Author Topic: Legality of rifle/handgun in an Encore (Read 94968 times)

jmlv · « **Reply #150 on:** November 30, 2008, 08:33:49 AM »

I have 3 frames and an assortment of barrels, including a 16.4 carbine barrel(I traded off the other carbine barrel a 45/70 bruser). since i store all of them as frames for the most part just how is anybody going to tell if I made up one or other of the frames as a carbine at anytime in its life? Heck I've shot the 16.4"; barrel more as a pistol than a carbine anyway! I have used it for indoor rifle IMSA a time or 2 as well as Pistol IHMSA gun. At this point I keep it simple stock long barrel. Pistol grip any barrel.

Keith L · « **Reply #151 on:** November 30, 2008, 08:45:55 AM »

With Contenders it is much less of a concern. Most of them were made and reported to the Feds as pistols, and would be legal in either configuration. Many Encores were shipped and assumed reported as rifles, and if converted they could present a problem to someone being looked at.

bubba · « **Reply #152 on:** February 02, 2009, 02:35:39 PM »

I am thinking this is why other companies with interchangable barrels stay away from pistol configurations. I am waiting to hear from t/c as to the status of my frame when it was sold.

Graybeard · « **Reply #153 on:** February 02, 2009, 06:14:39 PM »

You'll probably still be waiting when they come to take all your guns from your cold dead fingers.

kiddekop · « **Reply #154 on:** February 05, 2009, 06:23:36 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on November 28, 2007, 04:23:58 AM

Yes it would be possible but I think unlikely. There are some places that they do not allow the sale of TCs as handguns at all. I think it is now that way in CA as far as new ones are concerned as I've seen folks who live there say they can only obtain one if it is already in state. They do allow the TC rifles but not handguns in some areas. I think TC is reluctant to call them all handguns for that reason. Just one more reason I sorta doubt TC is reporting all frames to BATFE these days as handguns.

Your information isn't correct!I live in California.Prior to calif stopping sales of tc receivers we could purchase a frame w/o a barrel which I did twice & registered them as handguns.Under the new law no plain receivers can be sold or purchased they have to be sold with a barrel so my new purchase came with a pistol grip and pistol barrel & is registered as a handgun. The reason TC stopped selling their contender & encore receivers in CA was the CA DOJ wanted TC to submit every receiver with a different caliber pistol barrel to the drop test & pay a testing fee for every different caliber barrel attached to a TC receiver,it would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars and then they'd have to be retested every couple of years.TC stopped all sales here. Republican State Senator Dutton from Rancho Cucamonga sponsored legislation exempting TC Encores & Contender single shot handguns from the DOJ testing it was passed and signed by the governor so now we can buy complete tc encore & g2 contender handguns.

expeditionx · « **Reply #155 on:** March 05, 2009, 12:02:02 PM »

I thought this Bardwell achieve file might be very relevant.
Its old but still how they see things.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt
quote:
If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA. Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.

expeditionx · « **Reply #156 on:** March 05, 2009, 12:19:50 PM »

Found a smoking gun so to speak.

http://www.gunco.net/forums/f3/ak-pistol-question-43150/index2.html
Nov 30, 2004 letter
page 2 post 14

paragraph 2 line 1
"A rifle receiver that has never been stocked as a rifle
may be utilized in the manufacture of a pistol."
That's what I said before. Once a stock goes on,
they always consider it a long gun. Placing a short barrel
on that same receiver that was previously stocked
is a felony. Not my policy, but it is theirs.
I hope you guys in the USA that are doing this and pridefully posting
about it will stop encouraging others to break the law on
this website. I do not like that our gov has these stupid laws
but it's pretty dumb to publicly declare that you are violating
the law on graybeard's outdoors or any internet forum.

Huntz · « **Reply #157 on:** March 24, 2009, 03:22:30 PM »

The Encore frame I just bought came with a rifle buttstock and forearm.It says right on the box Rifle frame only.A barrel of less tha 16" can not be used.

bangbang47 · « **Reply #158 on:** May 07, 2009, 01:19:11 PM »

I have read enough of this Encore rifle, pistol threads to make my head spin. All I want to know is how do I know what year and manufacturer designation my Encore frame is by my serial#?

Davemuzz · « **Reply #159 on:** May 07, 2009, 01:26:12 PM »

Quote from: bangbang47 on May 07, 2009, 01:19:11 PM

I have read enough of this Encore rifle, pistol threads to make my head spin. All I want to know is how do I know what year and manufacturer designation my Encore frame is by my serial#?

The only way for you to find this out is to send a letter or e-mail to T\C and request that they look this up in their files. Ask them if the frame was orginally issued as a long-gun or in a handgun configuration. That's what I did and I keep those letters in my gun safe.

Dave

bangbang47 · « **Reply #160 on:** May 07, 2009, 02:20:49 PM »

Thanks Dave, that is certantly the proper way to find out but what I do not seem to understand is with the thousands upon thousands of T/C Encore frames out there, all looking identical, being sold by gun dealers, private citizens, being used as rifle and pistol combinations, and the original box the frame came in long gone; why wouldn't there be a quicker way for the average "Joe" hunter to go to a web page, look up his serial number and have the year and manufacturers frame designation? (This was the worlds longest sentence).
It all seems to me like a cat and mouse game between the Manufacturer, the BATF, and the average "Joe" hunter, while the real criminal element out there doing any thing it pleases.
The point I am trying to make is that it is too easy to get a Rifle Desig. Encore frame mixed up with a pistol barrel, because they were "made to fit each other".
It's almost like an entrapment senerio.
We need a file list on either the manufactures or this web site to SIMPLYFY it all.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #161 on:** May 08, 2009, 08:48:08 AM »

Quote from: bangbang47 on May 07, 2009, 02:20:49 PM

We need a file list on either the manufactures or this web site to SIMPLYFY it all.

Yeah....well good luck with that since T\C has chosen to do the "ostrich syndrome" and stick their head in the sand over this one. They will not publicly admit that you can't do this rifle\pistol swap. And why? Well, that could be anyones guess......but near the top of the list would be sales. How many people are buying these frames because they think they can swap a handgun and rifle barrel? And....how many marketing dollars would T\C have to spend to sell the idea that it's no big deal to just buy another frame?

Yeah......you do the math.

Dave

patrickcudd · « **Reply #162 on:** June 28, 2009, 02:54:48 PM »

This would be why people vote for pro-gun politicians. Everyone should write their respective legislators about Mr. Nixon. He is truely anti-gun with his many opinions.

Let's not forget that although people view his feelings as law, they are indeed opinions.

So to everyone who says this or that is legal/illegal, let not forget the Second Amendment. That carries the biggest swing of all. It would cost a bunch to get there, which is not good, and this is where T/C, which is now owned by S&W, who has a stellar reputation for standing up to civilians' rights, should stand up to the BATFE or even the NRA who almost all of us give donations to every year!

I promise to test this law as soon as my Powerball ticket wins the grand prize, but until then we will remain in a state of BATFE issued confusion.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #163 on:** June 29, 2009, 01:24:49 AM »

Well, It would appear that I may owe T\C a semi-apology. I say "semi" in that T\C does actually have statements about the rifle\pistol barrel inter-changeability. These, from what I have found, are listed in T\C's Rifle owners Manual's. They are omitted from their Pistol Owner's Manual's as it isn't illegal to mount a Rifle barrel to a pistol frame......but what they DON'T tell you is that once you do this...YOU HAVE NOW MADE IT A RIFLE AND IT'S ILLEGAL TO TO MOUNT A PISTOL BARREL BACK ON TO THE FRAME!!!! Gotta love it.

However, in T\C's Encore (and I didn't look at the Contender Rifle Manual....but I would think it's probably there) RIFLE Manual, it states the following right in the first or second page:

Federal Law prohibits the use of this firearm with a smoothbore barrel
shorter than 18” or a rifled barrel shorter than 16”. When this firearm or
any firearm is used in conjunction with youth training, proper supervision
by a qualified adult is mandatory.

So....I said I owe 'em a semi-apology. Semi in the fact that they do disclose this. However, they don't market it to the consumer nor educate it heavily as they probably should. After all, it is their business and education of their product, and the legal use of it, I would think....should be pretty much near the top as far as a marketing issue.

But, that's just my take on it.

But anyway, there you have it. Right from the "horses mouth." so-to-speak. And even in print. Check it out for yourself by reading the T\C Manuals in PDF format at http://www.tcarms.com/manuals/

Dave

PS: Patrick, Nixon....as in Richard Nixon, former US President. He's dead. No worry about his views anymore.

expeditionx · « **Reply #164 on:** June 29, 2009, 12:13:15 PM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on June 29, 2009, 01:24:49 AM

Well, It would appear that I may owe T\C a semi-apology. I say "semi" in that T\C does actually have statements about the rifle\pistol barrel inter-changeability. These, from what I have found, are listed in T\C's Rifle owners Manual's. They are omitted from their Pistol Owner's Manual's as it isn't illegal to mount a Rifle barrel to a pistol frame......but what they DON'T tell you is that once you do this...YOU HAVE NOW MADE IT A RIFLE AND IT'S ILLEGAL TO TO MOUNT A PISTOL BARREL BACK ON TO THE FRAME!!!! Gotta love it.

However, in T\C's Encore (and I didn't look at the Contender Rifle Manual....but I would think it's probably there) RIFLE Manual, it states the following right in the first or second page:

Federal Law prohibits the use of this firearm with a smoothbore barrel
shorter than 18” or a rifled barrel shorter than 16”. When this firearm or
any firearm is used in conjunction with youth training, proper supervision
by a qualified adult is mandatory.

So....I said I owe 'em a semi-apology. Semi in the fact that they do disclose this. However, they don't market it to the consumer nor educate it heavily as they probably should. After all, it is their business and education of their product, and the legal use of it, I would think....should be pretty much near the top as far as a marketing issue.

But, that's just my take on it.

But anyway, there you have it. Right from the "horses mouth." so-to-speak. And even in print. Check it out for yourself by reading the T\C Manuals in PDF format at http://www.tcarms.com/manuals/

Dave

PS: Patrick, Nixon....as in Richard Nixon, former US President. He's dead. No worry about his views anymore.

They warn on the manual, but their customer service says disregard that
warning. They try to cover their rear with a disclaimer.
The best solution is to nullify the 1934 National Firearms Act and the
1968 Gun Control Act and problem solved.

patrickcudd · « **Reply #165 on:** July 08, 2009, 10:51:30 AM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on June 29, 2009, 01:24:49 AM

Well, It would appear that I may owe T\C a semi-apology. I say "semi" in that T\C does actually have statements about the rifle\pistol barrel inter-changeability. These, from what I have found, are listed in T\C's Rifle owners Manual's. They are omitted from their Pistol Owner's Manual's as it isn't illegal to mount a Rifle barrel to a pistol frame......but what they DON'T tell you is that once you do this...YOU HAVE NOW MADE IT A RIFLE AND IT'S ILLEGAL TO TO MOUNT A PISTOL BARREL BACK ON TO THE FRAME!!!! Gotta love it.
You are 100% wrong on this matter!

However, in T\C's Encore (and I didn't look at the Contender Rifle Manual....but I would think it's probably there) RIFLE Manual, it states the following right in the first or second page:

Federal Law prohibits the use of this firearm with a smoothbore barrel
shorter than 18” or a rifled barrel shorter than 16”. When this firearm or
any firearm is used in conjunction with youth training, proper supervision
by a qualified adult is mandatory.

So....I said I owe 'em a semi-apology. Semi in the fact that they do disclose this. However, they don't market it to the consumer nor educate it heavily as they probably should. After all, it is their business and education of their product, and the legal use of it, I would think....should be pretty much near the top as far as a marketing issue.

But, that's just my take on it.

But anyway, there you have it. Right from the "horses mouth." so-to-speak. And even in print. Check it out for yourself by reading the T\C Manuals in PDF format at http://www.tcarms.com/manuals/

Dave

PS: Patrick, Nixon....as in Richard Nixon, former US President. He's dead. No worry about his views anymore.
You are joking right? I'm talking about the man at the head of the firearms technical branch of the BATFE.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #166 on:** July 08, 2009, 04:05:18 PM »

Quote from: patrickcudd on July 08, 2009, 10:51:30 AM

Quote from: link=topic=131141.msg1098842330#msg1098842330 date=1246274689
Well, It would appear that I may owe T\C a semi-apology. I say "semi" in that T\C does actually have statements about the rifle\pistol barrel inter-changeability. These, from what I have found, are listed in T\C's Rifle owners Manual's. They are omitted from their Pistol Owner's Manual's as it isn't illegal to mount a Rifle barrel to a pistol frame......but what they DON'T tell you is that once you do this...YOU HAVE NOW MADE IT A RIFLE AND IT'S ILLEGAL TO TO MOUNT A PISTOL BARREL BACK ON TO THE FRAME!!!! Gotta love it.
You are 100% wrong on this matter!
Patrickcudd
No I am 100% right on this matter. Haven't you read this entire post? Believe what you want. But my interpretation of the law on this post is 100% correct.

Dave

patrickcudd · « **Reply #167 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:26:51 PM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on July 08, 2009, 04:05:18 PM

Quote from: patrickcudd on July 08, 2009, 10:51:30 AM
Quote from: link=topic=131141.msg1098842330#msg1098842330 date=1246274689
Well, It would appear that I may owe T\C a semi-apology. I say "semi" in that T\C does actually have statements about the rifle\pistol barrel inter-changeability. These, from what I have found, are listed in T\C's Rifle owners Manual's. They are omitted from their Pistol Owner's Manual's as it isn't illegal to mount a Rifle barrel to a pistol frame......but what they DON'T tell you is that once you do this...YOU HAVE NOW MADE IT A RIFLE AND IT'S ILLEGAL TO TO MOUNT A PISTOL BARREL BACK ON TO THE FRAME!!!! Gotta love it.
You are 100% wrong on this matter!
Patrickcudd
No I am 100% right on this matter. Haven't you read this entire post? Believe what you want. But my interpretation of the law on this post is 100% correct.

Dave

Listen....I'm not trying to be confrontational, so I appoligize for the fact that it came across that way.

This has been discussed at length on ar15.com regarding stripped lowers. There are several letters floating around about the fact that as long as it left the factory as a receiver or pistol lower and was first assembeled as a pistol, it can go back and forth between the two. But if it started it's life as a rifle, it must stay a rifle unless entered into the registry as a Short Barreled Rifle with the appropriate taxes being paid.

I'm short on time right now, but I'll try to post the links to the letteres and history on this subject.

ETA: Okay here is the link to the subject that has been compiled by several members...http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=122&t=266557

I have been following this issue for years, that is the reason I answered so strongly. As soon as the AWB expired, it became an issue. I have letters for Mr. Nixon about the LEO marked recievers from during the ban, but I've submitted to the other letters I've seen about this issue since. You can read it and come up with your own opinion, but the issue has been resolved with the ATFE, which carries a bit more weight than T/C's non-direct, unanswer.

Remember, the real issue should be that this is an issue in any case! The Second Ammendment should be the trump card!

Davemuzz · « **Reply #168 on:** July 09, 2009, 02:58:58 PM »

patrickcudd,

Again, and I'm going to be redundant here, but you haven't read this thread in full. There are letters posted here from BAFT that clearly state once a T\C has been made into a rifle, it is illegal to be "turned back" into a pistol.

Just read the thread.

It's all in here and I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.

Dave

patrickcudd · « **Reply #169 on:** July 09, 2009, 05:41:47 PM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on July 09, 2009, 02:58:58 PM

patrickcudd,

Again, and I'm going to be redundant here, but you haven't read this thread in full. There are letters posted here from BAFT that clearly state once a T\C has been made into a rifle, it is illegal to be "turned back" into a pistol.

Just read the thread.

It's all in here and I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.

Dave

Okay, this is more recent than I have read! I will, when I find it post the letter I'm refering to. But, and that's a big BUT, look at the letter J. Spencer wrote. He stated that the Supreme Court ruling applies only to the T/C kit in question "exclusively." Taken to other firearms, reason would apply, in that you can switch back and forth. The ATFE has taken an anti-gun stance, in that the Supreme Court ruling is interpreted in it's most narrow view. Typical for .gov!!

Remember that you must be found guilty by a jury of your peers, and that the ATFE has posted sipmle opinions that have as much weight as mine, so it is not "illegal" unless someone is convicted of doing it.....the only difference is they use everybody's $$$$ to go after you, and you only have your own $$$$.

Keith L · « **Reply #170 on:** July 09, 2009, 09:00:22 PM »

The Supreme Court ruling is narrow, and there is not uniform agreement over how it applies even to Contenders. It makes no mention of Encores or any other firearm.

While one can apply logic and reason to stretch the ruling, since when did logic or reason have lots to do with government?

If you want to be the test case to see what a jury of your peers would do with this be my guest. I can't imagine any more expensive or depressing way to spend the next ten years or so.

expeditionx · « **Reply #171 on:** September 24, 2009, 02:47:02 PM »

I posted an ATF letter refering to the fact in question with an uzi pistol as the example.
Clearly indicated was that making an uzi pistol into a rifle was ok, but returning it to a pistol
required an approved-paid tax stamp. Same should be true with any pistol that is not an exempt
kit gun like the TC kit addressed by the US Supreme Court case.
Please read reply #140 in this thread, look at page two, and then tell me how exactly
the advice given is wrong if the Feds say switching back is a felony for a regular gun (not a kit).
I'm sure plenty of people have converted their AR-15 pistols to rifle and back, but technically
according to every ATF letter I have ever seen on this issue it is a felony. I don't have the time
and don't want to spend the legal fees fighting such an issue in court.

Quote from: patrickcudd on July 09, 2009, 05:41:47 PM

Quote from: Davemuzz on July 09, 2009, 02:58:58 PM
patrickcudd,

Again, and I'm going to be redundant here, but you haven't read this thread in full. There are letters posted here from BAFT that clearly state once a T\C has been made into a rifle, it is illegal to be "turned back" into a pistol.

Just read the thread.

It's all in here and I'm not going to reinvent the wheel.

Dave

Okay, this is more recent than I have read! I will, when I find it post the letter I'm refering to. But, and that's a big BUT, look at the letter J. Spencer wrote. He stated that the Supreme Court ruling applies only to the T/C kit in question "exclusively." Taken to other firearms, reason would apply, in that you can switch back and forth. The ATFE has taken an anti-gun stance, in that the Supreme Court ruling is interpreted in it's most narrow view. Typical for .gov!!

Remember that you must be found guilty by a jury of your peers, and that the ATFE has posted sipmle opinions that have as much weight as mine, so it is not "illegal" unless someone is convicted of doing it.....the only difference is they use everybody's $$$$ to go after you, and you only have your own $$$$.

expeditionx · « **Reply #172 on:** September 30, 2009, 04:52:47 PM »

Well, I think this says it all.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=184325.0;attach=25408;image

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=184325.0;attach=25410;image

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=184325.0;attach=25412;image

Davemuzz · « **Reply #173 on:** October 01, 2009, 01:46:37 AM »

It'ssssss.......................Frame buyin time!!!!

Dave

JerryKo · « **Reply #174 on:** November 05, 2009, 08:25:25 AM »

Can someone clarify? I dont completly understand. My frame was purchased with a rifle stock attached. The box states it cannot have a barrel shorter than 16 inches for rifle. The last letters....are they saying you can make it a pistol NOW?

Jerry

Davemuzz · « **Reply #175 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:04:51 AM »

Jerry,

No. Short 'n sweet is.....once your frame "becomes" or "leaves" the factory as a rifle, it is forever a rifle UNLESS you apply to BAFT and pay BAFT the $200 to legally "change" your frame to a "handgun" status. Then you will be legally allowed to attach a handgun barrel to it.

Also, what that last letter is stating is that IF you bought....what T\C sold at one point in time....what was known as a "Kit Gun" which had one frame and a rifle stock, handgun stock, rifle barrel, and handgun barrel....in order for you to attach the shorter (shorter than 16") handgun barrel WHILE leaving on the rifle stock....you HAD to apply to BAFT for a permit (I dunno if I'm using the correct word here...ie" PERMIT) in order to do so. But, in the "kit gun" it was legal to use the same frame and swap from long rifle to handgun. BUT ONLY WITH THIS KIT GUN.

HOWEVER, If you attach a rifle barrel to it AGAIN.....it will again remain a rifle....until you again, apply to BAFT and pay the $200 to have it legally authorized to attach a short handgun barrel to it.

So....it's just easier and less costly to buy a handgun frame.

JerryKo · « **Reply #176 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:20:43 AM »

ok...that last sentence says it all. Thanks Dave.

Jerry

expeditionx · « **Reply #177 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:29:31 AM »

I was reading recently that the new policy for receiver sales is no sales to anyone under 21 years of age because
it can be made into a legal pistol unless a buttstock has been attached and then its legal to sell to someone under 21
as a long gun.

expeditionx · « **Reply #178 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:37:44 AM »

http://www.tacticalinc.com/forged-precision-machinedbr-ar15-lower-receiver-p-1080.html
SHIPPED AS A "RECEIVER" - YOU DESIGNATE RIFLE OR PISTOL

Since our virgin stripped T15 Lower Receiver can be assembled in either a pistol or a rifle configuration (subject to ATF regulations), no designation of pistol or rifle is marked on the receiver which allows you to assemble it in either configuration you prefer (contact ATF for assembly restrictions and guidelines). The receiver is equally suited for either application.

http://www.militarygunsupply.com/shop2/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=317
Century FAL Receiver - Metric
$299.95
New Century Arms receiver for metric FAL build. Carry handle cut and ejector block installed. These are in the white Counts as one US made part in your build. All NFA and 922R rules apply.

In stock and ready to ship!

NOTE: Due to a new classification of receivers on the form 4473, receivers cannot be transferred to individuals under 21 years of age. Please do not order this item if you do not meet the required age. Returns for this reason may be subject to a restocking fee

youthpastorjon · « **Reply #179 on:** November 05, 2009, 12:43:12 PM »

I bought just the frame and peiced my gun together. When I purchased the frame I was specifically asked if I had a pistol permit. I replied no and sold me the gun as a rifle.