CVA, T/C & NEF...opinions, please.

[Bowhunter57]

I've owned a T/C Hawkin and a Pennsylvania Hunter (roundball rifle), so I'm aware of the quality and accuracy from a T/C.

I'm considering the purchase of a modern inline and am torn between a CVA Optima, a NEF Sidekick SS or a T/C Omega.
Obviously, the Sidekick has my attention for the lowest cost, but I'm all about the accuracy that can be achieved out to 100, 150 and 200 yards. I realize that there are a number of variables with loads to attain good accuracy and I've reloaded for my share of centerfire rifles. However, in general are all of the above mentioned rifles capable of attaining good accuracy or is there one or more that "shine" above the rest?

Your opinions and experiences are appreciated.
Thank you, Bowhunter57

[Redhawk1]

Given the choices you mentioned, the Omega hands down. Sorry but the others don't impress me and I  don't like them, so don't anyone take offense if you happen to like them. 

[smokepolehall]

I am T/C loyal, Have had Hawken & 2 Renegades. I have a New Englander & a Grey Hawk, plus a Blk. Dia. XR Express SS. I'd pick an Omega but not the Z5 or Z7. Don't know much about the Triumph as it doesn't have a track record.

[Oldsnow]

First pick would be T/C encore.

Second pick would be NEF. Huntsman

[sportsman223]

 T/C hands down. Have you considered an Encore or G2 more versatile with barrel witch and everyone seems to be trading them in for ProHunters you might be able to find a good used one priced right.
  Mine will out shoot any of my buddies ProHunters but it might be the guy behind the trigger

[quickdtoo]

The H&R Huntsman is no longer made, although barrels can still be ordered and fitted to any of their frames(except 10ga) made since 1987.

Tim

[Swampman]

The NEF Sidekick SS would be my first and only choice of those you listed.  I wouldn't buy anything made in Spain(CVA)

The Knight Wolverine is also a fantastic value.  It has a Green Mountain barrel and it's made in the USA.

[Busta]

Depends on what type of bullet you want to shoot. Conicals or Saboted?

The first thing I would do with any of the three you mentioned is order a .25 ACP plug, so that levels the playing field on ignition. I don't like the 209 ignition. If you want to shoot both conicals and saboted bullets or just conicals, that only leaves one choice IMO, the Sidekick. The QLA's generally don't do well with Conicals, especially the T/C's. If you just want to shoot saboted bullets with MAGNUM charges, then the Omega would get the nod, but only if money were not an object. THe Omega's my buddies have are accurate, but they have a very narrow window for the RIGHT load. Some of the Omega's seem to like only Magnum 3-pellet loads, others seem to like the 110 grain range. The NEF's are as accurate as any of my muzzleloaders. I can shoot 200 grain saboted bullets all the way to 460 gr conicals in my NEF Huntsman, and it is the least fussy muzzleloader I have ever owned or shot.

If you ever plan to hunt Elk in Colorado, you will need a conical shooter. The style of hunting I do would only leave one choice for me, the NEF Sidekick.

Good luck with your decision, I think any of them will be fine with the right load.

[Bowhunter57]

Depends on what type of bullet you want to shoot. Conicals or Saboted?

...my NEF Huntsman, and it is the least fussy muzzleloader I have ever owned or shot.

If you ever plan to hunt Elk in Colorado, you will need a conical shooter. The style of hunting I do would only leave one choice for me, the NEF Sidekick.

Good luck with your decision, I think any of them will be fine with the right load.

Thank you to all that have replied, so far.

Busta,
Odd that you'd mention hunting Elk in Colorado. My wife and I intend to move there in the spring. Colorado Springs, Montrose or a couple of other locations, as the final decision hasn't been made, yet. I do like the versatility that you state about the NEF. I've not noticed any of the T/Cs that I've owned in the past being particular with loads of any kind, but perhaps that's different with inlines.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

You should also consider a Lyman Great Plains Hunter with the fast 1:32 twist. As Busta said about the tc inlines, They often throw up the conical. I took a look at a few tc's and its amazing at how much barrel they waste on their inlines with that QLA. Every inline i ever owned only had a 1/4" QLA VS tc's 1" long qla. I'd really check out the CVA Optime ELITE muzzleloader. They have a top of the line barrel that guarantees that they will out shoot any production TC muzzleloader barrel.  Not bashing here or anything  but American made products are simply not the best out of the market today.

Im 2 hours south of colorado springs.

[Swampman]

"American made products are simply not the best out of the market today."

At least they aren't dangerous to life and limb like the Spanish made products.

[Redhawk1]

"American made products are simply not the best out of the market today."

At least they aren't dangerous to life and limb like the Spanish made products.

You can say that again...

[AndyHass]

"American made products are simply not the best out of the market today."

At least they aren't dangerous to life and limb like the Spanish made products.

You can say that again...

OK guys, have any of you actually KNOWN of one that blew up, and we're not talking 1990 CVA here?  Or are you simply taking Randy Fakeman's hype at face value with absolutely no facts to back it up?  I've owned Spanish guns and while they weren't my favorite none of them blew up and I certainly abused one of them with experiments that would have fractured a weak barrel.

Of the guns you list, I would qualify it if you plan to hunt elk in Colorado.  I believe they require iron sights and conicals?  The Omega has an X7 version for that, which I own and really like, though I have never tried conicals in it.

I own 2 Omegas and I am curious where al the QLA animousity comes from.  Certainly my guns are plenty accurate to consistently drop deer at 200+ yards.  Half an inch extra barrel is not going to do much for your velocity, so what's the deal?

I have shot the NEF guns and have not been very impressed though within their price range I would consider them decent.  I don't feel CVA gives you enough of a discount from an Omega to make it worth it.

[Redhawk1]

AndyHass, no I have not seen one personally, but all the bad press before has me convinced. Also I don't have to just go by Randy Wakeman's writings.
All I know, I don't want to be the one pulling the trigger on one when it goes kaboom. I don't want to have to be the one that is your poster boy for crap guns. If you like them, then you shoot them. Hopefully you won't be a poster boy for Spanish made products.

[Busta]

I own 2 Omegas and I am curious where al the QLA animousity comes from.  Certainly my guns are plenty accurate to consistently drop deer at 200+ yards.  Half an inch extra barrel is not going to do much for your velocity, so what's the deal?

Andy,

I know several people that own Omega's, they shoot saboted bullets very well. The problem with the T/C QLA's is that many are not concentric to the bore. I am not exactly sure of their process, but it is not very accurate. Any time you add another process into the mix, you have a bigger potential to make something worse than it was. Lets face it, QLA's as well as ported muzzles on muzzleloaders are not there to increase accuracy. I was hoping that the X7 "King of the Mountain" would come without the QLA, I would own one if they had. I thought T/C was finally making a Colorado conical chucker, but that was not the case. Several have had their QLA's removed from the barrels. It is not a big secret that gunsmith's are chopping off QLA's, re-crowning barrels, and shortening the ramrods on T/C's.

The conical, as you know rides directly on the rifling and does not have that plastic cushion like a saboted bullet. The QLA definitely has an effect on them, I don't know if it is blow-by, but it upsets the accuracy. The sabot base expands as it leaves the bore and doesn't seem to be as effected by it.

All I can say is, get some good conicals and try them yourself. Some of them will shoot them OK, but my bet is that it will be less than half will do it well. Only you can know if yours will shoot them well, by shooting them and finding out for yourself.

A good clean true crown is going to give you the best accuracy, anything else (porting, false muzzle) only has the potential to take away accuracy IMO.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

"American made products are simply not the best out of the market today."

At least they aren't dangerous to life and limb like the Spanish made products.

I wouldnt jump the gun so soon and say that. Ive seen people talking about their american made 270, 300 and 223's encores blowing up on them with factory ammo.

Then again, i seen people liking their american made, made in russia brownings.

[AndyHass]

I've never tried conicals out of my Omegas so I wouldn't know how they shoot.  I would think if the QLAs were truly off center that they would also affect sabot accuracy but maybe it's different for some reason.  Another theory would be that it's easier to somehow misshape a lead conical loading it through a QLA? 

I can't remember the exact rifle or the name of the match, but I recall a ML match in the late 1800s where the innovation the winners used was a false muzzle they loaded through to increase accuracy.  Of course it didn't stay on the gun when they shot either.

[sabotloader]

AndyHass   

There is a problem with a QLA on a lot of TC's - and it does effect accuracy of the conical while it does not effect sabots or even powerbelts...

The effect of the QLA is the same as the crown on the end of the barrel being dinged.  When the conical exits the rifled portion of the barrel and enters the QLA the pressure may be allowed out faster on one side of the conical than on the other causing a tiny bit of defection and from there you know the rest of the story.  We do not see it with sabots or power belts because the sabots or skirts are able to expand enough to fill the QLA allowing the proper exit of the bullet.  Where this problem really shows up is when shooting a conical with a hollow base meant to expand to the bore and hold the pressure behind the projectile.  Flat base conicals can get out a little better but still the unequal release of gas around the projectile can cause a slight bit of defelection

Usually the conical problem with a QLA is because the QLA is off center of the bore.

I know I have not explained it as well as my gunsmith did to me, just hope you can kinda figure out what I am trying to say.

[Swampman]

"I wouldnt jump the gun so soon and say that. Ive seen people talking about their american made 270, 300 and 223's encores blowing up on them with factory ammo.  Then again, i seen people liking their american made, made in russia brownings."

I wouldn't buy any of those you've listed either.

Get a Knight or an NEF and live to be old.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

i heard that the massive blowback from the NEF's Erode the frame.

Knights are nice, but they really need to add some drop to their stocks. The only knight i handled that fit me and shouldered right away was the revolution. Not to impressed with their rolling block either.

[Swampman]

The Knight Wolverine is the best inline you can buy IMO.

[Busta]

i heard that the massive blowback from the NEF's Erode the frame.

bigblock,

Would you mind telling me where you heard/read that? I have never heard of such a thing, but would surely be interested in finding out where you heard that. The plastic 209 carriers will erode over time, NEF says you will get about 20 shots on one carrier. The first carrier I used, I had over 60 shots on it and it can still be used if I wanted to. If somebodies frame had erosion, that sombody must have used Pyrodex and never cleaned it. I stated that I would get a .25 ACP conversion for any 209 rifle, that all but eliminated any blowback in my Huntsman. I will have a little smoke ring where the .25 case meets the standing breech after a shooting session, that is it. I have had a SS NEF for the past 5 seasons, it is my favorite and least expensive ($202) muzzleloader. I don't like the 209 primers, but they are very functional and I used it that way for 2 seasons. Once you go .25 ACP ignition,  it will spoil you. I have used just about every powder available and my SS NEF doesn't have one speck of corrosion or erosion on it anywhere.

Please show me the erosion.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Read about it on quite a few forums where the owners were complaining about the blowback cutting into the rear frame of their sidekicks. Kind of like what a flintlock does to the side of the pan. The pressure/blowback cuts into the metal over time.

[Busta]

Read about it on quite a few forums where the owners were complaining about the blowback cutting into the rear frame of their sidekicks. Kind of like what a flintlock does to the side of the pan. The pressure/blowback cuts into the metal over time.

bigblock,

Quite a few forums? Really? I have been around for at least a couple weeks, never once ever seen anything about that. If it is happening, I'd sure like to know about it. Can you just show me ONE forum where you read that?

I am not saying that this is not happening or it is not possible, but I have been on the H&R/NEF Talk forums and now here at Graybeards for around 6 years total, never heard of that one before. I am not saying there is no blowback with the carriers, because there is, they were designed to vent out the slot. I would and do recommend the .25 ACP plug to anyone buying a NEF or any 209 muzzleloader for that matter, it is worth the investment to me.

I have seen breech plugs with erosion from gas cutting them on some top of the line rifles too, but never this.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

HNI   

Pglasgo i think his handle is. He sold his sidekick lastyear i believe due to the blowback taking out the rear of the frame. He had some pics of it when it was for sale.

There are other forums out there that had this problem pop up. Try running a yahoo/google search.

[fourty-five-seventy]

i heard that the massive blowback from the NEF's Erode the frame.

Well here gos this is my first post here on GBO.  Although I'm not new to this board I have been here a while.   I have a sidekick and I love it.  It is the blued with wood model. I ordered it in DEC of "06" and I finally got it Aug of "07".   I researched this gun for a little over a year before I made my choice.  One of the determining factors was that as I understand it Marlin redesigned it and took over production of the gun.  I have shot it a number of times now and I have not experienced the massive blow back that you speak of or like I have seen with other ML.   In fact I have very little or no smoke either.  My dad has only shot it twice once at a target @ 75 yds and once at a doe @ 70 to 80 yds in the early ML season here in Iowa.  Needless to say the doe took three steps after she jumped and did a side flop.  I am shooting 68 to 70grs volume of triple 777 behind a Dead Center 300gr 44cal in a black sabot.  I tried 85 to 90 grs when I started and man it packed more punch than my Marlin 1895cb. 

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

He had pics of the cut that the blowback left, ive seen people asking what they could do to stop the blowback so....  Give the nef time and shoot'er and see how it does.

[Busta]

HNI   

Pglasgo i think his handle is. He sold his sidekick lastyear i believe due to the blowback taking out the rear of the frame. He had some pics of it when it was for sale.

There are other forums out there that had this problem pop up. Try running a yahoo/google search.

bigblock455,

I have done some extensive research on the net for your inaccurate description of the condition of Pglasgow's Sidekick. I found his classified ad, I'm sorry but I don't see the pictures you referred to, nor the mention of any EROSION on the frame. From now on, I would suggest you get your facts straight before you type. I think Pglasgow would not take kindly to you putting words in his mouth. He did mention that he ran approximately 650 shots through it and did have a gas cut on the breech plug. After 650 shots I don't think it would be unreasonable to have to replace the breech plug, many rifles would have worn out a breech plug by then. I bought one for mine to have as a spare, and it came to a whole $6.95 at a Sporting Goods Store. I am sure had he called NEF and told them, they probably would have sent him one for nothing. I now shoot with the .25 acp plug, so I have not worn one of those out as of yet. If you look real close at the avatar of the gentleman that sent the PM in the Sidekick ad, not only is that a OUTSTANDING buck, but notice the rifle that is proudly displayed with the buck. Congratulations to him.

http://www.hunting.net/forum/tm.aspx?m=1868916&mpage=1&key=&#1868916

I did find some interesting things about cracked BPI/CVA/Winchester apex stocks, and some of their barrels that were split open like banana peels.

I think I will go back and actually register, so I can send Pglasgow and the gentleman that bought his Sidekick a PM to find out the actual condition of the rifle. Unless you can scrounge up those pics???

[Swampman]

He had pics of the cut that the blowback left, ive seen people asking what they could do to stop the blowback so....  Give the nef time and shoot'er and see how it does.

I don't believe any of this.  I'm all over the web and I've never heard of it.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Actually the seller if you would go through some of his topics hes chatted in, advises people to stay away from the sidekick. He replaced the sidekick with a winchester apex BTW. Looks like HNI cleared out all the history when they updated. Oh well. You can always ask his feelings about the nef.