Author Topic: Stopping power or capacity? (Read 6376 times)

jimster · « **Reply #60 on:** April 14, 2008, 06:53:45 AM »

Montveil, you did hit it on the head. I changed the way I practice a couple years back as well...no more shooting 500 plus rounds every two weeks...now I shoot 2 to three times a week with much less ammo, maybe 30 to 50 rounds, and my intention is to do it all right, and hit my target every time, no matter what. I have to say it helped me a lot shooting less ammo more often, and I would get pretty tired trying to do everything exactly right after that many rounds, and develop bad habits from fatigue.

Your right on...nothing much matters without a center hit...first time you shoot...and every time you shoot.

Mohawk · « **Reply #61 on:** April 14, 2008, 11:12:08 AM »

As in what was learned by the NYPD years ago. The .38 158grain Lead Round Nose became a formidable load when the officers were taught tactics as opposed to exposing themselves and just empty their weapons. Let me use available cover with a .38 as opposed to a rifle in the open. Of course a rifle with cover would be ideal. Create simple distance between you and your attacker is the first thing, moving toward gunfire is natural but not beneficial. Once the distance is created then that is where your training and marksmanship becomes overwhelming against an untrained criminal that has no firearms experience. I read so much about what "load" is the best for self defense. My answer is the one carried by the person planning on surviving, even if his gun is unloaded.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #62 on:** April 15, 2008, 01:01:54 AM »

interesting post , it sounds like its not far from the if i don't have a gun i can't get hurt crowd . Why would anyone advocate an empty gun ? Why do people insist on comparing armed citizens with police ? they are not the same !
Police are paid to enter crime areas , armed citizens are not and should not if at all possible , citizens don't have aval. back up , etc. etc. ... The use of cover is a good idea but when the armed mugger is at spitting distance and a single shot may indeed mean the difference in who will have the worst day you better be fast on the trigger and have a gun loaded with the best possible bullet you can find ! IMHO !

Mohawk · « **Reply #63 on:** April 15, 2008, 03:29:29 AM »

Whether it be a mugger against a citizen or a felon on a traffic stop, any fight that is kept at very close quarters is a loss for everyone. What I meant by an unloaded gun was if it is more plausible to retreat than immediately draw your weapon, then retreat. If your opponent's weapon is drawn and yours isn't at arms reach distance then "game over", even for armed citizens. You would very rarely get that "one shot" off and if you did that would be enough time for your assailant to empty a cylinder or magazine. I am just trying to demonstrate that having a gun should not give a false sense of security to anyone and that training for citizens is just as important when contronted with assailants. Creating distance(running away) and finding cover, which gives you time a access your weapon, is more important than any characteristic of an actual firearm and load.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #64 on:** April 15, 2008, 07:49:23 AM »

SORRY! , I disagree at arms length there are ways to disarm a threat ! Indeed if you give up you are dead and maybe if you try you will die but i will go down trying - its just my nature .

Mohawk · « **Reply #65 on:** April 15, 2008, 10:10:37 AM »

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree but I wouldn't call finding cover and or creating distance "giving up". An armed person is quite formidable when cover is obtained. Few criminals will hang around to contend with that. If you wish to try and disarm an armed subject that has a gun pointed at you at close range then feel free. I don't recommend it.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #66 on:** April 16, 2008, 01:17:47 AM »

Well i have had the unfortunate opportunity to to so in an area where cover was not possible . And yes i had training in doing so . I can assure you that cover would have been welcome but it did not exist !
As always it is best to train for worst case . I also have no problem admitting that i was lucky and the tables could have been turned .
We don't disagree i just point out that all should take their training and attitude toward surviving to as high a level as possible . Cover may not be there so then what do you do ? Don't give up !
the city i live in is a true gun crime area . many years we have been in the top 5 for murder rates . This i am sure has caused me to have the views i have .

kevthebassman · « **Reply #67 on:** April 16, 2008, 01:44:15 PM »

Movement is good when there is no cover. They teach the SWAT and special forces guys to present a moving target.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #68 on:** April 17, 2008, 01:13:25 AM »

That's great they teach that to anyone that deals with threats . but at arms length it may be wise to go on the offensive !
guess i just hate to see only one option stated

SharonAnne · « **Reply #69 on:** May 19, 2008, 08:59:19 PM »

why pick a 15 shot 9mm or an 8 shot 45. why not a 15 shot 45acp, the para ordnance p14-45. 14 in the mag,one in the chamber.

teddy12b · « **Reply #70 on:** May 20, 2008, 01:45:33 AM »

Quote from: SharonAnne on May 19, 2008, 08:59:19 PM

why pick a 15 shot 9mm or an 8 shot 45. why not a 15 shot 45acp, the para ordnance p14-45. 14 in the mag,one in the chamber.

Makes a great point. I used to have a P-14 and they are a fine handgun. I sold it when $$ got tight and then picked up a 4" XD 45acp. I have a lot of days when I miss my old P-14.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #71 on:** May 20, 2008, 02:05:55 AM »

I have a para . nice gun heavy . not as easy to carry as a S&W mod. 38 or a Colt defender .
Lots of ammo in a gun can be comforting but if one thinks they can stand in harms way and unload 15 rounds with out drawing fire they might want to reconsider .

teddy12b · « **Reply #72 on:** May 20, 2008, 02:31:24 AM »

I think there are two big items that add confidence in a persons gun: 1) Shooting the big bullets like 45acp and 2.) Having a lot of ammo in the mag. Having said that it all comes down to how it gets used. Everyone knows that 15 missed shots don't add up to one well aimed shot. Well after I sold my P-14 I got my XD because it's smaller and can fit in my back pocket. There's no one gun that's perfect in every way and I think the trick is to have something you can shoot well. Sometimes I keep my 357 revolver by the bed instead of the xd just because. In any event I really hope all this talk just stays as talk and nobody ever has to pull out a gun in the middle of the night in their own home.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #73 on:** May 20, 2008, 03:50:04 AM »

The ability and willingness of the user far out weigh equipment .
you can't miss fast enough to win a fight . IMHO !

SharonAnne · « **Reply #74 on:** May 20, 2008, 06:13:51 AM »

I was simply addressing the opening of this thread. 9mm W/15 rds or .45 W/8. With the Para you have 15-.45s. Any assumptions you make about standing still are your business. Once again you go off topic.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #75 on:** May 20, 2008, 10:16:21 AM »

SharonAnne , I hate to bust your bubble but every post is not for your benefit only !
Read what i wrote and maybe you will notice i addressed the weight issue of high cap. 45's a real issue . Like you said the ? was about alot of small bullets vs. a few big bullets , was your reply any less off base ?
If you don't care for what i post refrain from reading it ! If you after being married to a English teacher find my grammar not to your liking then don't read it ! ITS just that simple !
That's the way I treat your post !
Like i said i have a Para and am well aware of how many bullets it holds 11 or 15 depending on mag. !

in keeping with the topic big bullets , with spare mags.might be good ! ( spread the weight )

SharonAnne · « **Reply #76 on:** May 20, 2008, 11:04:59 AM »

what you think you write, and what you actually write bear little in common.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #77 on:** May 21, 2008, 01:18:19 AM »

HA !

jhm · « **Reply #78 on:** May 21, 2008, 02:51:30 AM »

Abt. 4 years I posted about re-qualifing and stated ALL the men showed up with their Hi Cap Paras/ rugers / smiths in 45acp and 40 cal even a large 10mm. the BEST shot there was a young lady with her Kel-tec 32 acp. She SMOKED every person there including me and I am no expert by no means BTW I was shooting a Smith Mod. 39, I have said many times that most people carry a handgun LARGER in weight and Caliber than they can Handle. JIM

SharonAnne · « **Reply #79 on:** May 21, 2008, 09:19:14 AM »

jhm, qualifying for what?

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #80 on:** May 21, 2008, 04:49:44 PM »

a new word.. what do jhm spell..i aint getting any where near yalls fuss..
and i guess i ll never know as im getting sleepy.

jhm · « **Reply #81 on:** May 22, 2008, 02:49:26 AM »

Sharon we were re-qualifing for CCW licenses we had to every 4 yrs. it has now been changed to a 5 yr. license and you must re-qualify at a certified range. JIM and slim the JHM hapen to be my initials and I do have cuff links/shirts/and a lighter with those initials on them also, nothing of any great importance. Jim

SharonAnne · « **Reply #82 on:** May 22, 2008, 07:17:42 AM »

thank you

lspen · « **Reply #83 on:** July 03, 2008, 01:42:15 PM »

I know my friend shot a subject once in the chest center mass with .45 while on duty at 10-15 feet. It did not knock the 145 lb guy down and did not stop him. One more round again center mass and the subject stopped then crumpled to the ground. Just FYI unless your shooting a .12 gauge or maybe a .44 or .50 cal. It probably is not going to knock em down. In my opinion and US military also, the .9mm will do fine. maybe more bullets is not such a bad idea. Look at the pics of the guy that ambushed some cops with a .45. They shot him full of holes with .40's .223 and slugs, he ripped off a full mag reloaded and kept going. The pics I saw showed an xray of his body / he died but only after bleeding out.

FYI Nuestra Familia is rolling strapped in sac yolo area to you other L.E We just lost one of ours to one of them

williamlayton · « **Reply #84 on:** July 04, 2008, 02:57:59 AM »

I am in severe disagreement that the military armory guys have a clue as too what they are doing.
If one will notice what the boys behind the hunt carry you will find more .45 cal pistols than 9mm and that for a great reason---it works better in close quarters.
In a street fight you best have a rifle.
The 9mm was a political decision as well as a logistics decision--those in the know objected plenty--without a desk jockey listening or taking heed.
Now I often can be found with a .38 super or a 9x23 but these are simply better than a 9mm in a confrontation.
The 9mm takes GOOD hits too be effective. The .45 takes good hits also but a bad hit wit a .45 is simply more effective in stopping than a 9mm.
IMO and the opinion of many, many others. Why does one not consider why it was adopted, the .45, that is, in the first place. We were using a .38 before which is not too shy of a modern 9mm.
Blessings

Savage · « **Reply #85 on:** July 05, 2008, 01:21:11 AM »

I posted earlier in this thread stating that I like a little of both stopping power, (Such as it is with handguns!) and capacity. I keep the Glock 22 on my night stand with a light and 15+1 Golden Sabers in it. I think it covers both requirements pretty well. I consider it too large and heavy for EDC. For that I confess to carrying a Kel Tec .380. It has little of either virtues. Sometimes carry an Officers size 1911 or a Glock 36 in .45acp if I feel the need. If I had to defend myself with a handgun, I want to make the biggest hole possible. That is more important to me than capacity of the gun. If I'm carrying a smaller caliber in something that size, I want as much capacity as I can get! There is no absolute answer to the question posed by the OP.
Savage

PaulS · « **Reply #86 on:** July 05, 2008, 06:04:55 PM »

I wish it were as easy as a few big bullets or lots of small bullets. The question is asking for opinions and what that comes down to is the shooter's perspective. I will always maintain that the best gun for self defense is the one that you are the most comfortable and competent with. It really doesn't matter if you shoot an attacker through the eye with a 22 rimfire or through the chest with a 460. If you can't hit what you shoot at then odds are that you are not going to survive.
Look at the statistics about the distance and the number of rounds are exchanged in a typical self-defense encounter. I doubt that the difference between a revolver with six rounds and a 45 ACP with 10 rounds is ever going to determine the outcome of a gunfight at under seven yards. If you get more than two rounds off then you are probably shooting at a target that is running away... not a good choice - legally. If you are not trained to take appropriate action when confronted by an armed assailant you are likely to be injured or dead. The caliber that you carry is not going to mean anything under those conditions. It comes down to training and familiarity with your gun and paying constant attention to what is going on around you at all times.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #87 on:** July 09, 2008, 07:49:16 AM »

at 7 yards , moving target , in a gun fight with someone shooting back . I would rather have a 460 and aim for center chest than a 22 trying to hit a moving eye !
BUT THAT"S JUST ME .

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #88 on:** July 09, 2008, 04:00:16 PM »

Let me end this.
Pick a bullet with the highest one shot stop you can. In the 9mm you own it's around 92 in the 45 it's around 96%. Just get good with the double tap and you have a 184% with the 9mm and 192% with the 45. If you need to throw a tripple and be in the low 200's.
As I remember the US military went to the 9mm as pressure from NATO. They had adopted all of our rifle and artillary as standard and it was a consession we made to please them and have ammo stocked for them when the Pinko commies invaded. The round was also touted as 5/8 the weight of the 45 handgun holding double the ammo and has little recoil. The added weight savings was good as you could carry 3 mags of 9mm and have the standard ammo load at 5/8 the weight allowing you to carry other items such as more rifle ammo, food, or water.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #89 on:** July 10, 2008, 08:19:04 AM »

Not much to add to Shoot's and Duckie's posts except the old addage "anything that needs to be shot once, needs to be shot twice." Or, and remember I'm an old wheel gun man, there are only two correct answers to the question "why was he shot six times?" They are:
I ran out of bullets, or
I didn't have time to reload!

Old, but they still get the point across!