Author Topic: Legality of rifle/handgun in an Encore (Read 95136 times)

tn_junk · « **Reply #30 on:** December 11, 2007, 11:33:05 AM »

Had another talk with my BATF friend last night. Mentioned that my Encore has never been a rifle, only a muzzle loader and a pistol.
This threw a monkey wrench in his opinion that it would be against the law for me to change from 209x50 to .243 Pistol and back to 209x50. Under current statutes, a muzzle loader is not "technically" a rifle.
He said he would check with his folks and get me an answer as soon as he could.

alan

30-06man · « **Reply #31 on:** December 11, 2007, 12:24:49 PM »

The frame is registered as a firearm either pistol, rifle, or shotgun. You cannot buy a muzzle loader t/c and it not be registered.

SlowLeadBullets · « **Reply #32 on:** December 12, 2007, 06:30:43 PM »

So, if I pay $200 and do the paperwork, can I put together any combination of stocks and barrels on my TC frame?

tcmanbam · « **Reply #33 on:** December 13, 2007, 07:39:49 AM »

yes as long as you only have 1 tc frame otherwise you need to pay 200 for each because they will interchange even though nobody most everyone would keep 1 a pistol and 1 a rifle but they say it does not matter because they will still interchange

Bob96 · « **Reply #34 on:** December 13, 2007, 10:04:29 AM »

I know that shotgun barrels less than 18" are not legal. Is a 12 gauge rifled slug barrel considered a shotgun brl or just a large caliber rifle barrel.

30-06man · « **Reply #35 on:** December 13, 2007, 04:13:59 PM »

Shotgun because it can still shoot lead shot and the shell is a shotgun shell. Rifles use metallic cartridges.

Lawdog613 · « **Reply #36 on:** December 26, 2007, 12:31:37 PM »

Hi, I'm new to this forum. Lots of good information. As for this subject I have researched it alot.
When the frames leave T/C they are classified by serial number as Long gun (Rifle, Shotgun Muzzleloader) or Handgun.
That is also why you need form 4473 to get an encore or contender muzzleloader.

The bottom line is it is not legal to convert. It might be to convert pistol to rifle but once it must stay a rifle because changing it would technically be a violation of the NFA (National Firearms act).
While the chances of anything happening are slim. Safest is to have two frames. One rifle and one pistol. I have included a link to another forum that has a good letter. Also the court case I believe was not an upgrade but a (Kit) containing frame and stocks for both rifle and pistol. If you own one of the kits you can believe change them back and forth. http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=239

30-06man · « **Reply #37 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:11:55 PM »

Welcome to GBO. The kit had a rifle barrel and stock and forearm. You can convert a pistol frame to rifle without breaking any laws and back again without breaking any laws. The frame is still a pistol frame so it can be changed back to a pistol legally. There is no gap in the law there.

tn_junk · « **Reply #38 on:** December 26, 2007, 10:39:25 PM »

Just to be safe, I bought a Pistol frame.
Now I have an Encore Rifle frame for my rifles and 209x.50 and an Encore Pistol frame for my 15" .243, 15" .270 and 15" .357 MAX.
I know the chances of being in trouble over this are 1 in a million, but with my luck, I would be the 1.

alan

Two Bears · « **Reply #39 on:** December 27, 2007, 01:05:01 AM »

A different twist...........

You buy a "frame" from a dealer that has no stock or barrel (used), the 4473 is filled out and out the door you go -

How do they know the difference as to what it is going to be? Pistol or rifle?

30-06man · « **Reply #40 on:** December 27, 2007, 03:28:13 AM »

Quote from: Two Bears on December 27, 2007, 01:05:01 AM

A different twist...........

You buy a "frame" from a dealer that has no stock or barrel (used), the 4473 is filled out and out the door you go -

How do they know the difference as to what it is going to be? Pistol or rifle?

The frame has to be either a pistol or rifle. So they better check to cover their butts and yours.

tn_junk · « **Reply #41 on:** December 27, 2007, 10:04:47 AM »

The first Encore I bought was shipped from TC as a complete 209x50. A call to TC found that it was shipped as a "rifle" frame.
Supposedly, all of the Pistol frames are shipped from TC with a Pistol Grip and Fore End, while you can buy a rifle frame "plain".

alan

tree rat · « **Reply #42 on:** December 27, 2007, 10:24:50 PM »

It might be possible to get someone to settle this if we all sent a letter to BATFE with our serial numbers, demanding to know its disposition by T/C as either a longgun or handgun and from that exact disposition each and every possible configuration that would be leagle. they will get real tired of anserwing the same question and make a formal decission! even if they do not you will still have there response to your exact frame, then follow it exactly and never again worry about there GOT YA! b.s. again, on that frame.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #43 on:** December 28, 2007, 02:37:44 PM »

I know I've thrown my $0.02 on this before. But I believe that the "registration" issue is done in a state based upon the laws of that state. I believe this as when the T\C leaves the factory, the gun...in whatever configuration it is in, is not "registered" anywhere as anything (handgun or longgun).

If you go to a "big-box" store such as Cabela's and ask for a G2 in .223, if they don't have a G2 in that configuration, they will take the barrel off a G2, slap a .223 barrel on it and out the door you will go! And, the long gun will get registered at THAT POINT in accordance with the laws of the state it is purchased in.

I have purchased two Contender frames in Pa. Both frames have been "registered" as just that..."frames". If you look at the registration form under "caliber" it says "frame". This was sent into the state of Pennsylvania. They haven't arrested me yet.

Dave

Keith L · « **Reply #44 on:** December 28, 2007, 10:00:53 PM »

Just remember:

1) Dave's advice is based on the actions of a store counter clerk and not the opinion of a trained lawyer
2) IF the feds do come for you telling them your opinion of the legality of your conversion must be true because you read it on the Internet will not have them go away.

Further, I read no ones post to say they would be willing to post your bail or pay for your legal representation while working the case. Nor will anyone do your time for you. Do your research and make up your own mind.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #45 on:** December 29, 2007, 10:49:31 AM »

Thanks Keith!

Keith is absolutely correct. I am not a lawyer, nor do I give legal advice! Nor will I bail anyone out of anything.

However, the "store clerk" was one at a well known multi-state retailer that begins with the big letter "C".

The other was just a local guy who sells about 4 zillion T\C's a year.

I'm sure they both made the same mistake two years apart....yeah....that sounds logical.

Excuse me now.....I have to answer the door bell....there are men in black uniforms with black rifles and shiny badges. Gun salesmen perhaps?

Dave

30-06man · « **Reply #46 on:** December 29, 2007, 10:52:39 AM »

Yeah they will sell it to ya. Just as soon as they find the encore rifle frame with a pistol barrel.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #47 on:** December 29, 2007, 10:59:21 AM »

Quote from: 30-06man on December 29, 2007, 10:52:39 AM

Yeah they will sell it to ya. Just as soon as they find the encore rifle frame with a pistol barrel.

That would be great.....except they are registered as "frames". They are not specific as to long-gun or pistol.

How do ya like me now?

Dave

30-06man · « **Reply #48 on:** December 29, 2007, 11:05:18 AM »

Lucky!! Mine are a pistol and a longgun. So you only need one frame.

Graybeard · « **Reply #49 on:** December 29, 2007, 11:34:43 AM »

Registration is a state/local matter. That Federal form 4477 or some such number (I really never pay attention to the number of it) is what's gonna come back to bite ya in the butt. It requires a check mark in a block as handgun, riifle or shotgun. One of them has to be checked so even a frame is marked as one of the three on the FEDERAL form that matters.

Still TC reports all production to BATFE just like all makers do. I sure wish we could get a real answer from them or BATFE on how they are reported. I'm not sure if production is reported by SN or only by quantity. If quantity only and not all are reported the same then that really leaves things wide open in a way as the ONLY document that can determine a frame's status is that federal form kept by the selling dealer until he closes his doors and forwards them to BATFE. That would make it almost impossible to know without a major investigation so they couldn't know at a traffic stop or some such event.

tn_junk · « **Reply #50 on:** December 30, 2007, 03:05:49 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on December 29, 2007, 11:34:43 AM

Registration is a state/local matter. That Federal form 4477 or some such number (I really never pay attention to the number of it) is what's gonna come back to bite ya in the butt. It requires a check mark in a block as handgun, riifle or shotgun. One of them has to be checked so even a frame is marked as one of the three on the FEDERAL form that matters.

Still TC reports all production to BATFE just like all makers do. I sure wish we could get a real answer from them or BATFE on how they are reported. I'm not sure if production is reported by SN or only by quantity. If quantity only and not all are reported the same then that really leaves things wide open in a way as the ONLY document that can determine a frame's status is that federal form kept by the selling dealer until he closes his doors and forwards them to BATFE. That would make it almost impossible to know without a major investigation so they couldn't know at a traffic stop or some such event.

When I e-mailed TC and asked them about my frame, they clearly stated that it was sold as a complete 209x50 and registered as a rifle frame.
I talked to the GM of the large nationwide shooting supplier where I bought my pistol frame (a GBO sponsor whose headquarters is only a few minutes away from me) and he told me that TC clearly states whether a frame is pistol or rifle when they send it to the retailer. Even having to ship the pistol frames differently from the rifle frames due to regs on shipping pistols.
TC answered my question about whether my frame was pistol or rifle within 24 hours.
IMHO, no one who owns a TC in pistol form should not know whether they have a pistol or rifle frame.
But, I ain't a lawyer, ain't never gonna be one, and don't give legal advice.

alan

Davemuzz · « **Reply #51 on:** December 30, 2007, 05:51:28 AM »

Hmmm.......Looks like my information source on information may (or may not)have been correct on the type of frame when it leaves T\C.

However.....Have you ever heard of "Re-registration?" ie: the process of chaingin what use to be a rifle frame to a pistol frame.

Dave.

kid_couteau · « **Reply #52 on:** January 03, 2008, 04:04:41 PM »

Hi All

Real interested in this cause I may buy a TC Encore

Question that I dont understand is the whole pistol part.

I have been of the understanding that if you had a rifle and made a handgun from it it was illegal.

Also if you take a handgun and turn it into a rifle that too was illegal.

Like the old lugers. Some were designed to accept a removable stock. Today this would be illegal.

Im confused maybe Ill just buy an AK

Later
Kid

Davemuzz · « **Reply #53 on:** January 03, 2008, 04:09:54 PM »

Quote from: kid_couteau on January 03, 2008, 04:04:41 PM

Im confused maybe Ill just buy an AK

Later
Kid

Yeah....it's all confusing like that. Must be that all T\C owners who swap between rifles and handguns are illegal. I'd just stick to air rifles.

Dave

30-06man · « **Reply #54 on:** January 04, 2008, 03:11:04 PM »

Get a pistol frame and it can go to anything and back to a pistol. Just buy a pistol frame and then you can change it to anything.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #55 on:** January 05, 2008, 08:30:32 AM »

Let's assume that you bought an Encore that left the factory as a "long gun" and was transferred to you as a "rifle". If you wanted to legally use it as a handgun can you "re-register" the gun, as suggested? If so, how?

flhshvlhed · « **Reply #56 on:** February 01, 2008, 08:37:59 PM »

I recent purchased an Encore frame w/ a Pro Hunter stock and a forearm. (They had some unbelievable prices on frames!!!) I asked the person at the store - the sportsman place that has a warehouse - anyway - I specifically asked some of the questions that were brought up on this thread. I.E. - buy a pistol, can make it a rifle - OK?, but buy a rifle frame, make it into a pistol - Not OK? Initially, as per the letter of the law, technically, you can't change the one purchased w/ rifle stock to a pistol. As a result - I was waffling between the pistol or rifle version.

I decided on the PH setup, due to me not caring to shoot a pistol version of a rifle caliber. Upon his return from the rear w/ the box, he stated that they had an email out, reference the very question that I had asked. As per TC, ALL FRAMES leaving the factory, are classified as pistol frames. Pertaining to the fed form (4473?), the only information that was recorded, was the Ser #, the word "Receiver" and N/A in the last three boxes (29, 30, 31?).

It's been a few days, so I may not have quoted it verbatim, but someone might be able to look into it further. Also - if anyone is in AK, this place has some killer deals on pistol and rifle frame packages!!!

Hope this helps, reference purchasing a frame. Now - pertaining to the older ones - who knows!?!?!

Maybe someone should consult the Ouiji board or the Magic * Ball.

Mike

stanw · « **Reply #57 on:** February 11, 2008, 11:34:50 AM »

You guys got me thinking and I checked the box my 30-06 prohunter came in on the end is a warning I quote "WARNING:Federal law prohibits use of this firearm with a smoothbore barrel shorter than 18'' or a rifled barrel shorter than 16'' ".It does not say anything about using a pistol grip with a short barrel. Is this just Tc covering there butts ( I don't blame them with all the sue happy people out there.) I did not see this when I bought it and planed on getting some short barrels .45/410 for one but don't dare to now even though the dealer and most everyone else said that is the best part of Tc's there interchangeable.

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #58 on:** February 11, 2008, 12:38:28 PM »

Quote from: stanw on February 11, 2008, 11:34:50 AM

You guys got me thinking and I checked the box my 30-06 prohunter came in on the end is a warning I quote "WARNING:Federal law prohibits use of this firearm with a smoothbore barrel shorter than 18'' or a rifled barrel shorter than 16'' ".It does not say anything about using a pistol grip with a short barrel. Is this just Tc covering there butts ( I don't blame them with all the sue happy people out there.) I did not see this when I bought it and planed on getting some short barrels .45/410 for one but don't dare to now even though the dealer and most everyone else said that is the best part of Tc's there interchangeable.

My rifle box indicated the same thing. I see no confusion in their statement. NO SHORT BARRELS, regardless of what stock or grip is on the firearm!

As to the notion that all Contenders/Encore frames should be classified as a handgun - that would not be a good idea. It would prevent anyone who is not currently authorized to possess a handgun from owning a Contender/Encore rifle. Remember, handgun permits are prohibitive and quite expensive in some areas. Why should anyone be required to get one in order to own a TC rifle or shotgun built on the Contender/Encore frame? Some shooters may not even be elegible to possess a "handgun" for whatever reason.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #59 on:** February 11, 2008, 03:53:34 PM »

Quote from: stanw on February 11, 2008, 11:34:50 AM

You guys got me thinking and I checked the box my 30-06 prohunter came in on the end is a warning I quote "WARNING:Federal law prohibits use of this firearm with a smoothbore barrel shorter than 18'' or a rifled barrel shorter than 16'' ".It does not say anything about using a pistol grip with a short barrel. Is this just Tc covering there butts ( I don't blame them with all the sue happy people out there.) I did not see this when I bought it and planed on getting some short barrels .45/410 for one but don't dare to now even though the dealer and most everyone else said that is the best part of Tc's there interchangeable.

IMHO...I think you are "overthinking" this one. Your PH was in "rifle" form in the box. As such, if you were to attach any barrel shorter than the one's listed with the long gun stock, you would be in violation of federal law. Yeah, I'm sure T\C gave a lot of thought on what to put on the box. But with each State being a bit different, they probably can't cover 'em all in a statement that will fit on the end of a box. (I'm no attorney...and that's just my SWAG)

Now, IF you remove the long gun stock, and put a handgun grip on it....now your singing a different tune.

Oh, BTW, thanks to flhshvlhed for the post on "frames" when registering the gun at purchase. That's what my dealer has done on my T\C buys and I've stated that here....and people have said that I'm nutz. So....at least I know that there are other NUTZ out there!!!!

Dave