Author Topic: Legality of rifle/handgun in an Encore (Read 94539 times)

30-06man · « **Reply #60 on:** February 11, 2008, 04:01:43 PM »

I am still confused. If I put a pistol grip on an Encore "Rifle frame" now I am not violating the laws because all frames are pistol frames? I still say make sure its a "pistol frame" before making it a pistol to be on the safe side.

alsaqr · « **Reply #61 on:** February 13, 2008, 05:41:42 AM »

My Encore was purchased as a .50 caliber muzzle loader. On the back of the recoil pad it states: "WARNING Federal law prohibits use with barrel less than 16 in."

DEACONLLB · « **Reply #62 on:** February 13, 2008, 06:41:25 AM »

I talked to a Thompson Contender dealer today and what he said that he does is to register the sale as a pistol rifle combination and that way there is no problem at least that is the way he feels. I am not a lawyer so I do not know what legal would be but I switch barrels and stocks all the time and have had no problems. The key word may be 200.00 and paper work to make it legal.
Just my 2 cents worth. I did meet a fellow years ago who had made a pistol out of a single shot bolt action 30-30 rifle with a solid brass stock looked a lot like a 45 auto but a little bigger weight around 8 lbs. the paper work that he showed me in order to get the thing made legal was thicker than a family bible.
Deaconllb

Davemuzz · « **Reply #63 on:** February 13, 2008, 08:54:50 AM »

The first thing that I would do is LOOK AT YOUR PAPERWORK THAT WAS SENT IN WHEN YOU BOT YOUR T\C. Then you can figure out what to do from there. If your frame was registered as a handgun, then your done. If a rifle, then your not.

One other item...I guess if the Fed's wanted too, the could just go on a T\C round up and check all the T\C owners out there and toss 'em all in jail if they aren't registered properly. Now, there's a fine use of law enforcement resources......'eh?

Dave

Keith L · « **Reply #64 on:** February 13, 2008, 10:12:00 AM »

Odds are that it will never be an issue unless you are having trouble for some other issue and the LEO involved knew and cared that there may be a discrepancy. Then you will want more than the legal opinion of a gun dealer and a few of us on the internet.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #65 on:** February 13, 2008, 11:17:10 AM »

Quote from: DEACONLLB on February 13, 2008, 06:41:25 AM

I talked to a Thompson Contender dealer today and what he said that he does is to register the sale as a pistol rifle combination and that way there is no problem at least that is the way he feels. I am not a lawyer so I do not know what legal would be but I switch barrels and stocks all the time and have had no problems. The key word may be 200.00 and paper work to make it legal.
Just my 2 cents worth. I did meet a fellow years ago who had made a pistol out of a single shot bolt action 30-30 rifle with a solid brass stock looked a lot like a 45 auto but a little bigger weight around 8 lbs. the paper work that he showed me in order to get the thing made legal was thicker than a family bible.
Deaconllb

HUH? There is no such thing as a "pistol rifle combination".

encore58 · « **Reply #66 on:** February 13, 2008, 12:23:56 PM »

I don't buy that it is illegal. Never heard of anyone being arrested for this either.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #67 on:** February 13, 2008, 12:46:38 PM »

Yeah....I'm agreein with Encore58. Also, with all of the scrutiny of the gun industry over the last 20 years, with the fact that any gun manufacturer is in the crosshairs of any anti-gun group, I would think that T\C would be or have been "pounced" upon for this issue.

Dave

Keith L · « **Reply #68 on:** February 13, 2008, 01:36:03 PM »

Quote from: encore58 on February 13, 2008, 12:23:56 PM

I don't buy that it is illegal. Never heard of anyone being arrested for this either.

Someone with your attitude will be the test case. Then we will all know where it ends up.

encore58 · « **Reply #69 on:** February 13, 2008, 01:45:22 PM »

Quote from: Keith L on February 13, 2008, 01:36:03 PM

Quote from: encore58 on February 13, 2008, 12:23:56 PM
I don't buy that it is illegal. Never heard of anyone being arrested for this either.

Someone with your attitude will be the test case. Then we will all know where it ends up.

Don't think so pal. I don't own any pistol barrels and have 2 pistol frames.

Don 't plan on putting any pistol barrels on any of them.

Keith L · « **Reply #70 on:** February 13, 2008, 03:15:06 PM »

Then it won't be you, but someone who thinks like you. If you read my last post that is what I said. Not that it would be you.

30-06man · « **Reply #71 on:** February 13, 2008, 03:25:22 PM »

I am not going to be the test case. I have thought about calling the local law and see what they say about it. Might, might not.

encore58 · « **Reply #72 on:** February 13, 2008, 04:09:37 PM »

Quote from: Keith L on February 13, 2008, 03:15:06 PM

Then it won't be you, but someone who thinks like you. If you read my last post that is what I said. Not that it would be you.

I'll bet many Encore and Contender owners think like me and have yet to see anyone too concerned about this legality. I don't know what your deal is that you feel compelled to inflame my points of view by making it personal, but if it turns you on then keep going... I'll be your huckleberry.

30-06man · « **Reply #73 on:** February 13, 2008, 04:58:54 PM »

Quote from: Keith L on February 13, 2008, 01:36:03 PM

Quote from: encore58 on February 13, 2008, 12:23:56 PM
I don't buy that it is illegal. Never heard of anyone being arrested for this either.

Someone with your attitude will be the test case. Then we will all know where it ends up.

I don't think he meant it as a personal attack and I would just leave it at that. I think this is a major flaw and it needs to be fixed. The consequences are too great to play around with.

encore58 · « **Reply #74 on:** February 13, 2008, 05:13:59 PM »

Quote from: 30-06man on February 13, 2008, 04:58:54 PM

Quote from: Keith L on February 13, 2008, 01:36:03 PM
Quote from: encore58 on February 13, 2008, 12:23:56 PM
I don't buy that it is illegal. Never heard of anyone being arrested for this either.

Someone with your attitude will be the test case. Then we will all know where it ends up.

I don't think he meant it as a personal attack and I would just leave it at that. I think this is a major flaw and it needs to be fixed. The consequences are too great to play around with.

In all due respect I took it personally. But, I do agree that this issue should be resolved!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #75 on:** February 13, 2008, 06:34:19 PM »

Here's the the law straight from the the horse himself.

http://www.handgunhunt.com/tech/t29/index.html

Graybeard · « **Reply #76 on:** February 13, 2008, 11:35:55 PM »

Thanks Tim for posting that. I've been trying to tell folks that for years around here but they just won't listen. One of these days some one of them will be in court arguing it and case law may or may not change things but as shown that is BATFE's position on the TCs and has been for years. Folks just won't believe it as they mistakenly think the TC Court Case changed it but it didn't even address this issue but a totally separate one.

Keith L · « **Reply #77 on:** February 13, 2008, 11:45:09 PM »

Thanks Tim. I just added that URL to the TC Handguns forum FAQ in hopes that it will counter some of the barracks lawyers and maybe keep someone out of trouble.

tn_junk · « **Reply #78 on:** February 14, 2008, 01:39:27 AM »

Glad that I now have a separate frame for my rifles and pistols. The $299 I spent was well worth it.
Thanks for that link.

alan

Davemuzz · « **Reply #79 on:** February 14, 2008, 02:15:21 AM »

So.....the "bottom line" on my 2 T\C frames (which are registered here in Pa as "frames") is that I have to call T\C and ask them how they originally were registered as? They (T\C) would be the only ones who would know this information?

Dave

tn_junk · « **Reply #80 on:** February 14, 2008, 02:48:42 AM »

Quote from: Davemuzz on February 14, 2008, 02:15:21 AM

So.....the "bottom line" on my 2 T\C frames (which are registered here in Pa as "frames") is that I have to call T\C and ask them how they originally were registered as? They (T\C) would be the only ones who would know this information?

Dave

Yep. I called TC and found out that my 209x50 was sold as a "Rifle".

alan

kid_couteau · « **Reply #81 on:** February 14, 2008, 03:44:23 AM »

Hi All

Please forgive me as I am NO lawyer and some of the legalese confuses me.

I have two Encore frames. Both originally bought new as pistol frames with the pistol grips and fore end.

Can I legally put a rifle barrel and stock on these?

Thank you for your patience
Kid

norman · « **Reply #82 on:** February 14, 2008, 05:59:20 AM »

Quote from: kid_couteau on February 14, 2008, 03:44:23 AM

Hi All

Please forgive me as I am NO lawyer and some of the legalese confuses me.

I have two Encore frames. Both originally bought new as pistol frames with the pistol grips and fore end.

Can I legally put a rifle barrel and stock on these?

Thank you for your patience
Kid

Seems to me as long as you have a rifle stock and rifle bbl then you are ok. If you have a pistol grip and pistol bbl on it then you are ok. If you have a rifle stock and pistol bbl on it BIG HUGE NO-NO. If I were going to do this I would take the gun to the range either as one or the other (rilfe or pistol) and would NOT change from one to the other at the range. I dont think the BATF will show up at your house and check (but I may be wrong, as this is a guvment operation) The word "INTENT" comes to mind here. If you are running around with a pistol bbl on your rifle stocked frame then you deserve what ya get.

I don't think the "man" would show up at the range to run the serial but then again some bored Barney Fife type might. This is just my .02 and take it for what it's worth cause I ain't no lawyer and I WONT pay for yer legal fees, etc etc.

Just be cool and hope Hitlerey does not get elected this year. As to legally can you do it.....don't know. Seems quick's letter from the BATmen really does not address this question to me...I am kinda dense tho.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #83 on:** February 14, 2008, 07:29:39 AM »

I was thinking......yeah....sometimes a dangerous thing to do......but, is it practical for the...what?

half-a-million T\C owners to flood T\C with calls asking "What was my frame #xxx,xxx originally issued as?"

And then....and again...I'm no lawyer....what if they tell you it was issued as a handgun....and then a week later, the law calls and says "it was issued as a rifle". I mean heck....it's just a phone call. There is NO DOCUMENTATION here. It cannot be relied upon to simply call T\C and have "someone" at T\C via a phone call tell you this information and it be "assumed" this information is reliable.

MHO

Dave

encore58 · « **Reply #84 on:** February 14, 2008, 08:58:27 AM »

Maybe the guy who wrote the letter is wrong and interpreted the law incorrectly. Wouldn't be the first time a govt. official was wrong or made a mistake. I would bet nobody will ever be arrested for making an Encore rifle into a legal pistol configuration and if they were I'd bet a decent lawyer would get him/her off and set the correct precedent. Where has the NRA been concerning this matter? Seems with the millions of dollars donated they would be all over this issue and be challenging this in court. What a crock. This is just another gun tax, plain and simple if the above letter is law.

I just talked to Thompson Center and was informed that this is governed by the individual states. I could believe the above letter may apply to states like Mass., Ca., NJ, NY, etc. Don't think there is any laws against the conversion in Ohio. I will continue my quest for the full story concerning this matter. Again, I do not have any Encore pistols and don't plan to but I find this topic disturbing.
Last, if this were true why hasn't the BATF raided any gun shows... pick one anywhere... and made many arrests because I would be willing to bet the tables are full of Contender/Encore pistols on "rifle" frames? My guess is they know they'd lose this battle in court. It is easier and more profitable to collect the $200.00 from the willing.

Graybeard · « **Reply #85 on:** February 14, 2008, 10:13:24 AM »

Quote

Please forgive me as I am NO lawyer and some of the legalese confuses me.

I have two Encore frames. Both originally bought new as pistol frames with the pistol grips and fore end.

Can I legally put a rifle barrel and stock on these?

THAT actually IS the issue TC got decided when they went to court all those years ago. It is supposed to be OK to make a rifle from a handgun but not vice versa. Just don't have the handgun length barrel on the frame at same time as the rifle stock is attached to it.

I agree the chances of being caught and arrested are slim but me well I don't wanna be the one who does get caught and taken to court over it.

Keith L · « **Reply #86 on:** February 14, 2008, 11:30:47 AM »

There are state laws that apply to rifle and pistol configuration. There are also federal laws that are administered by BATF, and violations of those laws can result in stiff penalties. It is up to each of us to decide what we want to do about conforming to the laws of the land. Personally I don't think it is worth the risk to assume that I know more than one of the agents charged with enforcing the law. And I guess I don't think it is all that responsible to discuss breaking laws on an open internet forum. But once again, we each can decide how we want to live our lives.

encore58 · « **Reply #87 on:** February 14, 2008, 11:43:46 AM »

Quote from: Keith L on February 14, 2008, 11:30:47 AM

Personally I don't think it is worth the risk to assume that I know more than one of the agents charged with enforcing the law. And I guess I don't think it is all that responsible to discuss breaking laws on an open internet forum. But once again, we each can decide how we want to live our lives.

Hey Keith, that's what is great about America. The right to voice ones opinions and fight for justice. Maybe I should go reread the entire thread but I didn't notice anyone stating they were going to illegally do anything. As for me, I can't because I don't shoot pistol barrels on my Encores. Next, we'll be told watch out for the thought police.
I hold a SECRET clearance, am a veteran (8 years of service), have worked for the government since I was 18 years old and am now 50. I am very aware of how the govt. operates. Quit reading all those Clancy novels, it's making you paranoid.

Graybeard · « **Reply #88 on:** February 14, 2008, 11:44:02 AM »

I'm not convinced it's technically "illegal" or that it should be and thus so regulated BUT...it has not yet been tested in court so until it is the BATFE position is basically equal to law. Some day it will go to court and a precedent will be established one way or the other. Based on recent court rulings I don't think the person caught is gonna win to be honest. I'm NOT gonna be that someone.

encore58 · « **Reply #89 on:** February 14, 2008, 11:50:59 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on February 14, 2008, 11:44:02 AM

I'm not convinced it's technically "illegal" or that it should be and thus so regulated BUT...it has not yet been tested in court so until it is the BATFE position is basically equal to law. Some day it will go to court and a precedent will be established one way or the other. ...

Bill,
I couldn't agree more with that post, but I think a good lawyer and NRA backing this case could be won. I wish the NRA Legislative Foundation would take this on.