Author Topic: Boy i'm pissed ( Up Date ) (Read 1685 times)

stimpylu32 · « **on:** November 25, 2007, 04:43:19 AM »

Got ahold of my Ins. guy the other day to up-grade my ins on my guns , gave him a list of them with ser #s and pics , well this morning i get a call from one of the local PD dics. saying that he got a fax from my ins guy stating that one of the guns on my list is stolen .

Turns out that his company did a claim for a guy back in 02 from Pa. that had over 25 guns taken from his house and this is one of them . so the cop comes to the house and asks if i still have the gun and he needs to take it till that can work this out .

Ok , so i get the gun , make him show me a copy of the org. report and have him give me a recept for it and he is on his marry way , first thing in the AM i'm calling my lawyer to cover my butt as the gun was bought from a local FFL dealer and he still has the paper work to prove that i did not steel it .

Worst part is that it is my favorate handgun - my 41 GNR . Just hope that i can get it back as the ins company has already paid off on the claim .

stimpy

Dee · « **Reply #1 on:** November 25, 2007, 04:56:12 AM »

Buying used guns can be hazardous, but it would seem to me, that the gun dealer should have had the the serial number ran before he sold it. I would be mad at HIM, and would want HIM to refund or REPLACE the gun in it's IDENTICAL model and brand! Hmmmmm

beemanbeme · « **Reply #2 on:** November 25, 2007, 05:00:06 AM »

They have to run it and have a okay number on the yellow sheet. What about that??? Or is that okay number about you?

sdb777 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 25, 2007, 05:08:31 AM »

Sounds like the insurance company has a great data base! Kind of like a national registry thing of some sort? All those years ago a claim was paid to another individual on a serial number. And they still have that info? Seems to be a little fishy(insurance people with records that good......

Scott (good luck) B

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #4 on:** November 25, 2007, 05:15:26 AM »

I see one of two things happening here. You may get the gun back but you may have to pay the insurance company. That would really stink seeing as you already paid for it once. The second thing that could happen is the original owner gets it back and he has to pay the insurance company back the money they gave him. Either way the insurance co. gets paid. I would be really pissed at the FFL. That gun should have been run prior to your possession. Dale

30-06man · « **Reply #5 on:** November 25, 2007, 05:46:19 AM »

Lawsuit against gun shop. They probably over looked it, I would wonder how many of my others guns are done that way.

Foggy · « **Reply #6 on:** November 25, 2007, 06:00:37 AM »

You bought the gun in good faith, your golden you did no wrong. even here on GBO you pick it up from a FFL so you followed the law, there is a chain of cusadity (wish I could spell) same thing happened to a friend of mine in AZ yyears back the shop got him a new gun.

a gun , motor vehicle , bicycle even a lawn mower with a seriial number. once in NCIC always in NCIC. it's funny it was not caught the first time the insurece guy added it to the policy

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 25, 2007, 06:30:42 AM »

Sorry to hear that Stimpy, I hope the guy that stole it gets caught up in this, at least there will be some satisfaction out of it.

Tim

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 25, 2007, 06:35:58 AM »

If nothing else i did do a few things right ,

(1) had mama stay with the cop while i went to get the gun ( so he did not have axcess to the rest of my guns ) .

(2) called my lawyer at home to see what he said .

(3) gave the cop a name of were i got it ( ffl ) --- Who as of now is one of our County Commissioners

As for the ins co they have a huge data base of the items that they cover , had they not been the ones that insured the gun in the first place this may have never surfaced .

Still hoping this turns out OK ,

stimpy

dw06 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2007, 06:49:49 AM »

I'd say the FFL dealer you bought it from will have some splaining to do.Shouldn't be your problem,but you may not get it back but hope you do.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2007, 06:54:50 AM »

Hope all turns in your favor Good Luck. Kurt

Sourdough · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2007, 09:05:51 AM »

Stempy: Since you bought it from a gun dealer with an FFL I think he (the gun dealer) is responsible to see that you get reimbursed for the price of the gun. Or a reasonable replacement. Anyway good luck. Let me relate an experience I just had.

In 1996 had a Ruger Mini-14 stolen off my snow machine. Was not insured, but I did make a report with the state troopers. About four weeks ago got a call from the troopers asking if I was still missing my gun. ATF was doing an audit of a gun shop in Virginia and found it on the shelf. The trooper gave me the name of the gun shop, I known it well it is the biggest gun shop in New Port News/Hampton area just outside Langley AFB, I've been in it several times. The gun had been sold three times by the same gun shop, and it had come back a forth time. Anyway the gun shop had the name of the original seller to them. That person was working as a security guard and had quite an extensive record with the Va police, in and out of jail. Alaska State Troopers said they were having the gun shipped to Alaska and I would get it back. I'm waiting.

But think about it this gun shop had taken this gun in four times and had not ran the serial number. Or had chosen to ignore it if they did.

The really ironic thing about it is that the gun shop is right outside Langley AFB. I suspected the thief was an Air Force person that stole it since I was on military land behind Eielson AFB when it was stolen. The thief probably got reassigned to Langley from Eielson, where he sold the gun to the nearest gun shop. In 1984 while serving in Turkey, I saw reports that Ruger had just came out with the Mini-14 Ranch Rifle, with a different buffering system than the standard Mini-14. I told my wife I wanted one. In December of 84 while visiting her family there in Hampton VA. and awaiting my return in a few days. She went to the nearest gun shop (guess what shop) and found the gun I wanted. Since she had an Alaskan Drivers license they would not sell her the gun, so her brother being a local resident bought it, so she could give it to me for Christmas that year. The reason for the audit on the gun shop, is that it is suspected of selling guns to people, who are purchasing them for someone else to take to DC. for the underground gun trade. OOPS. I may never see that gun again.

30-06man · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2007, 03:49:27 PM »

Wow. You got lucky.

Glanceblamm · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2007, 05:49:20 PM »

Stimpy
I would say that the FFL dealer would be getting off very light if allowed to purchase the gun back from the insurance company for you plus pay your lawyer cost.
They should also give you some powder & ball for mental anguish.

Hope This All works out for you. Even though the Insurance will want to be reimbursed, they should still want to do what is right by you as their client. Keep us posted.

Hairtrigger · « **Reply #14 on:** November 26, 2007, 02:43:48 PM »

Did you find anything out today?

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 16, 2008, 02:52:56 AM »

Well I'm now a Happy Camper , Mama got a call from the local PD -- I get it back

After a bunch of phone calls , the local PD was able to convince the Pa police dept to release the gun to me not destroy it , seems that their policy is to melt recovered guns that have been paid off by ins companies . Long story , after all the paper work is done i should be able to pick it up at the local PD some time later this week .

stimpy

mjbgalt · « **Reply #16 on:** March 16, 2008, 03:58:14 AM »

i work for state farm, and the "textbook" way this is supposed to work is that if the original guy it was stolen from got paid by the insurance company, they bring it to him and say "hey this is yours. if you want it give us that amount of money back for this item." if the guy says no he doesn't want it, they sell it.

so apparently the guy didn't have the money or just didn't want the hassle. either way, good for you!

-Matt

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** March 16, 2008, 04:08:13 AM »

Once the claim was paid the gun belonged to the insurance company. I'd think someone legally must pay them what they paid out on it before it can be returned to you Stimpy. It should be the gun store you bought it from that is responsible however since they are supposed to check such things prior to selling it.

But if someone doesn't pay that insurance company they are being very generous to allow you to get it back and definitely are not legally obligated to return it to you without payment of what they paid out on the claim.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2008, 01:00:01 AM »

It's my understanding, that when you fill out the form 4473 which list the serial number of the gun, during the instant background check the serial number is ran against a stolen firearms data base.

This may be a case of a transposed digit or mistaken data entry.

Either way, I doubt it's the dealers fault.......he probably checked and it came back clean.......

There are quite a few errors made when entering data, going from paper to digital.......it's no better than the person who enters it......

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2008, 01:10:44 AM »

There is no automatic check of the stolen firearms database built into the form 4473 process. It's completely separate. The proper time for an FFL holder to check a gun for the possibility of it being stolen is BEFORE he pays for it if buying it or before taking it in trade. How many do? Darn few I'd bet.

Sourdough · « **Reply #20 on:** March 18, 2008, 09:22:52 AM »

Just got my Mini-14 back today. It has been stripped. Scope, rings, sling, sling swivels, sights, except for the scope, all the things removed came with the gun from the factory. The only oil on the gun is in the dovetail where the sights were removed. Fresh break in the stock, lower portion missing, no dirt or oil in the break, real clean, cleanest part of the gun. Get the feeling the gun shop that shipped it back was not happy having to do that. Stopped at the range on the way home. Loaded it up and did some point and shoots. Hit where I pointed, and functioned well. $105.50 for missing parts from Ruger, $55.00 for a new stock from Cabela's, and a red dot sight I already have in the shop will finish it off. Was wanting to replace the wood stock with synthetic when it was stolen anyway.

At least I got it back.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #21 on:** March 18, 2008, 02:38:39 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on March 17, 2008, 01:10:44 AM

There is no automatic check of the stolen firearms database built into the form 4473 process. It's completely separate. The proper time for an FFL holder to check a gun for the possibility of it being stolen is BEFORE he pays for it if buying it or before taking it in trade. How many do? Darn few I'd bet.

Pardon me Bill....but I speak with the girls in Nashville quite frequently, nice gals for the most part..........one of them told me they checked the serial number against a list of known stolen firearms.......the place I work doesn't sell used guns so it's never a problem for us......

Not sure if it's policy or something they do in addition to the normal stuff, but that's what I was told.......I suppose other states do it differently.....

NONYA · « **Reply #22 on:** March 18, 2008, 03:25:07 PM »

The insurance scam artist will get nailed and you will loose the gun,i have seen this happen before to a friend who works at a pawn shop.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #23 on:** March 18, 2008, 03:57:23 PM »

Quote from: victorcharlie on March 17, 2008, 01:00:01 AM

It's my understanding, that when you fill out the form 4473 which list the serial number of the gun, during the instant background check the serial number is ran against a stolen firearms data base.

This may be a case of a transposed digit or mistaken data entry.

Either way, I doubt it's the dealers fault.......he probably checked and it came back clean.......

There are quite a few errors made when entering data, going from paper to digital.......it's no better than the person who enters it......

The serial number of the gun isn't given to NICS during a 4473 part. The only thing they know about the gun is if it's a long gun or a hand gun.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #24 on:** March 18, 2008, 04:56:29 PM »

Quote from: kevthebassman on March 18, 2008, 03:57:23 PM

Quote from: victorcharlie on March 17, 2008, 01:00:01 AM
It's my understanding, that when you fill out the form 4473 which list the serial number of the gun, during the instant background check the serial number is ran against a stolen firearms data base.

This may be a case of a transposed digit or mistaken data entry.

Either way, I doubt it's the dealers fault.......he probably checked and it came back clean.......

There are quite a few errors made when entering data, going from paper to digital.......it's no better than the person who enters it......
The serial number of the gun isn't given to NICS during a 4473 part. The only thing they know about the gun is if it's a long gun or a hand gun.

Again, I beg your pardon, but the serial number of the gun is most certainly given to TICS/NICS. Trust me, I did this half a dozen times on sunday, and have done this hundreds of times over the past 18 months or so.......

I can call and talk directly to a TICS representative, or enter it with the serial number on the TICS web site and wait for an approval.

Not meaning to be condescending in anyway, but I do this frequently......

Sourdough · « **Reply #25 on:** March 18, 2008, 05:14:28 PM »

Was told by the Troopers, that my gun had been sold by the gun store in Virginia two times. That means they had taken the gun in at least three times, and had never checked the serial number for a stolen gun report. The only reason it was found was that the store was being audited by ATF. ATF ran the serial numbers of all the used guns on their shelves and had several hits, not just mine. Guess there are a few unscrupulous dealers out there.

Chilachuck · « **Reply #26 on:** March 18, 2008, 05:40:06 PM »

VictorCharlie, mind finding out if that's federal or state? I don't remember overhearing the salesman calling in a serial number. (Alaska)

Graybeard · « **Reply #27 on:** March 19, 2008, 02:02:45 AM »

Quote

Again, I beg your pardon, but the serial number of the gun is most certainly given to TICS/NICS. Trust me, I did this half a dozen times on sunday, and have done this hundreds of times over the past 18 months or so.......

NOT SO when actually dealing with NICS. Your state might be handling it and doing it differently however. Here in Bama the dealer calls the National NICS office directly and they do not mention what the gun is other than handgun or long gun period. I've sat there and listened to the calls dozens of times on guns I buy and all the dealer has to tell NICS is long gun or handgun and how many of them are being purchased. All the rest of data is related to who the buyer is.

Your state may take care of it and they might ask for specific info but if the dealer calls directly to NICS that data is not given.

kevthebassman · « **Reply #28 on:** March 19, 2008, 02:39:01 PM »

Quote from: victorcharlie on March 18, 2008, 04:56:29 PM

Quote from: kevthebassman on March 18, 2008, 03:57:23 PM
Quote from: victorcharlie on March 17, 2008, 01:00:01 AM
It's my understanding, that when you fill out the form 4473 which list the serial number of the gun, during the instant background check the serial number is ran against a stolen firearms data base.

This may be a case of a transposed digit or mistaken data entry.

Either way, I doubt it's the dealers fault.......he probably checked and it came back clean.......

There are quite a few errors made when entering data, going from paper to digital.......it's no better than the person who enters it......
The serial number of the gun isn't given to NICS during a 4473 part. The only thing they know about the gun is if it's a long gun or a hand gun.

Again, I beg your pardon, but the serial number of the gun is most certainly given to TICS/NICS. Trust me, I did this half a dozen times on sunday, and have done this hundreds of times over the past 18 months or so.......

I can call and talk directly to a TICS representative, or enter it with the serial number on the TICS web site and wait for an approval.

Not meaning to be condescending in anyway, but I do this frequently......

I've worked off and on in gun shops for years and buy guns frequently. Maybe they do it different in your state, but here in Missouri the dealer calls NICS (National Instant Check System) directly. The only thing that I have ever told NICS about any gun I've sold is if it is a long gun or a hand gun, and how many guns are being transferred. I did this probably a minimum of twice a day 5 days a week for a year. Before deer season I probably did it 15 times a day and almost as often before Christmas.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2008, 01:32:55 AM »

It appear to me that different states are doing it differently.

Here in Tennessee it's TICS/NICS

http://www.tbi.state.tn.us/divisions/isd_tics.htm

At least in Tennessee, the serial number is given, either verbally, or entered onto TICS website.

Tennessee is probably doing things in addition to federal requirements.