Author Topic: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured  (Read 5759 times)

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Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2007, 07:24:31 AM »
Dan,
The detonation theory has been around at least since the 50s. It used to be blamed for the .38spl blowups of the day. The classic target load of the time was 3grs of Bullseye under a 148gr HBWC. It was theorized, that the small powder charge would be "flashed over" when the primer fired, moving the bullet before the powder ignited, causing over pressure. Several tried to duplicate the conditions without success. It has never been done, to my knowledge. My target load of the time (60s/70s) was 2.8grs pf BE with the 148 gr HBWC. Shot a wheelbarrow load of them thru a couple of old mdl 10s without problems. Looks like with all the technology available, someone could prove/disprove that theory once and for all!.
Savage

I think it was 2.7 grains of Bullseye?
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Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2007, 07:38:53 AM »
bigdog454 , you live anywhere near VA. ? i have had a similar problem with a powder trickle ! seems they are released in our area !
back to low charge blow ups , i have seen it stated that a low charge lays flat in the case and the primer fires across the top of the powder causing the force to the side of the case in an unequal distribution instead of starting at the bottom and building pressure as it consumes the powder . I have always heard a full case is better than a light load and when reloading you should seek a powder that gives the ballistics you want and fills the case as much as possible ( the reason for so many different types of powder ? )
as always GB had a good idea and i would like to add that a wooden dowel marked to correct depth can aid in checking uniform volume for those who have a hard time seeing into small neck cases .
and last , i load  IMR 4831 for the 25-06 , had a LB. from about a year ago that i finished last week . still had 40 cases left to fill so i opened a new container and filled the powder dump ( after clearing it of old 4831 ). I enjoy tight groups with this load and to get them i throw about a tenth grain low and trickle to exact load . well the first few charges were over 5 tenths or more low so i had to adjust for the new powder . now over the years ( 30 + ) this has never happened before at least not this big a spread .Had the spread been over instead of lower then my load would have been pass max.
With a powder like bullseye this could cause a problem if not caught !

I've shot virtually thousands of rounds loaded with Bullseye and never had anything like this happen? Back in the '60s they went through this argument thoughly and determind that the cause was double charging the cases!
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2007, 02:40:43 AM »
SB , that's what my point was extra powder got into the case .
I have seen a portion of a charge stick in the powder dump ( must be a problem as lyman put a tapper on theirs ) and other causes that effect powder measure . Most can be avoided by good reloading habits !
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Offline 44 Man

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2007, 03:21:22 AM »
I seem to remember Mike Ventrino's article on this.  I also seem to remember that under tests a double charge of bullseye or 231 was not enough to blow up the gun either, so back to the detonation theory.  In .45 colt or .44 special, the fastest powder I ever use is Unique.  And while I have loaded and shot many .38's with 3. gr of bullseye, I do prefer Unique or Universal in that also.  44 Man
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2007, 04:16:49 AM »

I've shot virtually thousands of rounds loaded with Bullseye and never had anything like this happen? Back in the '60s they went through this argument thoughly and determind that the cause was double charging the cases!
[/quote]
 
I don't believe the cause has ever been determined and because no other cause can be determined the reasoning then goes "well it must have been a double charge because we can't find any other reason". Just look at the posts here, we know nothing at all about how it happened and yet half the replies jump to the conclusion that it "must have been a double charge".  Blowups have occurred in instances where the gun could have withstood a double charge and also in instances where a double charge would not fit in the case. These odd blowups have a unique character to them, a much more violent shattering of the gun than what is normally seen with an overload.
  For many years powder makers have just refused to believe a light load could cause this severe damage. Within the past 25-30 years powder makers have started warning that with certain powder loads should not be reduced. That tells me they know more than they are saying.
  The reality is that we do not KNOW what actually happens inside a firearm. We have a working theory which seems to fit 99.999% of the time but there is still that one time in a million when circumstances don't fit the theory. So rather than admitting that the theory may be flawed it is just easier to say "human error", and, of course, no one can disprove a negative.
  I've never had a blowup but I have experienced a "pressure excursion" when loading a .308 rifle with 150 grain bullets and H-414 powder. This powder is too slow burning to produce optimum ballistics in the .308 with 150 grain bullets. Fifty grains is all one can get into the case and my Lyman manual shows that as producing only 37,500 CUP.  I was loading  only 48 grains when I experienced a blown primer with the case head so swollen and distorted as to look like a belted case. That occurred on my 28th shot with those loads, all cases loaded from the same powder measure.  Overload? The cartridge could not hold an overload. Wrong powder? How could one case out of 40 somehow get a different powder?
NO, it happened with what should have been a very mild load of H-414 powder.  We just don't really know what we think we know.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2007, 06:41:25 AM »
So, what's your thoughts on this, coyotejoe??? I think you guys are trying to second guess some very reputable laboratories, White lab for one. It's easy to sit in front of a computer and take shots at what has been researched very thoroughly in the past, kinda like second guessing the Warren Commission.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2007, 07:09:56 AM »
when one offers a THEORY he has admitted it is only an educated guess at best , supported but not proved . thus. no other explanation of failure is needed .

with regard to the 308 i offer a theory , weak case ! have had a few myself ! one with a factory round ! it happens .
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2007, 09:04:36 AM »
S.B.   My thoughts are that it is very hard to replicate a freak occurrence which only happens one time in a million. There may be odd factors which contribute, residue inside the case, bullet lube, powder clinging to the case walls in a very specific pattern, powder dust, powder under  the primer, weak primmer, extra strong primmer, temperature, etc. things which have to come together in a rare and specific pattern. The very process of testing in a precisely controlled environment may eliminate a random factor which contributes to the detonation. If it could be replicated in the lab then guns would blow up every time with certain loads  and we all would know not to use those loads and therefore, no need of testing. I worked a few years in a government testing lab and I can assure you lab results are never exactly repeatable and I doubt that any of them tested a million loads. Your analogy of the Warren Commission is indeed very applicable, start with a conclusion and work back from there to "prove" it.

SHOOTALL, a soft case head would be a good guess, except for the manner in which that happened. I first loaded five rounds each with 47, 48, 49 and 50 grains of H-414. All indications were of very mild pressure, just as the Lyman manual had predicted. The best group was with 48 grains so I returned to the bench and loaded the same 20 cases all with 48 grains of H-414. So the case which failed had previously been fired with a similar load which showed no signs of abnormality.
  Back in the fifties one could buy surplus 4831 powder very cheap and people often used it in applications for which it was not very suitable, such as reduced loads in the 30-06 and rifles were wrecked with reduced loads even though a case full and compressed produced mild pressures and the reduced load had been fired hundreds of times with no problem. That also could not be replicated in the lab so it was put down to reloader error, must have used the wrong powder. But it happened to some people who didn't even own any other powder.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2007, 10:50:51 AM »
i don't disagree , only offered a theory with the imfo. provided at first .
at best a guess , another theory i consider is primers , could one be too hot ? or the wrong primer got in a load how would the average reload-er know ?
maybe we should proof every gun ?
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Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2007, 11:17:03 AM »
Savage;

At the time I wrote to Mike it was just after he first published his article about the detonation of a Colt.  In his article, he indicated he had no idea how it happened and didn't seem to have a clue as to how an under charge could cause a burst chamber.  And just to clarify, the Navy did tests on their artillery using carefully measured charges and discovered that there was a point at which certain light loads exceeded the pressure curve of over charges! I don't recall where to find the information now, but it had to do with expansion in a near empty chamber, vs one in which a large part of the available volume was taken up with powder.

Dan

Offline Paladin

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2007, 03:25:10 PM »
my 2 cents, I think this is caused by the primers. they don't ignite the powder correctly. that is why some loads call for mag primers. my theory, weak primers.

Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2007, 10:24:17 PM »
I don't know how it happens but it surely does happen. I look at it like this; high explosives can not be used as a firearms propellant because it's velocity just shatters the vessel, ie. firearm. So OK, all smokeless firearms propellants are very closely related to high explosives. Many powders, which normally behave as a good propellant have a nitroglycerin content which, if it behaved like it's pure nitro component, would shatter the vessel.
  Good old black powder was wonderful stuff for mankind just learning to build firearms. It was so easy to work with, so forgiving of minor miscalculations and best of all, it was so predictable. You could be assured that more powder would produce more energy and more pressure inside the vessel in a degree pretty much proportional to the amount of powder used.
  With smokeless powders that all changed. The benefits of smokeless powder far out weighed its' serious defect of being able to be used safely and predictable, only within a rather narrow range of applications.
  Very light loads in big cartridge cases is where black powder ruled because smokeless propellants just don't work real well if the pressure is too low. Their behavior as a propellant becomes erratic when chamber pressures are low. Perhaps under some freak combinations of circumstance  they become so erratic as to behave like a high explosive.
  Now please stay tuned to the science fiction network, we'll be right back after these brief messages. ;D


The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2007, 01:22:24 AM »
I don't know how it happens but it surely does happen. I look at it like this; high explosives can not be used as a firearms propellant because it's velocity just shatters the vessel, ie. firearm. So OK, all smokeless firearms propellants are very closely related to high explosives. Many powders, which normally behave as a good propellant have a nitroglycerin content which, if it behaved like it's pure nitro component, would shatter the vessel.
  Good old black powder was wonderful stuff for mankind just learning to build firearms. It was so easy to work with, so forgiving of minor miscalculations and best of all, it was so predictable. You could be assured that more powder would produce more energy and more pressure inside the vessel in a degree pretty much proportional to the amount of powder used.
  With smokeless powders that all changed. The benefits of smokeless powder far out weighed its' serious defect of being able to be used safely and predictable, only within a rather narrow range of applications.
  Very light loads in big cartridge cases is where black powder ruled because smokeless propellants just don't work real well if the pressure is too low. Their behavior as a propellant becomes erratic when chamber pressures are low. Perhaps under some freak combinations of circumstance  they become so erratic as to behave like a high explosive.
  Now please stay tuned to the science fiction network, we'll be right back after these brief messages. ;D




Gun powder burns doesn't explode? Big difference between explosives and gun powder.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2007, 07:06:43 AM »
Quote
Gun powder burns doesn't explode? Big difference between explosives and gun powder.

Tis true, tis true. BUT at least the theory of detonation in firearms is that in some odd circumstances this progressive burning powder stops acting normally and EXPLODES. I'm not yet convinced that does or ever has happened since as of yet no one has ever been able to duplicate a detonation under controlled lab conditions. But that's not to say it can't or hasn't happened.

The fact is that when it does happen in the real world no one can really know the why and how of it. The gun is destroyed and the round that did it went with it so you can't back up in time and examine that round to see just what was REALLY inside it prior to the gun being destroyed.

Unless and until someone can duplicate the situation in a controlled lab type experiment we'll never know for certain the why and how of these destroyed guns. We can only sit around and speculate about it.


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Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2007, 08:09:42 AM »
Quote
Gun powder burns doesn't explode? Big difference between explosives and gun powder.

Tis true, tis true. BUT at least the theory of detonation in firearms is that in some odd circumstances this progressive burning powder stops acting normally and EXPLODES. I'm not yet convinced that does or ever has happened since as of yet no one has ever been able to duplicate a detonation under controlled lab conditions. But that's not to say it can't or hasn't happened.

The fact is that when it does happen in the real world no one can really know the why and how of it. The gun is destroyed and the round that did it went with it so you can't back up in time and examine that round to see just what was REALLY inside it prior to the gun being destroyed.

Unless and until someone can duplicate the situation in a controlled lab type experiment we'll never know for certain the why and how of these destroyed guns. We can only sit around and speculate about it.

Maybe in some weird, unexplored circumstances this happens, something like, ANFO won't pop in less than a 1&1/2" bore hole?
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2007, 08:14:24 AM »
sorta like hay burns , but put it in a barn let it dry out ,move it around a little and get the dust stirred up and boom at the first spark ! not burn !
there is an article about light charges with 4831 causing blow ups , no way to duplicate in the lab but it happens they say .
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2007, 01:12:20 AM »
There is a fine line between an explosion and a burn--some would maintain an oxygen ratio--I dunno, but, the hay story, grain elevator, rice elevator explosions are a key too understanding and in those cases oxygen plays the majority of effect.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2007, 03:09:38 AM »
with hay the distribution of particles might lead to a detonation vs. a fast burn as if the hay was in a pile .
This same condition may happen in a case with bullseye depending on how the gun / round had been handled before shooting . ( A THEORY ) at best .
And the fact that a lab can't reproduce an event does not mean it didn't happen it only means the lab was unable to reconstruct an event ! just as often a reconstruction in a lab is comprised only to lead to a totally different discovery !
IE. silly putty comes to mind along with IVORY soap !
but one true bit of fact comes to light - shooting can be dangerous and the shooter / re loader needs to be aware of this fact !
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Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2007, 03:49:35 AM »
This has turned into an interesting, if not sobering read.

I would like to touch on the burn verse explosion thing again. If a teaspoon of black-powder (read explosive) is lit with a match, it will flash off so quickly that it will take some of the hairs off your hand with it.
If a teaspoon of Smokeless powder (read propellant) is lit, it will just sit there and burn, perhaps lazily even.
If that same teaspoon of smokeless was burning in a jar and you put a lid on it, chances are very good that it would build up heat and pressure so fast that you would have an explosion before you got done tightening the lid.
This can be verified as all smokeless powder canisters are designed to burst under a said pressure. You will get a good fire but no explosion.

We know that the smokeless really does burn though and at different rates. Even though the gun goes Boom, evidence of un-burned powder flakes can be found in some types. The right primer can correct this and I really do like to choose the one that has been used in the loading data as said by the loading manual. For the handguns, I like the CCI 300 or CCI 350 primers and use the one that is recommended for the powder being used.
My Hornady manual list a 1,000fps load for a Colt Single Action in the .45 Colt using a 250gr bullet--win296--and a Fed 150 primer. Pressures were reported to be quite sane.
Could we then substitute a CCI 350 for that Fed 150 primer in that old buntline that they used? I dont think so...Not me anyway!

I am really leaning towards Dan Chamberlain's theory on detonation at this time. Too light of a powder charged coupled with the right (or wrong type of primer in this case) would cause the bullet to be pushed forward and held in check by the cylinder or barrel throat obstructing it before the fire in the case got hot enough to explode.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2007, 07:02:02 AM »
that's a good theory but suppose the grains of powder were spread so they flashed all at once instead of burning thru. the pile and the pressure spiked all at once ?

or suppose the make up of a portion of the powder didn't get coated with chemical to restrict its rate of burn ? or got too much ?
so many theory's so little proof , but interesting !
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Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2007, 07:50:23 AM »
Let's not forget, you take 90 grains of fffg black powder and put it in a barrel and seat the ball on top of it with no air space, and you get a nice loud boom and the ball goes out the barrel.  You take 70 grains of powder and put it in the same barrel and run the ball down the bore but leave an inch of air space between the powder and ball and you may very well get a damaged bore, even though the charge was lighter by far.  There is technically no difference theoretically.  Yes, black powder has a significantly faster burn rate, but most smokeless powders have a significantly steeper pressure curve.  A light load, equals excessive air space/expansion space.  There are a lot of things that haven't been duplicated in the lab, but we know about them and accept them as being certainly possible. 

Dan

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2007, 08:02:21 AM »
good model
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Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2007, 09:12:14 AM »
Let's not forget, you take 90 grains of fffg black powder and put it in a barrel and seat the ball on top of it with no air space, and you get a nice loud boom and the ball goes out the barrel.  You take 70 grains of powder and put it in the same barrel and run the ball down the bore but leave an inch of air space between the powder and ball and you may very well get a damaged bore, even though the charge was lighter by far.  There is technically no difference theoretically.  Yes, black powder has a significantly faster burn rate, but most smokeless powders have a significantly steeper pressure curve.  A light load, equals excessive air space/expansion space.  There are a lot of things that haven't been duplicated in the lab, but we know about them and accept them as being certainly possible. 

Dan
 

Black powder is rated as an explosive.
Early on in the S&Ws 500 history many were experiencing what was commonly thought to be detonation, if memory serves, even with factory rounds but, like has been stated earlier, I don't think it was ever proved?
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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2007, 10:45:24 AM »
S.B., dude, do you even read a post before you chime in on it? You certainly make no attempt to understand what was written.
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2007, 11:03:09 AM »
Any comparison of black and smokeless powders is actually apples to oranges?
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Offline Dan Chamberlain

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2007, 03:41:05 PM »
The comparison took into consideration a steeper pressure curve of smokeless, despite being a flammable solid vs an explosive.  The concept of less creating more is still valid, despite your dismissal.

Dan

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2007, 10:42:35 PM »
We still don't have the gun fixed, as of the last reporting.
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Offline BAGTIC

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2007, 05:14:44 PM »
Note that for a given cartridge the psi reading is always higher than the cup reading.

Not always. For some cartridges they come out the same.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2007, 05:22:36 PM »
The amount of air in a reduced charged case should not make any difference.

First the reduced charge means there is less powder (fuel) to start with so that should reduce pressures.

Second, the reduced charge means there is reduced charge density while should also reduce pressure.

Third, cartridges are not like gas engines where the fuel (gas) and oxydizer (air) are separate and must be mixed in proper proportions. Smokeless powder carries its own oxydizer and will burn in a vacuum or a container filled with inert gas.

Offline S.B.

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Re: Ruger Cylinder Ruptured
« Reply #59 on: December 14, 2007, 02:26:40 AM »
Instead of discussing a Ruger ruptured cylinder, this has turned into a debate on metalurgy and physics! Point of order,please?
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