Oversized Bullets

[tn_junk]

I just tried to load some bullets cast out of a new Lee 6 cavity .358 Tumble Lubed 158 Grain SWC. The bullets are dropping out of the mould at .362/363 dia.
I am casting out of old chilled shot, dropping the bullets from the mould into iced salt water. Tried to size them through the Lee .358 sizing die using the Lee lube,  and the 10th bullet stuck, and I am going to have to drill it out.
I have cast, loaded and shot about 200 bullets out of my Lee double cavity mould with no problems. Just measured some of them and they are .358/.359 dia.
Did I do something dumb, or do I need to send the mould to Lee? I have tried to measure the cavities, but don't have any indicator points small enough to get in the grooves.

Thanks

alan

[Nobade]

Don't size them. Make up a dummy round with one and see if it chambers. If it does without problems, just lube load and shoot. You may want to make or buy a larger expander plug for your die so you don't have excessive neck tension. With my own 38 and 357 ammo, I don't resize the brass - just bell it slightly, load and use a taper crimp die to hold the bullet in place. Most of the time I don't run enough pressure to make resizing necessary and all it does is work the brass more.

[tn_junk]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Load chambers in my .357 MAX Handi, but not in my Ruger GP100 (it will go in the cylinder, but is EXTREMELY tight). Haven't slugged the barrel on the Handi yet, and not real comfortable shooting a .362/.363 dia bullet until I do.


alan

[blue roan]

Dilute your alloy with pure lead to get the size into normal ranges.  High antimony will give you oversized bullets.  I bought some "foundry type/monotype" that gave almost .005 oversized bullets out of an elderly Lyman mould I'd had no previous problems with.  Plus the bullets were "harder than wood pecker lips!"  You couldn't put much of a mark on them with a knife; a thumbnail to test was a joke.  I sold the 200 pounds I had (bad move--should have kept it to alloy.) to a friend who like hard cast.  The hard stuff will lead your guns worse than softer alloys.

I don't know about the LEE push thru sizer, but my Star lubri-sizer needs an already lubed bullet run through the die periodically.  Come to think of it, almost everything in life can use a little greasing.

[tn_junk]

I had a friend who has a Lee hardness tester test one of these bullets and he said it was 32 Brinell. Guess dropping them right out of the mould into EXTREMELY cold saltwater (probably about 30 degrees F) really hardened them up.
I am going to cast some and just drop them out onto an old fiberglass blanket like I always do my Muzzle Loader bullets and see what size they are.

Thanks

p.s. May just have to find myself one of those Lee Hardness Testers. Fun Toy.

[blue roan]

The only thing you can drop those bullets in to soften them is molten lead!  The antimony in the chilled shot, with some tin,  is a better hardening agent than straight tin.  I'm using a BN 10 in 38 and 44 specials, with 4.0 and 5.0 Titegroup loads respectively...and no leading in Vaqueros, Bisleys and Blackhawks.  At 32 BN, these would be h--- on barrels. 

Quick experiment:  Put one on a flat hard surface...like an anvil or back portion of a vise....wear safety glasses, etc. and vigorously hit it with a 4 pound hammer.  It may shatter!  The IPSC types were running this hardness range bullets in the early days of 38 Supers and exotic 9mm types for Unlimited class guns....several reported getting brittle bullets.

I've got a SAECO lead tester and a CABINE TREE combination lead tester/run-out tester, but I think I'd like one of Veral's LBT testers.  Everyone says it is is the best and easiest to use.  (I bought one of his 433 300 grain WFN moulds for $20! at the Quigley rifle shoot last year and it is super.  I'd rate it right up with my 20+ year old 6 cavity Hensley & Gibbs 68 mould.)  He sure knows how to make a quality product.  Get a copy of his book too!

OFF TOPIC  Money is tight, especially for you younger guys with young children...I'm 59.  But when you get a chance to get books by John Taffin or Mike Venturino or Veral Smith, do two things.  Get two copies--one to read and one to save on the book shelves.  And get it signed or even autographed to you.  I screwed up on Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton.

[tn_junk]

OFF TOPIC  Money is tight, especially for you younger guys with young children...I'm 59.  But when you get a chance to get books by John Taffin or Mike Venturino or Veral Smith, do two things.  Get two copies--one to read and one to save on the book shelves.  And get it signed or even autographed to you.  I screwed up on Bill Jordan and Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton.

The bullets are back in the melter mixed with equal amounts of pure lead. Will not drop them in water this time.
And I WILL take your advice on the books.

alan

p.s. I ain't young. Turned 50 this year.

[blhof]

You also might try heating the sizer slightly and tapping the stuck slug back down.  If it works try polishing the sizer with stainless grit sold in hardware stores, stainless is a grit size; use a Dremel type tool or high speed dril and a buffer made from a rod wrapped with a cotton cloth.  My Lee sizer stuck with many hard bullets and was hard to push with all, until I polished it.  Pushes out 358; which is what I use and sizes up all my alloys including chilled shot with ease.  Check Veral's site for detailed polishing instructions.

[BAGTIC]

I am casting out of old chilled shot, dropping the bullets from the mould into iced salt water.
Thanks

alan

Why salt water? The salt will leave a residue that will eventually encourage corrosion. Do you clean your guns with salt water too?

[tn_junk]

The salt in the water lowers the freezing point, thus resulting in colder water and harder bullets.
And I happen to have enough sense to thoroughly clean the bullets before I lube them.

alan

[Graybeard]

You're kidding yourself if you think lowering the temperature of the water a few degrees is going to make the bullets harder. You are also kidding yourself if you think they NEED to be harder. They don't.

If you're having problems with them sticking in the Lee sizer try putting a bit of the lube on them first before sizing and then again after sizing and you'll find they will size much easier and work better in your gun.

[tn_junk]

You're kidding yourself if you think lowering the temperature of the water a few degrees is going to make the bullets harder. You are also kidding yourself if you think they NEED to be harder. They don't.

If you're having problems with them sticking in the Lee sizer try putting a bit of the lube on them first before sizing and then again after sizing and you'll find they will size much easier and work better in your gun.

Actually, lowering the water temp may make the bullets slightly harder as it will "freeze" the phase transition at a slightly harder point (At least it would in steel, where all of my experience is. You may be 100% right about lead.).
But I agree we are probably only talking about fractions of a point in hardness at best.
As for the "need" to make them harder, I am sure you are correct. It's just that I am a tinkerer and really like to mess with stuff and see what happens.
I fired about 200 rounds in my GP100 last night and found no leading with bullets I cast out of wheel weight and just dropped onto a fiberglass blanket. These were lubed with a top secret lube and sized easily at .358 dia. These were loaded at 38spcl pressures.

Thanks for your input. I really appreciate the fact that ya'll are willing to share your wisdom.

alan

[Lead pot]

I would use a little caution with a bullet .005 over the bore diameter in a hand gun, with a brinell of 32, you might end up with a hand full of scrap iron, maybe worse.
It don't take much to get very high pressure spikes using the fast pistol powder.

I keep reading the hard alloy gets bigger then the soft, I kinda scratch my head on that.
I find just the opposite, but then I very seldom cast harder then 1/20 alloy. But this morning I did pull out some of my bullets for the .50-90 Sharps that just cast a few days ago and I did cast 20 for a test run that I cast with #2 Lyman alloy with a mix of 4lbs line-0-type a 1 pound of 50/50 solder and 5 pounds of lead.
A bullet cast with that alloy has a diameter of .5093" and weighs 695 grains.
And a bullet cast with 1/30 tin lead has a diameter of .5111" at 718 grains. dropped from the same mould and measured with a certified micrometer not a $30. Caliper.

Kurt

[tn_junk]

I would use a little caution with a bullet .005 over the bore diameter in a hand gun, with a brinell of 32, you might end up with a hand full of scrap iron, maybe worse.
It don't take much to get very high pressure spikes using the fast pistol powder.

I keep reading the hard alloy gets bigger then the soft, I kinda scratch my head on that.
I find just the opposite, but then I very seldom cast harder then 1/20 alloy. But this morning I did pull out some of my bullets for the .50-90 Sharps that just cast a few days ago and I did cast 20 for a test run that I cast with #2 Lyman alloy with a mix of 4lbs line-0-type a 1 pound of 50/50 solder and 5 pounds of lead.
A bullet cast with that alloy has a diameter of .5093" and weighs 695 grains.
And a bullet cast with 1/30 tin lead has a diameter of .5111" at 718 grains. dropped from the same mould and measured with a certified micrometer not a $30. Caliper.

Kurt

I didn't shoot the oversized bullets, I melted them back down.
And they were measured with a very nice set of Starret 0-1" mics, not a cheap caliper.
The bullets I dropped this morning from the same mold, with straight wheel weights, measured .359/.360 diameter, and they were .001 out of round.
They sized up very nicely to .3582 thru the Lee sizer.

alan

[Lead pot]

Good Alan, sounds like your on your way.

Kurt

[Cat Whisperer]

...
alan

p.s. I ain't young. Turned 50 this year.

HEY!  I turned 60 this year and I AM YOUNG!

But keep asking, the answers are here for the asiking!

Life is good.  As one fellow says, enjoying life - one round at a time!

[Sir Charles deMoutonBlack]

This issue arose on another board, The Open Range, I think.  With the LEE 6 cavity mould, you should not hold the sprue cutter handle when casting.  It springs the mould halves apart just enough to cause problems.  Further, it seem that LEE generally ships moulds at the top of the allowed tolerance

[tn_junk]

This issue arose on another board, The Open Range, I think.  With the LEE 6 cavity mould, you should not hold the sprue cutter handle when casting.  It springs the mould halves apart just enough to cause problems.  Further, it seem that LEE generally ships moulds at the top of the allowed tolerance

Thanks for that info. Could very well be a part of my problem as the parting line looked larger than I have seen on my other Lee moulds.
I'll pay close attention to that.

alan

[toysoldier]

There's a big difference between hardening steel and hardening non-ferrous metals. I seem to recall reading about hardening cast bullets by putting them in a very hot oven, then letting them cool very slowly. In shot towers, molten lead was poured through screens to break it into droplets which, due to surface tension, became spherical. The drop ended in a water tank, but it was more to keep the shot spherical than to harden it.

You soften copper by heating and quenching. Working it (by bending or hammering) hardens it.

Your brine-quenching process sounds like something you might have picked up from knifemaking. Smiths have quenched blades in a variety of solutions, including salt water and urine, in a quest for the perfect treatment. Mostly it's a holdover from the days of alchemy.

[tn_junk]

There's a big difference between hardening steel and hardening non-ferrous metals. I seem to recall reading about hardening cast bullets by putting them in a very hot oven, then letting them cool very slowly. In shot towers, molten lead was poured through screens to break it into droplets which, due to surface tension, became spherical. The drop ended in a water tank, but it was more to keep the shot spherical than to harden it.

You soften copper by heating and quenching. Working it (by bending or hammering) hardens it.

Your brine-quenching process sounds like something you might have picked up from knifemaking. Smiths have quenched blades in a variety of solutions, including salt water and urine, in a quest for the perfect treatment. Mostly it's a holdover from the days of alchemy.

I spent 25 years working in the engineering side of hard metal manufacture and toolmaking, so all of my experience as you have noticed is with ferrous metals. I did an experiment last week, cast bullets and dropped some out onto a fiberglass mat and others into chilled salt water. Using neighbors Lee hardness tester (I got to get one of those) the ones dropped onto the mat were 12 brn and the ones dropped in chilled salt water 26. So there is a difference. This was the same chilled shot I was having problems with earlier.

alan

[Lloyd Smale]

first id about bet your problem is the mold not closing properly. Second is as long as they funtion in your gun they will be fine. Even lead at 32bhn is A LOT softer then copper and shouldnt cause any pressure problems. third is ive done alot of experimenting with water dropped bullets. Ill tell you first that im not a fan of them as they tend to fracture more on impact then bullets of the same hardness that got there hardness from alloying. Ive never had a straight linotype bullet fracture in penetration testing (severe penetraion testing) at under 1800 fps and have had many water dropped  bullets fail. Its a good way to make hard bullets if you dont have access to lineotype or antimony though. Also ive done alot of testing with different water temps. Everything from water that has sat out in the barn in the summer that is probably 80 degrees to water that sat out in the winter that ive had to bust the top layer of ice off it to use it and find very liittle differnce in hardness from bullets that came out of both. I have three hardness testers of different manufactures and although none of them are scientific and for the most part are only good for comaparing alloys not for marking exact hardness on bullet batches none showed significant gains with very cold water and if you left the bullets sit for a couple weeks what differences you had seem to go away anyway. Its tough to do a fair comparison of this though as the biggest variable as to how hard your water dropped bullets are going to be is the temp of the bullet when it hits the water and thats another problem i have with water dropping. Its just to inconsistant in drop temps and bullets will vary in hardness because of it. Ive never got the accuracy out of water dropped bullets that i got out of alloyed bullets. A much better way to do it is oven tempering. It is alot more time consuming but gives consistant results and by controling your temp with a little experimenting you can control how hard your bullets are and keep them from getting so hard that they fracture. Ive found that once you get to about 20bhn it doest help you much with leading ect to go harder and your actually hurting yourself as your getting to brittle. With oven heating and some experiementing you can make 20 bhn bullets out of softer alloy that hold together almost as well as alloyed bullets and shoot as well too.

[tn_junk]

Lloyd;

I really appreciate your (and others) willingness to share your knowledge with me. I have a LOT to learn about casting, and I know that my metallurgy experience with the ferrous and hardmetal alloys will mean little in this. I have quite a bit of Linotype and wheel weight to play with, and will see what happens.

Thanks

alan