it that way coming out of the die or after the shot? 

[KenSel]

victor - the Hornady manual lists the max load as 56.1 grains for this bullet with a COL of 2.545" 
The bulge is just in the case mouth area where the bullet is seated.  I believe that my sizing die is tapering my cases and making the case diameter smaller than the bullet diameter.  Well that's what it looks like to me anyway.  I may try loading up some of my Winchester cases and see if it does the same.

[victorcharlie]

Are you belling the case mouth with the expander ball die before seating the bullet?

[quickdtoo]

Ken, I use the Lyman "M" die for the 45-70/45-120, it pretty much eliminates the bulge, it's there, but less significant. I also use a Lee Loader body to start the bullet in the case to insure the bullet is aligned with the case perfectly, then the bulge is even all the way around and there's virtually no bullet runout.

Tim

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000157349053

http://www.grafs.com/fc/product/169479

[KenSel]

thanks Tim, I'll look into those.  is it safe to have that bulge up front like that?  all of my loads so far have functioned flawlessly in the rifle and have been very accurate but I've only loaded up to 52 grains of IMR 3031.  I'm wanting to work my way up to somewhere between 54 and 56 grains but the bulge looks a little scary especially since the load gets compressed at about 54 grains.  if it's safe then i'll save my money and keep using what I got but if not then I may have to  purchase the "M" die.

Ken

[quickdtoo]

I wouldn't worry about it if it's even all the way around, if it's not, the bullet will enter the rifling with a bit of yaw with possible decreased accuracy.

Tim

[KenSel]

Tim - that's what I was hoping you would say.     Also do you know of any loads using the Buffalo Bore brass and small rifle primers? 

[quickdtoo]

Here's some info on the BB ammo, but with pistol primers.

The reason for large pistol primers in a 45-70 was thoroughly thrashed out on the original Marlin Talk. Nobody must be here from that era that recalls the reason.
Tim Sundles had a mag tube explosion in an 1895 when he was developing his Buffalo Bore loads with a wfln cast bullet.
The reason for this is the 1895 mag tube has a bulge on the left side to aid the big 45-70 cartridge being loaded thru the loading gate. The last round in tends to stay in this cockeyed position and the meplat edge of this bullet rests against the primer of the round in front of it.
Heavy recoil and 'pop' a mag tube explosion.
Bulged mag tube and split forearm but no real bodily harm to Tim.
I believe Mic Mc Pherson was able to reconstruct the event. Sundles went to Marlin, but got nowhere, so developed his loads with Large Pistol primers to set the anvil .003-.004" deeper and that kept the meplat edge from hitting the primer in front to cause a mag tube detonation. Oila! that's the reason for hot loads and certain cast bullets to be loaded with the pistol primers. People in the know have a method to their madness.
Mr Sundles knowing Marlin was deaf and dumb as relates to liability, would not and did not modify the 'bulge' as it is in the mag tube.
He went to Starline Brass and they acknowledged the problem and started making 45-70 Buffalo Bore Brass with the primer pockets.003-.004" deeper so larger rifle primers could be used for his manufacturing process and give him the advantage of this not happening again. I believe Randy Garrett eventually followed suit with his Heavy loads even though there was no instance of a mag tube detonation with his products.
There were some 1895 owners that removed the mag tubes and dremel tool cut slots to put a flat spring over this bulge inside the tube that would deflect for loading purposes, but align the last round squarer to the tube and preclude this from happening.
The furor this incident caused was the prime reason the original Marlin Talk was shut down IN MY OPINION, only. It was all there at one time, but history now.
Large pistol primers can take Marlin pressures with safety in the real world.
A short firing pin or weak spring may cause erratic detonation. Now you know the rest of the story. (to quote Paul Harvey).

http://www.marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=21256&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=buffalo+bore+brass&start=30

And the last post of this thread in the MDWFP forum. Be aware that Hodgdon's max 300gr data in modern rifles(ruger level) is 63gr H4198, 60gr max for the 1895. When changing components, it would be wise to use start data and work up. The only info I found on small rifle primers was with 300gr bullets, not the 350gr Hornady FP. Hodgdon's data uses WLR primers.

Well the results are in! I went to the range today and made a few shots through the chrony with my NEF handi-rifle. I shot a 5 shot group of handloads(62 grains H4198, small rifle magnum primer, 300 grain Sierra H.P. F.N.) 15 feet from the end of the barrel and this was the results: 2435, 2445, 2437, 2410 & 2423 fps. That resulted in an average of 2430 fps. I then shot the factory loaded Buffalo Bore 300 grain H.P. F.N.. It also was a 5 shot group and the results were as follows: 2486, 2432, 2467, 2432 & 2413 fps. The Buffalo Bore resulted in an average of 2446 fps. I hope this helps anyone that may also be working on a load for a 45-70. Good luck and better shooting, Kenwin.

http://www.mdwfp.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21744


http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

[KenSel]

thanks for the info Tim, I knew if anyone could help me it would be you.

[EsoxLucius]

Buffalo Bore 45-70 brass is made by Starline for Buffalo Bore and is a custom product.  Tim Sundles developed the brass with a doubly-recessed small rifle primer pocket designed to accept the CCI No. 41 military spec small rifle primer.  This primer is an anti-slamfire magnum primer.  Sundles developed this configuration to virtually eliminate the possibility of a tube magazine detonation.  Use any load data you choose, but because you have substituted a component, reduce the starting load by 5% and work up carefully towards the maximum charge watching for signs of excessive pressure or velocity.  In any event, the magnum-like CCI No. 41 small rifle primer is likely to generate ignition in a similar fashion as a large rifle primer.  And remember that Starline brass is about the thickest 45-70 brass available with a resultant reduction in case capacity compared with WW, RP and Federal.  Glad I could help.