Legality of rifle/handgun in an Encore

[Davemuzz]

Well, aren't you guys getting into the "issue" or a discussion of "States rights"? Where each State has the power to make the determination of what laws will and won't apply to the citizens who reside in that State? Then, if that State passes a law that seems incredibly stupid (Like D.C. did with the "you can't own a hand gun law") then you can appeal it all the way to the Federal Supreme Court where those batch of robed folks are suppose to sort out "real" from "stupid". And then.....it's the "Law of The Land" and applies to all States. 'Cause there may be other States out there that have passed similar "stupid laws" (can anyone say Kalifornia?).

So, if your State permits you to take a previously registered T\C rifle frame, and now re-register it as a handgun frame.....what the heck does the Federal Government have to do with that?

I'm not saying "this is the answer".....I'm just muddying up the already unclear water some more.

Dave   

[Keith L]

Like I said before also, do what you want to.  You are going to anyway.  And if you get tangled up with the BATF the rest of us will have the answer to your questions.  I plan to stay with what I KNOW is legal since the Supreme Court decision.  I don't have lots of extra life to waste on fooling around with the feds.

[expeditionx]

So my question would be this.  What happens if you have the local and state give you thumbs up and the feds come after you?  If you have all the legal documentation I don't think they could do a whole lot could they? Plus if I am in the field hunting and get questioned I will show my local/state law enforcement all my legal paper work and they will never do anything because I am legal.  Therefore, I will never even speak to the feds.  Right? This whole topic really is frustrating. 

Once a gun has been configured as a rifle, the Feds always consider it a rifle forever.
Once it is a rifle, putting on a barrel with less than 16 inch length is a felony in all states
of the US, unless you have a legal Federal Tax Stamp which would then exempt such
an act. Its a federal law. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148636.0.html
Registering the gun in a state, county, city, or otherwise does not supercede a Federal
law that requires certain paperwork to be processed for you to legally be able to own a
short barrel rifle. As weird as it seems, putting a short barrel on a contender or encore
that has been configured as least one time previously as a rifle(with buttstock) is taken
as seriously with the ATF as making a silencer(noise suppressor) or machine gun, which
means 10 years in club Fed all expenses paid by Uncle Sam.

[youthpastorjon]

  [/quote]
Once a gun has been configured as a rifle, the Feds always consider it a rifle forever.
Once it is a rifle, putting on a barrel with less than 16 inch length is a felony in all states
of the US, unless you have a legal Federal Tax Stamp which would then exempt such
an act. Its a federal law. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148636.0.html
Registering the gun in a state, county, city, or otherwise does not supercede a Federal
law that requires certain paperwork to be processed for you to legally be able to own a
short barrel rifle. As weird as it seems, putting a short barrel on a contender or encore
that has been configured as least one time previously as a rifle(with buttstock) is taken
as seriously with the ATF as making a silencer(noise suppressor) or machine gun, which
means 10 years in club Fed all expenses paid by Uncle Sam.
[/quote]
Makes sense.  Notice I never said I was going to do it.  I could buy a used G2 ready to fire and it would probably cost me the same as it would to set up my Encore as a handgun.  Plus you can't put a pricetag on piece of mind. I was just sharing thoughts on what a local guy in a gun shop told me.  (and like many of you, you can probably attest to some of the whacked out things you have heard at your local gun shop)

[iiranger]

I am  not a lawyer, but I am a paralegal. This is "law" and better than other options --violence-- but far from perfect. "Can of Worms?" "Sewer?" Choose your favorite description. Probably fits.

We all owe T/C a big debt for fighting this and winning.

Back in days after gangsters... Prohibition (of alcohol) was repealed in 1932. GCA (Gun Control Act) was passed in 1934...  During prohibition small time booze runners had taken a hack saw to the family shotgun or rifle to make a more "handy" weapon. In GCA '34 Congress made it a crime to shorten a two handed weapon. T/C brought out a single shot pistol AND THEN offerred a kit to make the pistol (one handed weapon) into a carbine, a two handed weapon. Bureaucrats, dull as always, assumed that if it was against the law to "shorten" a two handed weapon, THEN it must also be against the law to "lenghten" a one handed weapon. Supreme Court said WRONG! [Would make life easier/simpler for bureaucrats and make it appear they are doing their jobs...]

REMEMBER!!! Other laws apply. Barrel must be 18 inches for shotgun (smoothbore). 16 inches for a rifle. Over all length of non hand gun must be 26 inches...

As said, if you get caught, you are DAMNED DUMB!

It would seem that a 30 inch shotgun barrel with the pistol grip on the frame would be legal. [i). See previous sentence/paragraph. ii). I don't want to shoot that monster...]

I suspect, since Encore came out after the decision, that Encores are carefully registered by serial as to sold with buttstock (and thereby a "rifle/shotgun/muzzle loader") or with a pistol grip (and thereby a "handgun!!!"). Now with the older Contenders most of which were "handguns" to start... "zoo time."

So if you are some flavor of A__hole... White Supremacist. (Black Supremacist???) Radical feminist? Let's not forget the annoying... Lenny Bruce, although he did use drugs... More recently Mr. Carlin... THEN the "law" is going to be watching and "playing with guns" is risky... all around... Or if some fed or other "cop" needs a "bust"... (the "out of towner" who got accused of cattle rustling and hanged in the "B" westerns) and you happen to put a rifle barrel on your handgun before you remove the pistol grips... Or a pistol barrel on your rifle with the buttstock on... Wheeeee... You will be punished (as Mr. F. Bailey loved to say) by the legal fees, at least... luck.

[Davemuzz]

expeditionx, Who I have previously questioned concerning where on the sliding scale of intellect did he fall, (please review prior post) has provided us with this link. http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148636.0.html.  Now, from this link...at the very bottom of this case of U.S. vs. Thompson Center Arms, is the conclusion which I have copied and pasted in part as follows: It is proper, therefore, to apply the rule of lenity and resolve the ambiguity in Thompson/Center's favor. See Crandon v. United States, 494 U.S. 152, 168 (1990) (applying lenity in interpreting a criminal statute invoked in a civil action); Commissioner v. Acker,361 U.S. 87, 91 (1959). [n.9]  Accordingly, we conclude that the Contender pistol and carbine kit when packaged together by Thompson/Center have not been "made" into a short barreled rifle for purposes of the NFA.

Now, as I have read this June 8, 1992 Case, T\C was packaging and selling a combo pack with a rifle and pistol barrel. The Federal Government case was that this violated the registration of firearms and each of these combo packs were subject to the $200 registration fee.

As you can see from the U.S. Supreme Courts Opinion and Ruling, the Court agreed with T\C that it was not "made into a short barrel rifle for purposes of the NFA".

Well boys.....it seems that's pretty clear. The Supreme Court of the United States said that T\C issued a combo pack that did not violate the law.

Oh, BTW....some time ago I contacted T\C about my 2 Contender frames. It seems they were both originally issued as pistols and now I have a letter from them that states this. But, from the looks of things, I don't know if I really needed it.

Oh, and if anyone can tell me what iiranger post is suppose to be saying, please do so. Perhaps if it's translated into English that would be great. I've read it 3 times and I have no freaking idea what it's suppose to mean. But hey, maybe it's just me.

Dave

[expeditionx]

The TC  Supreme Court case deals with whether a box of parts constitutes an NFA regulated
weapon being a short barrel rifle. The Supreme Court said no the parts alone do not. That
court case did not exempt making a pistol from a rifle. Therefore, the ATF has made it their
policy to make reconfiguration back to a pistol illegal. Thats pretty clear regardless of intelect
level.

Quote:
We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle,
a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

[Davemuzz]

The TC  Supreme Court case deals with whether a box of parts constitutes an NFA regulated
weapon being a short barrel rifle. The Supreme Court said no the parts alone do not. That
court case did not exempt making a pistol from a rifle. Therefore, the ATF has made it their
policy to make reconfiguration back to a pistol illegal. Thats pretty clear regardless of intelect
level.

Maybe not so much. If you actually read the case, you will determine that the "box of parts" they are referring to are (1) the frame, (2) the rifle stock and the handgun stock, and (3) the rifle barrel and the pistol barrel.

QUOTE:
Accordingly, we conclude that the Contender pistol and carbine kit when packaged together by Thompson/Center have not been "made" into a short barreled rifle for purposes of the NFA. [n.10]  The judgment of the Court of Appeals is therefore

Affirmed.

Dave

[expeditionx]

I have read the case 10 times over. The point I was making is that
having a short barrel, long barrel, receiver, pistol grip, and buttstock all
unassembled together does not equal having a short barrel rifle.
The parts alone, in this case, does not constitute intent, infraction of law,
or any other possible reason for a prison sentence. I'm terribly sorry you
can not seem to grasp this concept at this time. Regardless, the case
in question DID NOT set a precedence to allow reconfiguration of a rifle
to a pistol. Surely, an intellectual giant such as yourself Mr. Muzz will eventually
come to an understanding of why you can not reason with ATF policy.
Maybe, if you write them yourself, you also will receive an official answer
like the gentleman on the other forum did.
Firearms Technology Branch
244 Needy Road Martinsburg, WV
        25401
 

[Davemuzz]

My Grandma always told me not to poke the Bear. She was a smart woman, my Grandma. Made a darn good apple pie from memory and the best turtle soup I've ever had. And I've tried a lot.

The letter you refer to in http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=031a6b979e305589a57844f0522b4245&t=347669 from BATF states to that gentleman, that once you convert your T\C from a pistol or handgun form to a rifle, you cannot convert it back to a pistol. Now, I'm not going to post if this is in fact correct or incorrect. I'm just pointing out what this gentleman has stated HIS letter from BATF says. Of course, we can't actually see the letter, just his post of what the letter says.

Now, as you have so eloquently stated: I have read the case 10 times over. The point I was making is that
having a short barrel, long barrel, receiver, pistol grip, and buttstock all
unassembled together does not equal having a short barrel rifle.
The parts alone, in this case, does not constitute intent, infraction of law,
or any other possible reason for a prison sentence...........Regardless, the case
in question DID NOT set a precedence to allow reconfiguration of a rifle
to a pistol.

So....Since it's my understanding that the U.S. Supreme Courts rulings are in fact "the law of the land", and this is a U.S. Supreme Court ruling, exactly what issue does this case address? And how does it apply to the "little people" who buy these T\C products and put them together?

Perhaps we need an Einstein to tell us that in less than 25 words?

Dave 

[expeditionx]

Someone has a scanned pdf posted online for anyone to access.
Link to the letter posted online read post #36 of the thread.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=4773959&posted=1#post4773959
The top of page two answers their position clearly.
Speaking of the Contender or Encore, converting
a rifle configuration to a pistol configuration creates
an NFA regulated firearm, which is a felony unless
you have filed the proper paper work and paid your
$200 tax. Which is what I said before.
 

[smong2000]

Why are WE fighting about this  Our interpretation doesn't mean a thing if this ever goes to court.  Both sides here are 100% convinced that they understand the law.  The information is out there as ambiguous as it seems for everyone to study.  Do whatever you choose that lets you sleep comfortably at night and let's stick together as a brotherhood of switch-barrel lovers.

[Davemuzz]

Someone has a scanned...........

Yeah.....Most of the T\C owners who have looked at this issue have see this letter. It would appear that BATF is looking at this case as "T\C Corporate specific".

If you read the one fellows post, it would appear that BATF's position is that once you convert your T\C to a rifle , you can never legally put it back to a pistol unless you pay the $200 fee. How nutz is that?

Oh, I answered my question of exactly what issue does this case address? since, on the sliding scale of intellect, someone has chosen to ignore that question. Tough one eh?

Dave

[expeditionx]

Once again,the case was about TC marketing a box of parts as a kit that could be
made into a pistol or into a carbine. The ATF felt this is bad idea because it opens
pandoras box of possibilities, and it could easily get someone that does not understand
how the law applies into big trouble. They decided to go after TC to get them to stop
marketing the 'box o parts' on the premise that it constitutes (a potential) a violation
of NFA law.   
http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/tc.html
Quote form the case:
On January 13, 1992, Stephen P. Halbrook argued in the Supreme Court of the United States on behalf of Thompson/Center Arms Company concerning whether certain pistol and rifle components constituted a short-barreled rifle subject to the registration and taxation requirements of the National Firearms Act, Chapter 53 of the Internal Revenue Code.

the next quoted line is very key to what the argument is about

The Court stated the issue to be whether a short-barreled rifle is "made" by the aggregation of finished parts that can be readily assembled.

The government noted that a bicycle is still a bicycle even when unassembled. The Court rejects this analogy, because the Contender items can be assembled three different ways, and are intended to be assembled only two ways.

Thats what the case was based on "parts that could potentially form an NFA controlled gun."
The Court ruled that because it was also possible to configure the kit into a legal configuration
 the ATF could not rule the kit as an automatic violation (waiting to happen).

Thus, the Court applies the rule of lenity,[6] i.e., that ambiguous criminal statutes are interpreted against the government and in favor of persons to whom they may apply, and concludes that the Contender pistol and carbine kit are not a short-barreled rifle.

Therefore, the kit is now legal to sell, but what the end user does with it might not
be in every possible way. This leads back to the fact that the burden is left upon
buyer as to what can be done with these parts. Most buyers of TC parts are not going
to understand how quickly they could potentialy become a felon by reconfiguring.

Well, thats about everything that relates to this issue. The court case recap, the official
ATF position on the other post prior to this one, and a simplified explanation of what
leads to a felony act in regards to TC configuration. If thats not enough to settle this issue,
we might as well be arguing about whether or not it is legal to convert a semi-auto pistol
to a machine gun or about making homemade grenades. I'm sure even with that topic a
few are going to argue "we can do whatever we want because the law is too vague to
 really know either way." A federal judge will not consider ignorance as an exceptable
excuse. I think all these dumb laws are unconstitutional, but I will not risk getting into
trouble over a lapse of personal judgement. 




 

[Davemuzz]

It would appear that BATF is looking at this case as "T\C Corporate specific".

Yeah, we both said the same thing....except I said it in less than 25 words.

The crazy part is the U.S. Supreme Court said it's legal to sell a "kit" consisting of a frame, pistol & rifle barrel, and pistol stocks & rifle stocks, its legal to buy the kit.  But the Court was silent...and BATF position is.... once you put the rifle kit together.....don't change it to a pistol.....because once you do this (without sending us the form and $200) you are in violation of the law!

Well, I've always said if you look to the law for logic, your never going to find it there.

I can (yes....you read that right...CAN) understand BATF's position on this matter. BATF's position is really not any different than the NRA's position on gun rights. BATF doesn't want a "crack" in the door to develop on the legalities of shorting a long gun without their knowing about it...and who is doing it. Understandable....especially with todays fanatical religious organizations. 

On the "common sense" side, if your going to spend $200...I would do what I've done and spend $250 and just buy another Contender frame. Keep one for rifle and one for handguns. Why give the Federal Government your hard earned bucks?

Expeditionx, on the other hand, you did a nice job on the analysis of the case and the conclusion. I'm sure your not such a bad guy. Peace.

Dave

[30-06man]

This brings up other issues as stated somewhere else in this thread. A TC ML is registered as a rifle if it is a Contender or an Encore according to my local gun shop. This leads me to believe the pistol is registered as a pistol only but I would think you could put a ML barrel on it and a butt stock and be legal since ML's do not have to be registered. If it cost a extra $200 to have your Encore or Contender made into a pistol you might as well buy another frame.

[30-06man]

Also my gunshop said that you have to at least be 21 to buy an Encore which throws more crap into it.

[expeditionx]

This brings up other issues as stated somewhere else in this thread. A TC ML is registered as a rifle if it is a Contender or an Encore according to my local gun shop. This leads me to believe the pistol is registered as a pistol only but I would think you could put a ML barrel on it and a butt stock and be legal since ML's do not have to be registered. If it cost a extra $200 to have your Encore or Contender made into a pistol you might as well buy another frame.

You might be confusing State registration with a Federal NFA registration.
The main point from earlier is that once a buttstock goes on it is Federally classified
as a rifle forever. Once it becomes a rifle because of the buttstock  even if you
remove the buttstock it remains classified as a rifle which makes assembling a short barrel
onto it a felony regardless if it started out as a pistol. So technically, putting a buttstock
on a pistol legally destroys its ability to ever be used as a pistol again. Not that the Feds
are easily going to know that, but thats how they have the rules. A while back I was almost
going to buy a mech tech carbine conversion to make a pistol receiver into a carbine.
I'm glad I did not.

[Davemuzz]

The main point from earlier is that once a buttstock goes on it is Federally classified
as a rifle forever. Once it becomes a rifle because of the buttstock  even if you
remove the buttstock it remains classified as a rifle which makes assembling a short barrel
onto it a felony regardless if it started out as a pistol. So technically, putting a buttstock
on a pistol legally destroys its ability to ever be used as a pistol again. Not that the Feds
are easily going to know that, but thats how they have the rules.

IMHO....and remember MHO & $1.25 will get you a cup of coffee at the local gas station...and that's a small coffee...if you want a large buy your own  ... But I think this is an excellent summary of BATF's position on the whole matter.

Moral of the story?....Buy 2 frames...help out the good people at T\C!! Oh...and if your gonna get that photo op of the trophy you just took with your T\C...and you bought it as a rifle and shot the trophy with it configured as a handgun?....don't put the gun in the pic!!!!! (This is not intended to be legal advice and only intended to be of a humors nature). (Oh damn....the black suite guys are surrounding my house now......what are all these little red dots on my chest???)

Da......

[Keith L]

I just saw the new X Files movie, and did see in there the feds DO have black helecopters...

[expeditionx]

Found another one

[LONGTOM]

So regardless of which side of this fence you stand on the just of the matter is what if you find a used TC pistol or frame with grip in an ad or at your local gun shop, a gun show or a pawn shop. They don't call TC to see what it was sold as original.
I bet if you asked them they could not tell you. If it was originally a rifle when sold new and somewhere along the line it was changed to a pistol then would not they be selling you an illegal hand gun? How the devil am I suppose to know, if they don't even know. I do know that if you have in your position a pistol barrel on the gun it better have a pistol grip as well. Also if you have a rifle butt stock you better have a rifle length barrel to go with it. BUTT STOCK-LONG BARREL, PISTOL GRIP-SHORT BARREL! Sounds simple to me, but what do I know.


LONGTOM

[expeditionx]

So regardless of which side of this fence you stand on the just of the matter is what if you find a used TC pistol or frame with grip in an ad or at your local gun shop, a gun show or a pawn shop. They don't call TC to see what it was sold as original.
I bet if you asked them they could not tell you. If it was originally a rifle when sold new and somewhere along the line it was changed to a pistol then would not they be selling you an illegal hand gun? How the devil am I suppose to know, if they don't even know. I do know that if you have in your position a pistol barrel on the gun it better have a pistol grip as well. Also if you have a rifle butt stock you better have a rifle length barrel to go with it. BUTT STOCK-LONG BARREL, PISTOL GRIP-SHORT BARREL! Sounds simple to me, but what do I know.


LONGTOM

TC's customer service dept should be able to inform anyone that calls
about their frame.

However, keeping in mind about what you just mentioned.
If you purchased your gun used as a long gun, and the 4473 form
at the dealer states long gun, and you call TC and they tell you
it was originally a pistol, then you now have a paper trail that
says converted to long gun. Then one day your driving down
the road and get pulled over. A law enforcement officer decides
to call in your serial numbers to satisfy his protocol. Maybe
it was stolen 10 years ago before it ended up at a gun shop
as a used weapon. The ATF gets called in and they track
the gun to the dealer you bought it from. They notice
long gun on the 4473, but you have it in pistol configuration.
Mr. ______ are you aware that your weapon is not only stolen
but has been illegally converted to a short barrel rifle.
I thought TC settled that in court a while back.
I just didn't know........................
Silence.............................................
Agent: You have the right to remain silent. Anything.......


Anyway its always better to know for sure one way or another.
It costs too much to get caught in your zipper if you know
what I mean.










 

[LONGTOM]

Speaking only of used TCs, if it was bought from a licensed ffl dealer as a pistol and it was sold new as a rifle I would think that it would be the ffl holders responsibility to know what it is suppose to be and not sell it until the issue was resolved.
Sure calling TC would clear up the matter as to what it's suppose to be but it's SUNDAY and you are at a gun show with no way to call TC and find out.
Another point, when someone buys a used gun of any type, how many people ask the question (HAVE YOU CHECKED TO SEE IF THIS GUN HAS EVER BEEN REPORTED STOLEN).
Probably should but I know I have never thought of it until now!
Just a thought.


LONGTOM

[Keith L]

A few years ago a co-worker bought a revolver from another guy at work, and then tried to get it registered.  Turns out it had been stolen, and the seller (who also may have been the stealer) was long gone.  The honest guy lost his money and had a hard time explaining what happened.

[LONGTOM]

ALWAYS MAKE THEM SIGN A RECEAT!!!


LONGTOM

[Keith L]

ALWAYS MAKE THEM SIGN A RECEAT!!!


LONGTOM

Which only helps if you can find them.

[kiddekop]

A few years ago a co-worker bought a revolver from another guy at work, and then tried to get it registered.  Turns out it had been stolen, and the seller (who also may have been the stealer) was long gone.  The honest guy lost his money and had a hard time explaining what happened.

Honest guy didn't think it out before buying, get the serial # and run it by your local law enforcement to see if it's ok before making a purchase a receipt only means you bought a stolen weapon & can be arrested for possession of stolen property in this state it's a felony, get convicted & lose your right to own any firearms for life.I buy from dealers only in this era but I'm retired from LE .

[kiddekop]

So regardless of which side of this fence you stand on the just of the matter is what if you find a used TC pistol or frame with grip in an ad or at your local gun shop, a gun show or a pawn shop. They don't call TC to see what it was sold as original.
I bet if you asked them they could not tell you. If it was originally a rifle when sold new and somewhere along the line it was changed to a pistol then would not they be selling you an illegal hand gun? How the devil am I suppose to know, if they don't even know. I do know that if you have in your position a pistol barrel on the gun it better have a pistol grip as well. Also if you have a rifle butt stock you better have a rifle length barrel to go with it. BUTT STOCK-LONG BARREL, PISTOL GRIP-SHORT BARREL! Sounds simple to me, but what do I know.


LONGTOM

I have 2 encore receivers  registered as handguns before calif stopped the sales.TC Encore & Contenders weren't sold in CA for a few years because the CA DOJ wanted drop testing for every caliber attached to the receiver which would have run into 100s of thousands of dollars.Finally that was over turned via new legislation and TC  resumed sales in CA but each receiver had to be purchased with a barrel attached ,my new receiver had a handgun barrel & was registered as such.I have one receiver that I keep separate for my rifle barrels and the other 2 for handgun barrels.I found a CA dealer on line who was selling Encore receivers w/o barrels and advised him the new rules required all receivers have a barrel attached ,at first he told me  I was wrong then he did some checking,apologized and thanked me for my concern.

[TLARbb]

Both of my conteders were purchased as handguns.  One has been "made into a rifle" by adding the Carbine kit.  I am using only pistol barrels on the original Super 14 I purchased and only rifle barrels and buttstocks on the other.  It is the only reasonable way around this beaurocratic mess.  I my case the Contender pistol is the original, hard to open version and the newer Carbine has the easy-open upgrade (came that way).  It makes it easy to tell which is which and making the pistol harder to open is a safety feature in my mind should any child happen across it.  So I think I have worked my ownership program into one that will work within the law as it currently exists. 

If I buy an Encore, it will be a rifle and remain one.  The Contender pistol will handle all of the pistol calibers I will ever need to shoot and the Encore is a much better rifle platform than the Contender.  The Contender Carbine will remain in limited use with its .22 lr and .30-30 barrels.

My feeling is that two dedicated frames are a much more cost effective method of compliance than sending $200 to the BATFE to volunteer for their "manufacturer" database.

EJ