Author Topic: problem with new Model Seven (Read 3815 times)

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #30 on:** February 08, 2008, 04:40:35 PM »

I am happy to hear it worked AAAAAAAAA OKKKKKKKK. Dale

jvs · « **Reply #31 on:** February 08, 2008, 10:24:19 PM »

If you got a whole new Barreled Action, then you should have a whole different Serial Number.

Keep that letter from Remington handy, you may have to prove that you are the owner of that rifle some day.

Hopefully, this will be the end of your Model 7 problems and you can get to finding out if you made a good buy. If anything, the Quality Control problems like this is Remingtons' worst problem of all. They just never learn. How something like this leaves the factory is beyond me. Where were the Q/C inspectors ?

As far as the time line for Remington to fix the problem, your waiting period was no longer, nor any shorter, than my experience with the repair facilities at Remington, which was also a Quality Control issue.

I think that as long as Remington fixed the problem, and all you have to gripe about is being without it for 2 months during the dead of winter... overall, it is a small price to pay.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #32 on:** February 09, 2008, 04:38:05 AM »

That was gonna be my question. Did you get another receiver or did they remill the one your had? Did they change serial numbers is what I'm asking? When they screwed up (destroyed or lost) my receiver and replaced it, they had to send the new one to my gun shop guy instead of direct to me because it was a "new" rifle.

jvs · « **Reply #33 on:** February 09, 2008, 07:53:12 AM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on February 09, 2008, 04:38:05 AM

That was gonna be my question. Did you get another receiver or did they remill the one your had? Did they change serial numbers is what I'm asking? When they screwed up (destroyed or lost) my receiver and replaced it, they had to send the new one to my gun shop guy instead of direct to me because it was a "new" rifle.

EXACTLY !

I was going to put it that way about the Gun Shop, Registration and Background check too, but I decided against it. I figured it was time to take the easy way out while it still makes a little sense and the Happy Ending is at hand.

Unless he FORGOT to mention the Gun Shop part, he didn't do anything with Remington and Fiction was the point of this story, which is ok too.

Remington sends new Barreled Actions to people, possibly FFL's, without proper registration and checks

Extremely unlikely !

My problem took a new barrel. Nothing changed as far as Serial Number goes. And it went through a Remington Service Center.

Graybeard · « **Reply #34 on:** February 09, 2008, 10:36:55 AM »

When you send a gun of any sort long gun or handgun back to the manufacturer directly as opposed to going thru an FFL to ship it they can return it directly to you even if they have to replace it with a new one with different serial number. Been there done that with a handgun and a rifle both. What procedures they must go thru I really dunno but nothing is required at your end when a replacement firearm is shipped to you to replace the one you shipped to the maker of that firearm.

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #35 on:** February 09, 2008, 12:37:19 PM »

That's good to know. Dale

jvs · « **Reply #36 on:** February 09, 2008, 01:57:54 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on February 09, 2008, 10:36:55 AM

When you send a gun of any sort long gun or handgun back to the manufacturer directly as opposed to going thru an FFL to ship it they can return it directly to you even if they have to replace it with a new one with different serial number. Been there done that with a handgun and a rifle both. What procedures they must go thru I really dunno but nothing is required at your end when a replacement firearm is shipped to you to replace the one you shipped to the maker of that firearm.

I'll be darn... Ya learn something new every day.

Apologies to bukfevr.

bukfevr · « **Reply #37 on:** February 13, 2008, 11:41:25 AM »

Apology accepted JVS. When I shipped the gun to Remington, I shipped it through the local sporting goods dealer which is FFL. When Remington returned it to me, they shipped it back to the store and I had to go pick it up. Yes, it is a new receiver and barrel with a new serial number. All this info is on the yellow sheet from Remington. And no, there's no fiction in this story. Just a little aggravation about not getting to hunt with it this fall. But, all is well now.

jvs · « **Reply #38 on:** February 14, 2008, 10:43:51 AM »

bukfevr,

Now that you dealt with Remingtons' Customer Service Dept., How would you grade the service you received on a Rifle that had a factory defect?

When I had a problem with my 673, I sent it back. And outside of the time involved, I thought Remington was reputable when it comes to standing behind their products and making good for their screw-ups. And the time involved is probably not a real gripe on my part since my rifle probably was not the only one in for repairs, or upgrades, or whatever. I really wasn't going to use mine last fall any way.

I just wanted it RIGHT.

I also posed this question to the Remington Service Center:

How do such obvious defects get off the shop floor and to the Shipping Dept. ?

A. Remingtons' Quality Control is nonexistent, and Man-Hours is all that matters.

B. The parts are manufactured off-site or over-seas.

C. Remington lost all of their old Machinists and now employ Monkees to run CNC machines.

D. Remington doesn't care about reputation because they have a Customer Service Dept. to deal with you.

beemanbeme · « **Reply #39 on:** February 15, 2008, 07:38:59 AM »

That ain't the way it worked with me. GB, do you have a FFL?

Graybeard · « **Reply #40 on:** February 15, 2008, 07:55:01 AM »

No I do not have an FFL.

I've had precisely THREE guns replaced by the manufacturer over the years. The first was a Remington 541-T heavy barrel bought for my wife's use. The barrel was loose in the action and just wouldn't group. It was taken to a local gunsmith who at the time was a Remington Factory authorized repair facility. He returned it to Remington who replaced the rifle at no cost. No paper work was required when I picked it up.

The other two were Taurus handguns returned by me directly to Taurus in FL via FEDEX on call tags issued by Taurus at no cost to me. Both new replacement handguns were returned to me by FEDEX and yes had different serial numbers than what I shipped and again no paperwork was required.

Just telling ya what I have experienced three times now.

flintlock · « **Reply #41 on:** February 15, 2008, 08:09:51 AM »

I returned a Ruger single action several years ago for the transfer bar update...Contacted them, they sent instructions and I shipped myself...

beemanbeme · « **Reply #42 on:** February 16, 2008, 08:06:08 AM »

Well, in my case, what was gonna be a simple rebarrel job with me shipping the rifle direct to Remington and them sending it direct back to me turned into a real love story. Somewhere along the line, my rifle got sent over to a outfit called "White Dog" that does contract work for Rem. They told me they couldn't do a Rem barrel but could do an aftermarket barrel for $$$. I wanted a Rem barrel and told them to send it back to Rem.
Then things got kinda hazy with a "you've got it; No we don't, you've got it" going on between White Dog and Rem. Finally, Rem said my rifle was lost or distroy ed and they would send me a new one free but they would have to send it to a FFL. Which they did.
The new one was such a POS that I spoke to the same supervisor (another reason to get names) and sent it back for a new barrel and this time they sent it direct back to me.
FYI: If you send a rifle to Rem and have adjusted the trigger or have an aftermarket trigger on the rifle, they will replace the trigger and charge you. In this case, I had adjusted the trigger and stoned the surfaces and so wasn't about to let Rem get their hands on it. So I sent them just the barrel and receiver and bolt. I figured they could use a house trigger to test fire the rifle. When I got the replacement back, it had a trigger. I kept it figuring it was small payment for the hassle.

jvs · « **Reply #43 on:** February 16, 2008, 08:27:03 AM »

Anytime you are responsible for any changes in a production firearm, it will be considered to be a unsafe modification of the original design so as to negate any implied or written warranty. If that gun is ever involved in any incident and Remington or any other manufacturer is called into court, they will not be held liable for any modifications done by a Sh*thouse Gunsmith. However, if all work done to any particular gun is done by the manufacturer, it is covered by Tort law and the warranty.

And that includes trigger jobs.

Remington is not the only manufacturer that takes a dim view of outside smith work done to their guns. Which is why it is important that any warranty work be done by the maker and the service letter be kept as long as you own the gun, with a copy being given to any future used buyer.

I am glad things worked out for the original poster of this thread, but I would keep that Remington service letter forever.

As far as recieving a whole different Serial Number...

That is way over my head. I guess it is better than forking over another $30 or so for another background check on what amounts to be the same purchase.

Graybeard · « **Reply #44 on:** February 16, 2008, 11:30:17 AM »

The fact the gun was lost and thus still out there "somewhere" is likely the reason for the FFL having to be involved.

bukfevr · « **Reply #45 on:** February 17, 2008, 04:01:31 AM »

This was the second rifle I have had to send back to the manufacturer. The first one was a Marlin 917V. In both cases I feel like I received service that was perfectly adequate. This was the first time dealing with Remington customer service, except for part orders, and I have to say I am completely satisfied. I had a problem and they made it right. I can't ask for more. As for the time frame, I'm sure they were quite busy with it being hunting season. What has got me puzzled is how this gun got out of the factory like that. If they made one with a receiver milled wrong, then it seems that alot of them that were made in the same run would be wrong. I could be wrong, as I guess it's possible that someone didn't seat the receiver in the lathe properly on just one. As for the paperwork that shows the replacement serial number, it has been safely tucked away. And I agree with Graybeard, although this gun WAS shipped back to a FFL dealer and I had to pick it up, that was it. No paperwork was required. The yellow sheet from Remington states the original serial number has been replaced with a new one, and lists both numbers.

Graybeard · « **Reply #46 on:** February 17, 2008, 08:37:45 AM »

How in the world a CNC operation which I'm sure is how Remington does it machined a receiver wrong is a mystery to me that they did seems obvious since they replaced it saying so. I too would think if one got out wrong more than one likely did. I guess there is no way to be sure however. I still wish you'd taken photos so we could see just what it did look like as compared to what it should have looked like.

Are there any readily obvious visual differences you can tell between the one you have now and the one you returned? Are is the difference too subtle to really see with the eye?

bukfevr · « **Reply #47 on:** February 17, 2008, 08:54:28 AM »

Graybeard, I sure wish I would have taken pics of that receiver too. I could have installed the scope bases and put a straightedge across the top of them and took pics so you could see what the problem was. As far as looks, the original rifle looked perfect. The only way to tell it had a problem was to mount the bases on it. Then with the straightedge, the problem was easily seen. I can tell no visual difference between the two, but when I mounted the scope on the new one, it was exactly the way it was suppose to be. You're right I guess there's no way to tell if any more were milled wrong, but I'd sure like to know. Just for curiosity's sake. Oh well, it's good now and I really think I'll like this rifle as a carry gun for deer. Just got that handy feel to it.

Graybeard · « **Reply #48 on:** February 17, 2008, 09:06:13 AM »

For what it's worth maching errors seem to be becoming more not less common on guns in general that I have purchased.

I bought a Ruger 77-17 to try the new .17HMR and it just was not accurate enough to justify keeping it. So I went on a quest for a replacement. I forget now the order in which I bought the replacements but they were the Marlin and Savage heavy barrel guns so chambered and then a CZ.

The Marlin as I recall had such a major error in machine work that not even the Burris Signature rings with plus and minus 20s in both rings would get it to hit to POA. The Savage was better in that regard but not by much and required a lot of Signature ring offset to hit near POA and the wood on the stock felt like a 2x4 in my hands. The CZ I never got around to shooting and amazingly the fellow I sold it to also a GBO member let it go without firing it as well.

Along about that same time frame or a bit prior to it I bought a TC semiauto .22LR and not even with the signature rings and plus/minus 20s in both rings could I get it to hit to POA.

That is just ridiculous to find that many guns in such a short time machined so badly that they needed that level of correction to even get close to POA.

I find from time to time I need to use the Signature rings and offset inserts on Remington rifles and I think my newest M7 CDL has some but not all that much in the rings to better center the scope adjustment rather than using too much of the scope's ability to center the POI.

You'd think the CNC machinery used now could do better.

jvs · « **Reply #49 on:** February 17, 2008, 12:49:09 PM »

A CNC machining center will only do what they are programmed to do. So either the program was wrong or the base specifications have changed and the Base makers have not caught up with those changes. It could be that Remington is taking more metal off, but not likely.

If the Quality Control Inspection process is based on a CNC program that is wrong, then Quality Control will never catch it. It could be that the program that doesn't match the blueprints. I wouldn't doubt that there are alot more just like it out there.

Since it is the receiver that has the mistake, this error could be very expensive for Remington since the same receiver could be used for alot of different calibers. Hopefully it was only one machining center and not the same program in the whole dept.

Tallwalker · « **Reply #50 on:** March 04, 2009, 01:50:31 AM »

A couple of things can happen when a part is machined with a CNC. First, as cutters are sharpened they get smaller, and the machine is programmed to compensate for that. If a cutter that has been sharpened many times is replaced with a new one, or vise versa as might have happened in this case, a few parts can be machined before the error is caught. Not all parts are gaged usually, but are gaged in some frequency that is related to the "risk" of that operation. Let's say that 1 in 25 parts gets gaged. If one is found bad, the other 24 should be rechecked too, but sometimes that doesn't happen, or one gets missed. Usually though the first part after a cutter change is always checked......... unless the cutter change came at a shift change, or operator change, etc., and then it could be missed. The other thing that can happen is that the part itself might not have been fully seated in the holding fixture, and that would cause the cuts to be wrong....... Computers don't fix everything.

Edit: Oops, didn't mean to respond to such an old post........ found it in a search for something else...... sorry.

TLARbb · « **Reply #51 on:** April 11, 2009, 10:35:05 AM »

Sounds like they went out of their way to fix your rifle. Have you shot it yet? What do you think of it now?

EJ

Tallwalker · « **Reply #52 on:** April 12, 2009, 02:59:59 AM »

When a manufacturer decicdes to replace a customer's gun with a new one bearing a new serial number, the old serial number is scrapped both physically from the old gun, and through the BATF, and record of the new firearm passing to the customer is registered with the BATF so they have a record that is the gun that replaced the one you had. That is why no paperwork is required from you when you receive a new serial number back from the manufacturer.