Legality of rifle/handgun in an Encore

[Davemuzz]

And I guess I don't think it is all that responsible to discuss breaking laws on an open internet forum.

Keith....remember that old Crosby, Stills & Nash song verse..."Paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep, starts when your always afraid, step out of line..the man comes and takes you away" But I'm with Encore58 on this one....I don't see where anyone had stated they were going to break the law and challenge "the man".

And I still don't see how in the world a phone call to T\C is going to amount to a hill of beans in any legal proceedings as to whether the frame was originally registered as a handgun or a longgun.

Dave

[encore58]

Well I think that two of my three Encore frames were registered rifle frames to the best of my knowledge. All 3 of my Contender frames (1 G2 and 2 old style) are registered pistol frames. I emailed TC and here is the reply. Made my day.

-----Original Message-----
From: Danielle Cameron [mailto:DCameron@tcarms.com]
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2008 10:16 AM
To: etk7027
Subject: RE: Question


They were sold as pistol frames. Thank you and have a good day.

Danielle, Customer Service Rep.
 
603-330-5659 ext. 536

 

-----Original Message-----
From: etk7027   
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 7:23 PM
To: tca_customerservice
Subject: Question
Importance: High

Hello,
Could you tell me if Contender frame serial numbers 34XXXXX and 9XXXX
were
sold as a pistol or rifle frame?

Thanks

[30-06man]

I am leaving my Encore as a rifle and that's it. I am not going to be the one that is trying to figure this out in court.

[Davemuzz]

I'm gonna keep swappin 'em out....."COME AND GET ME COPPER"

Dave

[30-06man]

Now I know my Contender is going to stay as a pistol though. I never really liked the Encore as a pistol. Too heavy.

[Dago1]

Pay close attention to the next Encore commercial on the Outdoor Channel. "Encore, a gun for all seasons......rifle, shotgun and muzzle loader"..................   I don't ever remember seeing any pistol barrel, pistol grip or pistol forearm floating around in their commercial.
I have to agree with GB on this one, TC could end the the confusion once and for all in "ONE" press release.

[Davemuzz]

Pay close attention to the next Encore commercial on the Outdoor Channel. "Encore, a gun for all seasons......rifle, shotgun and muzzle loader"..................   I don't ever remember seeing any pistol barrel, pistol grip or pistol forearm floating around in their commercial.
I have to agree with GB on this one, TC could end the the confusion once and for all in "ONE" press release.

Well, again, I'm not a lawyer...but that would be similar to GM issuing a press release stating that their vehicles roll over less than any other vehicle manufacture. While the statement (if it's true and I have no idea if it is or isn't) may be true....that may be on facts for the USA as a whole. But perhaps in West Virgina, GM accounts for more than 50% of rollovers. I can see the WV lawyers droolin already.

Don't count on T\C poking the Bear. Not while the Bear is sleeping.

MHO

Dave

[30-06man]

Pay close attention to the next Encore commercial on the Outdoor Channel. "Encore, a gun for all seasons......rifle, shotgun and muzzle loader"..................   I don't ever remember seeing any pistol barrel, pistol grip or pistol forearm floating around in their commercial.
I have to agree with GB on this one, TC could end the the confusion once and for all in "ONE" press release.

Well, again, I'm not a lawyer...but that would be similar to GM issuing a press release stating that their vehicles roll over less than any other vehicle manufacture. While the statement (if it's true and I have no idea if it is or isn't) may be true....that may be on facts for the USA as a whole. But perhaps in West Virgina, GM accounts for more than 50% of rollovers. I can see the WV lawyers droolin already.

Don't count on T\C poking the Bear. Not while the Bear is sleeping.

MHO

Dave

I have to agree 100%.

[tree rat]

hope I can simplify this.   frame shipped from tc as a pistol can be converted to a rifle ONCE!!!! but can not be converted back to a pistol without being in violation of the law UNLESS the proper forms and tax are paid. this is a fact, I do not like it but it is correct! a frame shipped from tc as a long gun must stay that way unless tax and forms long gun with local chief law enforcement and batfe .

[LONGTOM]

Just a quickie here!
I bought a encore frame bare, no wood at a gun shop on a Sunday. How is a person going to know what it came from the factory as?
Can't find out till Monday, by then it may be to late, frame may be gone.
I havn't read all of the posts on this one yet, so I won't coment on the legal aspects.

LONGTOM

[LONGTOM]

Ok, I have now read all of the posts and up to speed on the full question. I believe it is true that TC reports all sales as pistol frames, and there for can be assembled as either one as long as barrel lengths are of the legal length. I do know for sure that if you have in your possession a pistol length barrel you had better have a pistol grip for it also. If the said barrel is on the frame the grip must also be on the frame, FACT!!! Without the pistol grip it is considered an ilegal rifle or shotgun depending on the barrel on the frame. I do not know about the other way around, ie: having a frame set up as a pistol and only being in possession of a rifle barrel. I would think this would only make it a long barreled pistol, NOT SURE.
I don't recall ever hearing or reading anywhere in TCs ads or their catalogs, or from any licensed dealer a warning about converting a rifle frame to a pistol configuration. I would think that if it was illegal there would be a WARNING in TCs catalog and in their ads. Has anyone who ever bought an extra pistol length barrel ever been warned about the possible legality of which way this barrel may be used? I think not. I know I have never been told!

LONGTOM

[Keith L]

This is a subject of constant debate among TC owners.  I recommend reading the Supreme Court decision and basing your decision on that.  It clearly allows changing a CONTENDER from pistol to rifle, but does not address any other changes.  The same logic should apply to Encores, but they are not part of the decision (not having been made at the time).  Also, I suspect that Contenders were not sold as rifles then either, just pistols. 

A couple of points:  This ruling only applies to Federal law, not state or local.  Also each one of us needs to decide what it is worth to them to have peace of mind on this issue.  I only buy frames that I know are pistols so that I am in conformance.  You need to do what you want.

[Davemuzz]

Well Keith....that certainty clears it up for everyone....who doesn't live in one of the 50 States that is.

Dave

[Keith L]

Well Keith....that certainty clears it up for everyone....who doesn't live in one of the 50 States that is.

Dave

This is one that may never be clear. 

[Davemuzz]

This is one that may never be clear. 

True.


Dave

[Redhawk1]

I have 4 Encore Frames, I use them all as pistols. I purchased 2 as pistol frames new. The other two I bought the frames from others and they used them as pistol frames. But I don't have any idea how they were sold or purchased as before I got them.  But I will keep using them as pistol's.

[Davemuzz]

I have 4 Encore Frames, I use them all as pistols. I purchased 2 as pistol frames new. The other two I bought the frames from others and they used them as pistol frames. But I don't have any idea how they were sold or purchased as before I got them.  But I will keep using them as pistol's.

Yeah. I agree with you. I kind of look at it like this: If local law enforcement has nothing better to do than to run down my use of T\C frames, then something's wrong with my local law enforcements objectives. Now, if I were a "bad guy" that would be different. But if they are going to put efforts into that direction.....there would just be something gone haywire with enforcement resources.

MHO

Dave

[Muddyboots]

OK, the $64,000 dollar question. Has anyone sent the ATF letter to TC for their response to ATF's position? To NRA? If so, what was their response?

[SLAVAGE]

in PA they made it simple a few months ago
all guns like the tc were you can convert it to a rifle/pistol must be regestered as a pistol.. even if you had one as a rifle and sell it... it can go in the books as a pistol saves a lot of issues unless your under 21 up here

Dave

[dakotashooter2]

All I can say that if I was on the wrong end of this type of legal battle I assure you that TC WOULD be getting involved in one manner or another that would force them to make some kind of designation or make that information publicly available.    While they may not be responsible for how a customer assembles a frame I think a jury might find them responsible for failing to provide a second or third buyer adequate information pertinant to the legal assembly. While TC does provide some such information, without knowing the origin of the frame it can be useless and or inaccurate.

[encore3006]

 !

[expeditionx]

Registration is a state/local matter. That Federal form 4477 or some such number (I really never pay attention to the number of it) is what's gonna come back to bite ya in the butt. It requires a check mark in a block as handgun, riifle or shotgun. One of them has to be checked so even a frame is marked as one of the three on the FEDERAL form that matters.

Still TC reports all production to BATFE just like all makers do. I sure wish we could get a real answer from them or BATFE on how they are reported. I'm not sure if production is reported by SN or only by quantity. If quantity only and not all are reported the same then that really leaves things wide open in a way as the ONLY document that can determine a frame's status is that federal form kept by the selling dealer until he closes his doors and forwards them to BATFE. That would make it almost impossible to know without a major investigation so they couldn't know at a traffic stop or some such event.

When asked, the manufacturer has to report the serial number and type of gun (pistol, rifle, shotgun).
I called TC a while back and talked to customer service about this.

[expeditionx]

I'm gonna keep swappin 'em out....."COME AND GET ME COPPER"

Dave

Thats not a good thing to post on a public forum.
Randy Weaver lost a son and his wife in the 1990's due to ignoring Federal Gun Laws.
The FBI killed both of them at Ruby Ridge do a search. Waco was also based on a similar excuse
to invade. Why invite trouble?

[Davemuzz]

I'm gonna keep swappin 'em out....."COME AND GET ME COPPER"

Dave

Thats not a good thing to post on a public forum.
Randy Weaver lost a son and his wife in the 1990's due to ignoring Federal Gun Laws.
The FBI killed both of them at Ruby Ridge do a search. Waco was also based on a similar excuse
to invade. Why invite trouble?

Main Entry: sar·casm
              Function: noun
              : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
              Synonyms see wit

Expidition....the above is from Websters. Read it. Study it. Then go back and re-read my post. But perhaps, first....please go to the video store and rent some movies about the 1920's and 30's Gangster's that ran New York and Chicago. Then you will see the irony in the "Come and get me Copper" line that I used. You see....the three smiley faces that follow that are ment for humor.

Did you spend the first 20 years of your life in a cardboard box or what? Invite trouble? Call 'em in to take out my family? What kind of idiot are you? ITS CALLED HUMOR YOU FOOL.

Please tell me what State you live in. I will for sure avoid ever driving thru it. In fact, I won't even fly over it.

Dave

[expeditionx]

I'm gonna keep swappin 'em out....."COME AND GET ME COPPER"

Dave

Thats not a good thing to post on a public forum.
Randy Weaver lost a son and his wife in the 1990's due to ignoring Federal Gun Laws.
The FBI killed both of them at Ruby Ridge do a search. Waco was also based on a similar excuse
to invade. Why invite trouble?

Main Entry: sar·casm
              Function: noun
              : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual
              Synonyms see wit

Expidition....the above is from Websters. Read it. Study it. Then go back and re-read my post. But perhaps, first....please go to the video store and rent some movies about the 1920's and 30's Gangster's that ran New York and Chicago. Then you will see the irony in the "Come and get me Copper" line that I used. You see....the three smiley faces that follow that are ment for humor.

Did you spend the first 20 years of your life in a cardboard box or what? Invite trouble? Call 'em in to take out my family? What kind of idiot are you? ITS CALLED HUMOR YOU FOOL.

Please tell me what State you live in. I will for sure avoid ever driving thru it. In fact, I won't even fly over it.

Dave

I suggest you see a profesional to deal with your anger issues that cause you to insult others for
no reason at all. Sarcasm doesn't easily translate in writing. In case you didn't know, those Gov
agency people have no humor and would not see any sarcasm in what you wrote. Try and behave
a little more dignified in a public forum.

[Graybeard]

I agree the use of the terms idiot and fool were uncalled for. You can express yourself better than that and should in the future.

[Davemuzz]

I agree the use of the terms idiot and fool were uncalled for. You can express yourself better than that and should in the future.

GB,

Your right and I apologize to Expeditionx for the use of those terms. What I should have said was "Where do you fall on the intellect scale?" and "Perhaps if you don't see the sarcasm, then you may be perceived to be a bit foolish."

As far as Expeditionx providing me with advice, I'll keep that in mind the next time I make a trip to the throne room. The advice wasn't ask for, isn't wanted, nor needed. I've dealt with  Government Agency employees my entire working career. And Expeditionx is right....they may be without humor....but a public forum is a great place to tell them just that.

And Expeditionx, if your looking for "dignity" I'm sure you will find it on many a post here......just don't respond to one of mine. If I need advice I'll ask my 82 year old Dad. You sir, are not my Dad.

Dave

[youthpastorjon]

I recently was in my local gun shop and was speaking with the gentleman behind the counter.  After looking at several Contender and Encore handgun configurations I asked him the $1,000,000 question.  Is it possible to legally register my Encore as a handgun or am I better off buying another frame and buying it as a handgun when I purchase it.  He responded that he owns many encores and contenders and has bought many of them as a rifle.  He then proceeds to add that gun on his pistol permit. So in essence what he told me was that I could register my rifle as a pistol in the great state of NY and it will then be a legal handgun.  It seems like it should make sense.  Why would the local/state authorities allow you to register a gun if in fact it was illegal to do so?  This man claims he has done it for years and it is completely legal.

[Keith L]

While that most likely takes care of the state the feds seem to have a different idea.  Some day there will be case law on this and we can be done with it.  For now the only case law is for a Contender, and is for changing from a pistol to a rifle.

[youthpastorjon]

So my question would be this.  What happens if you have the local and state give you thumbs up and the feds come after you?  If you have all the legal documentation I don't think they could do a whole lot could they? Plus if I am in the field hunting and get questioned I will show my local/state law enforcement all my legal paper work and they will never do anything because I am legal.  Therefore, I will never even speak to the feds.  Right? This whole topic really is frustrating.