Author Topic: Another hunter shot  (Read 2574 times)

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Offline Qtip

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Another hunter shot
« on: November 27, 2007, 01:10:33 AM »
On Thanksgiving day a hunter was shot in Otsego County. He was not a local; nor was the person who shot him. The shooter had just hit a buck and took the second shot as the deer ran. The second shot hit the other hunter. They were only about 150' apart; from different hunting parties, and neither had any blaze orange. Both were dressed in FULL CAMO!!!!! IMHO I think it is time we have blaze orange law for firearms deer season;  early bear, and muzzleloader seasons.

Update on fatal shooting last week. Took place in the town of Minden in Montgomery County and a grandson did shoot his grandfather.

Qtip
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Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2007, 03:59:40 AM »
Although I am generally against laws that try to protect us from ourselves, I agree with mandatory blaze orange, but only during big game season.  The above incident shows the foolishness of wearing full camo:  other hunters can't see you!  With the availability of camo orange available, we have the dual benefits of having a pattern that breaks up our appearance while making us more visible to other hunters.

I have actually had another hunter tell me I was wrong because if I couldn't see him I couldn't shoot him!  The above incident proves that wrong, and should be used whenever that argument comes up.  Another argument is that the hunters are from the same party and they all know where the others are.  I suppose that they all stay in one place and do not move around at all.

Much of my clothing and accessories are camo, but I wear a camo orange vest over it and wear a orange hat.  I have seen a hunter wearing an orange hat about 1/2 mile away moving up a brush-covered hillside.  I knew immediately what it was, deer do not wear blaze orange!

Offline james

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2007, 05:17:48 AM »
We have the blaze orange requirement here in Arkansas but some of the accident prone folks just fall out of their tree stands.  One had a restraint but died from the constriction and hanging in the tree for several hours.  I have seen people in the woods with their camo on during gun season and I question their intelligence.  They may be the ones falling out of the tree stands. I haven't heard of any fatalities from gun shots this year.

Offline NYH1

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2007, 06:02:26 AM »
I'm all for a blaze orange law during any firearm (rifle/shotgun/muzzleloader) big game season.  In fact we have a blaze orange rule at our hunting camp.  If you're hunting with a firearm or are going to be in the woods for any other reason while someone else is hunting with one, you have to wear at least a blaze orange vest.  If you don't wear one, you don't hunt or go in the woods, simple as that.   
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Offline lonewolf5348

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 11:29:16 AM »
I was surprised to find out a few years back while hunting in shotgun county I came across a hunter in full camo:I have to say when he moved a few feet from me he scared the hell out of me I asked him what the hell are you doing in the woods during deer gun season with out any red or orange on or a least a hat :He stated it was not required by law to wear orange in shotgun area.I always thought orange vest was a must. maybe slugs don't kill ??
I hunt PA and you must have 250 square " of orange and a hat otherwise the fine is $250.00 and when Pa bow season overrides the turkey season you must wear orange to your stand and place it at the base of a tree near you when bowhunting.
I myself even when it M/L seson only I still wear a least a hat my life is more important then shooting a deer.

Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2007, 11:43:11 AM »
The funny part is in NY where blaze orange is not mandatory, we have fewer shootings per hunter than states with a mandatory orange law have. We are one of the safest states in the country.  In a state where doe permits are so prevelent all it will do is not orange shoot. What about the people in the woods not deer hunting like maybe bird hunting or just walking their dog. Every incident is a tragedy, dont get me wrong but a new law will not fix it.
Deceased 4/26/08 RIP Bob.

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Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2007, 11:48:12 AM »
what about the guy who got shot the day before gun season opened in the southern tier. He was wearing an orange knit cap and was shot. I suppose that was because they were hunting illegally the day before season opened. 
Deceased 4/26/08 RIP Bob.

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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 12:04:55 PM »
I like the blaze orange so I know where the other guys are and so they know where I am. If I come upon a guy I will go over a hill or something so there's some kind of backstop between me and him. I hunt in Wisconsin for rifle season and this year a friend of the family's son was shot by his own grandfather. 18 years old and sitting in his tree stand freezing so he covered himself with a brown and white blanket and walked out to the car to warm up. He covered all his blaze with that blanket and when the old man saw the brown and white moving through the trees he shot thinking it was a deer.

Can you imagine how this guy feels? I don't think I could live with myself after that. I'll put up with the blaze laws.
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Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 02:13:44 PM »
I am sure the guys feels horrible. However he broke a cardinal rule of knowing your target and well beyond.  He thougt it was a deer he didnt know it was a deer. Had he waited to positively identify his target he would not have shot.
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Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 02:17:13 PM »
as hunters we are responsible for our actions. We can not blame the guy who gets shot because he wasnt wearing a certain color to make it easier for us. The bottom line is  a firearm was pointed at andthe trigger was pulled on something we werent sure what we were shooting at unless we are cold blooded killers and intended to kill a person.
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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2007, 04:18:14 PM »
honestly that's how I saw it too at first, maybe the law is to blame on some level. He was expecting anything human to be orange so when he saw the brown he figured it had to be a deer. I'm not him thank goodness so I can't even begin to think what went through his head. All I know is I like the law, I can see another hunter from a long way off and know it is unsafe to shoot in a certain direction or be in a certain area. Also it's a lot harder to ruin another person's hunt when you can see from a 1/4 mile off where that person is and avoid him.

I like to think of myself as a safe and ethical hunter but everyone knows it doesn't always go the way it should. I shot a nine pointer this weekend in the rump because it decided to start running just as I squeezed the trigger. I had to track it a 1/4 of a mile through the woods and put another round in it to put it down. I guess where I'm going with this is it doesn't always go picture perfect no matter how conscientious we try to be.
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Offline lonewolf5348

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2007, 11:28:29 PM »
I don't know what to say I myself before pulling the trigger always have a few items on mind
BACKSTOP BEYOND THE DEER:
I NEVER SHOT MORE THEN ONE ROUND AT A DEER THE LAST 40 PLUS YEARS
I MAKE THE FIRST SHOT COUNT OR LET THE DEER WALK
I WONDER WHAT THE HECK ARE THESE GUYS SHOOTING BANG,BANG,BANG, IT TELLS ME HE MISSED THE DEER OR WOUNDED IT
I LOVE THE GUY WHO ONLY GOES TO THE RANGE ONE TIME A YEAR OR JUST BUYS A NEW GUN AND GOES HUNTING
I THINK I LOST 2 DEER IN 40 PLUS YEARS ONE WITH HE BOW AND ONE WITH THE GUN

Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2007, 12:44:51 AM »
I am not saying an accident cant happen I am saying we cant blame the guy who got shot because he was not wearing orange. The guy with the gun is responsible no one else. The first thing always reported is the fact no orange was worn. Wanna stop deer hunting accidents, eliminate doe permits during rifle season. If you have to look for antlers as well as for a deer less shooting would take place. I lived in the northern zone for years and hunted in bucks only there for years. A shooting was very rare. But now they have doe permits and special seasons with a bow and muzzleloader where it is either sex.  The first 3 weekends there to include early muzzleloading someone was shot. One guy in the back and the guy who shot him said stay here I will get help and never rerturned. The second guy shot his boss anbd the guy doing the shooting was making a drive and shooting at deer and shooting to make deer run. The pattern I see here has nothing to do with what color they were wearing it had to do with idiots carying a gun and one was a convicted felon who had no legal right to be carrying a gun I just cant get on board with saying well if they wore orange they would not have gotten shot. One was wearing orange and got shot and they were hunting illegally with guns the day befor eseason opened in the southern tier. Too many have the mind set hey there is movement I have a doe permit bang oops. Well if the person would have had orange on I would have seen them and not shot them.  ummm NO if you had identified your target before shooting you would not have shot them.  I hunt state land with the same group of guys and gals for the past 24 years. I would not hesitate to hunt in carhart head to toe with these guys because I trust them to know what they are shooting. We make drives also.
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Offline NYH1

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2007, 06:20:29 AM »
bulzaye, you've said it's not the person that gets shots fault, it's the shooters fault.  And directly speaking you're right.  Indirectly however, we as people have to do as much as possible to protect ourselves no matter what we do.  Wearing blaze orange while hunting is like wearing a seat belt while drive or riding in a vehicle.  Seat belts don't always work, but more often then not they do.  Same with wearing blaze orange while hunting.  It may not always work, but more often then not it will.  We don't have any control over what other people do.  Just because you and I identify our deer (or any game we hunt for that matter) and what is behind it before we shoot, doesn't mean everyone else does.....and that's the problem.         
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Offline Silvertp

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2007, 09:25:12 AM »
Im w/ Bullzaye on this one.  There are (probably lots of)  folks carrying firearms in the woods that have no business doing so.  What ever happened to being sure of your target,? and placing a bullet properly in a game animal?   Brown blanket or not, deer do not walk on their hind legs and in no way, shape or form resemble a human walking with a blanket over them, or in the very least you cannot see enough of the "possible" target to identify it as a deer or a human.

I have a friend who's wife was shot during hunting season while she sat next to a campfire in camp,  next to a tent and a jeep.  Her fault? ...does this point to the need for another law? 

Sounds to me like the initial example was purely an accident.  A person hit when another was shooting at a deer, and in this case perhaps if the victim was wearing blaze orange it would not have happened, but I wouldn't bet on it.  A friend of mine was hunting on Douglas Island, next to Juneau.  He was shot thru the pelvis by a deer hunter using a scoped 30/06 who thought he was a deer.  Distance, about 50 yards.  The odd thing is the bullet entered through the blaze orange jacket my friend was wearing. 

My 2cents.  Silvertp

Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2007, 10:38:52 AM »
New York hunter I agree we have no control over the other morons in the woods. However if they are that bad, regardless of whether I had on orange or not my life is in jeopardy. I have heard tales of people having bullets shot over their head while sitting in blaze orange. If you round a corner in your vehicle too fast lose control and hit another vehicle is it the other guys fault because he didnt have his headlights on? Look at 99.9 percent of all accidents, the shooter states I thought it was a deer. You do not think it is a deer, you know it is a deer before you even lift the gun much less shoot.  Regardless of whether the person who gets shot is wearing blaze orange or a FLASHING RED LIGHT on a hat, people will get shot. Do a google search on it and see how high the percentages of people get shot in mandatory blaze orange states compareds to NY then try to logically tell me it will work better. All it will do is train pplnot orange it is an animal bang.
Deceased 4/26/08 RIP Bob.

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Offline woodchukhntr

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2007, 06:31:52 AM »
If I get shot while wearing blaze orange, the shooter will be charged with manslaughter, or at least someone will find me easier.

I wouldn't shoot at a deer if I saw a patch of orange beyond it.  I will if I don't see orange.  So the camo'd guy on the other side could end up being on the receiving end of a bullet.  Old-fashioned red/black or green/black wool coats are little better if they are in shadows.

Offline NYH1

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2007, 06:38:02 AM »
Do a google search on it and see how high the percentages of people get shot in mandatory blaze orange states compareds to NY then try to logically tell me it will work better. All it will do is train pplnot orange it is an animal bang.
Perhaps hunters in other states are more careless then hunters in NY state or maybe they have more hunters in those states that's why they have more accidents, I have no idea.  I will logically tell you that wearing blaze orange in safer then not wearing it.  I know that when I'm doing a drive and I look over 50 to 100 yards in thick woods and can see my buddy from his waist to his shoulders because he has a blaze orange vest on and I cannot see him from the waist down because he has blue or camo colored jeans on that blaze orange works.  I'm wearing it, everyone that hunts in our camp is wearing it and I would have no problem at all if they made it a law.  ;)
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Offline nyhunter863

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2007, 09:55:58 AM »
I can't believe that some hunters would even consider hunting during gun season without a good amount of blaze orange on whether it's law or not although I see no reason why it shouldn't be a law.  These folks really must trust their fellow man a great deal, a heck of a lot more than I ever will this I can assure you!  Sure, one could get shot even with the blaze on, but no one will tell me that a hunter is not way more visible with it on compared to one dressed in camo.  It's stupid to think that a law mandating it would be more harmful.  Why do they put safeties on guns then?  Sure, accidents happen with or without safeties, but I am sure we would have had even more gun accidents if they had never been put on guns.  Any added measure of safety can save us from those who don't use there heads and there are probably more out there that don't, than do!! 

Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2007, 11:39:10 AM »
First of all I said per hunters so the number of hunters per state is figured in. I also never said tha I didnt wear orange. I am against it becoming a law for 2 reasons  

1. We will lose hunters and our numers are declining rapidly now.  I live in an area where there are many amish who will tell you they will stop hunting if it becomes mandatory. Less hunters less money spent. You will aslo lose others just by the principle.  

2. as stated by me earlier it will cause hunters to be more careless with movement no orange must be a deer and bang.  I mean it was stated that the guy shot gis grandson who was wearing a brown and white blanket walking through the woods.  I never saw a deer walking upright no matter. Fast forward the law is mandatory blaze for hunters.  There is a guy walking through the brush looking for his beagle who got away there is broen movement in the brush must be a deer I have a doe permit bang oops. That guy was not hunting so he was not wearing orange and got shot. Target identification is the problem not the color of what you wear.  If I was in the woods and someone was close enough to me to shoot me if camo whern they were elgitimately shooting at a deer between us, you can bet he will know I am there when I speak or make my presence known. I was a big opponent to safety belts and helmet laws too. We do not need laws to protect the stupid.  If someone shoots me in camo they are going to be charged with manslaughter also. There is no such thing as a hunting accident anymore.  


I have taught the hunters safety course for 25 years or so.  I have never had anyone in my class get a certificate if I did not know they were going to be safe simple as that and I have failed a few just for that reason even if they got a perfect score on the test.  My guess would be others are not as conscientious as I and others I know, because it is clearly obvious that when they shoot someone or themselves they are not safe and should not be hunting simple as that, no matter what color they wear or what color I wear
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Offline nyhunter863

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 02:42:57 AM »
How can you know from teaching a hunters safety class who will be safe or unsafe in the field?  Yeah, I can see an instructor failing someone who is acting like a total moron in class, but otherwise I really can't see how you can know for certain who will be safe or unsafe from a course that lasts less than a day.  I also don't agree that you will get hunters quiting in masses if a law was enacted.  I think the safe and ethical hunters already wear it so to them it would be no big deal.  Those who would quit hunting just because of a law like this probably have issues with lots of things and maybe it wouldn't be all that bad if they no longer roamed the woods with guns during hunting season.  I think the Amish are not very significant in number although I am sure some sort of exception to the rule could be made for them.   

Offline Varmint Hunter

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2007, 10:10:20 AM »
I have been teaching the NYS Hunter Education Program for 28 years. In our classes we always stress the importance of wearing Blaze Orange while hunting biggame.

Interesting points:

NYS has a higher compliance rate (statistically) of hunters who wear Blaze Orange voluntarily, than several states that mandate its use. We also have a lower accident/fatality rate than some states that require Blaze Orange.

With that said, I see no legitimate reason why NYS does not require a minimum amount of Blaze Orange so that we can do even better. Just wearing a Blaze Orange hat GREATLY improves a hunters visibility. How much of a burden would that be to a hunter?

I do, however, worry that if hunters believe that ALL people in the woods during the biggame season are wearing Blaze Orange that there MAY be a slightly greater tendency for a hunter to incorrectly assume that anything not wearing Blaze Orange could not be another person.

After hearing all the arguments on both sides of this issue for many years I am in favor of mandatory Blaze Orange. When I say Blaze Orange I mean just that, orange that has that unmistakable brilliance known as Blaze or Hunter orange. When garments get old and faded they loose that brilliance and become much less effective. That is why I like Blaze Orange hats and vest. They are inexpensive, cheap to replace, and very effective.

Just my 2 cents

Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 10:42:40 AM »
I definitely agree that target identification is and should be the first thing that goes through your mind, but I don't see a problem with the added insurance of blaze orange. Not only for safety purposes but as I said earlier, if I see a hunter in an area I go somewhere else so I do not ruin his hunt. If he is in camo I don't know he's there and will accidentally walk up on him and neither one of us wants that.

Two years ago I saw two white tails coming through a heavy brush line, the adrenalin starts to pump and as I raised my shotgun I realized it was two large dogs that a woman was walking through the woods. Did I verify my target? Certainly, otherwise the outcome would have been a lot different then just putting down my gun, I never even clicked off the safety, but I can see how it could have gone the other way. A lot of dog owners I know have blaze vests for their dogs to wear when they walk through the woods.

As for the Amish comment I live and hunt in Illinois and we have a pretty sizable Amish community and blaze laws, it doesn't stop them here why would it stop them anywhere else?
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Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 11:21:55 AM »
well if you are getting a hunters class in less than a day there is half the problem there. In NY it is a minimum of 10 hours. Mine go at least 12 and then range time. If a person is hesitant and does not seem safe with a firearm, I will work with them individually to help them become safe. if they do not handle a firearm safely and are comfortable with it, they do not pass. That is how I see it I have taken on the responsibility and my name is going on a certificate saying they are safe not just sat in class and passed a test a monkey could pass, they are SAFE. They know the rules they feel comfortable with a firearm in their hands.

It is stopping the amish here because the elders are saying no one is wearing blaze orange.  GrimJim you should have verified and idnetified that target before the gun was picked up. It could accidently go off while pointing it at the thing you think you want to shoot before you were sure.

There is no reason for a law to make unsafe people a little more safe.
Deceased 4/26/08 RIP Bob.

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Offline Qtip

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2007, 02:38:10 PM »
I know for fact that some "hunters" are wearing full camo so they can sneak around on posted land. I spoke with a local Encon off. that said the same thing and his info came from property owners. We have to live and deal with other regulations such as bag limits, type of firearms that can be used, etc., etc.; what's the overly big deal with a min. sq. inches of blaze orange? Are you being asked to give up a right?

Qtip

Offline Oldtimer

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2007, 03:50:04 PM »
What Woodchukhnter wrote brought to mind an incident during spring turkey some years ago.  I was in the local rescue squad and we got a call for a man who was missing while hunting.  We walked over the area where he was supposed to be for two days, and could not find him, because he was in a ghillie suit and was lying in a small ditch.  I probably walked within a few feet of him several times.  He was only 43, but had died of a heart attack.

Another incident was in Tennessee, where I was hog hunting in open woods in the fall.  I was in full camo, as I was hunting at a lodge and had gone out alone with a guide.  I sat down on a hillside and the guide was looking for sign.  He was not 20 yards from me and did not see me until I moved, even though he watched me sit down.

A neighbor who is dead now told me of seeing a man dove hunting on his property.  The man was sitting still on a stump at the edge of some woods.  A buck came out of the woods and sniffed at the back of the man's coat, but the man never realized the deer was there.  The deer hung around for several minutes before heading back into the woods.   The man had kept still the whole time, so the deer was not spooked by his scent or what he was wearing. Deer are much more oriented to sound or movement than to any color that we use while hunting.

 While there is no perfect way to protect yourself  while in the field, if you drive more than a few yards, the risk of death or injury from a car accident outweighs your risk while hunting.
Statistically, your eight-year-old is at greater risk of injury while riding a bicycle around the neighborhood than you are of being injured while hunting. 

A bad hunter will blame his equipment for his failure to get game, rather than admit that he needs to brush up on his hunting skills.  If it isn't the blaze orange, it's the ammo, or the rifle, or his socks were too  tight.  The thing is, without identifying the real cause of his lack of success, he will never get any better.  Hard to correct an error if you aren't willing to own up to it. 

I'll stick with blaze orange, even where it is not the law.  I don't see that it bothers the game and it makes others able to see me instead of just blazing at some motion or noise.

Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2007, 03:16:32 AM »
qtip do you really think if orange became mandatory it would stop the trespassers because they have to wear blaze umm no they wont wear it.  Break one law beark 2 no difference.   But I really think that is why ppl are so for it. Not because they are afraid of getting shot it is more because they are not confident in themselves to know a safe shot, so make everyone else wear a bright color so I wont shoot them. I guess if I were to wear camo and did tresspass (which by the way I dont I have plenty of state and private land to hunt dont need to) and I got shot it would be ok cuz I wasnt wearing orange?  that seems to me to be what ppl want this law for is an out for themselves. If I wear camo and get shot what is it to others? I guess then like I said in the beginning I am doing it for all the other hunters not myself. I am doing it to make you safer not make me feel more secure and safer. I guess if you lack that much confidence about your hunting and shooting skills and target identification, maybe you should rethink the whole idea of hunting.  The simple truth is what it will do is make ppl more lax because hey no orange cool gotta be a deer. Also if deer do not see it then why is it that the laws that have been put forth are for rifle season only. If deer do not see it make it mandatory for every deer season bow and up. If a deer can not notice it it should not matter when yo uned to get them in closer.  I can just as easily shoot someone with my bow or muzzleloader as I can my 7-08 or shotgun.  Especially when it is lack of positive taregt identofication that is the cause. I can think someone walking the edge of a brushline 30 yards away is a deer as well as someone 70 yards away walking with a blanket wrapped around them. People see what they want to see. It all just sounds like a bunch of paranoid ppl looking for an excuse if they make a law to cover them when they make a mistake. Well officer he wasnt wearing orange so I shot. Then the response should be yes ok you are right no problem have a nice day. It is his fault he wasnt wearing blaze orange. Good way to cull the dumb ones out.
Deceased 4/26/08 RIP Bob.

A country boy can survive

Offline Qtip

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2007, 11:35:10 AM »
Well everyone is entitled to their own opinion my friend. However I would not equate a person's hunting, shooting, and safety skills based upon their stance on pro/anti blaze orange laws. I don't believe that has anything to do with it. I surely don't view it as an "excuse" by "paranoid" people. You may argue on if you feel you must; but like I said everyone is entitled to their opinion. I also taught hunter safety for several years with a friend and many other instructors had no problem with a blaze orange law.

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Offline bulzaye

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2007, 12:38:25 PM »
again I never said in my classes that I dont advocate for blaze orange. I certainly do. and I never said I dont wear it. what I said was we dont need a law for it. If I choose not to wear it so be it if I get shot I get shot, besides the fool who shot me where is it anyone elses concern?  why do I need a law to protect me from me or fools in the woods who shoot at sounds and movements. Look at all the incidents and show me one where the shooter was not at fault. I just get sick of everytime there is an incident the first thing ppl have to mention is well the guy was not wearing orange when the problem is the guy with the gun shot at something he thought was something else and did not know for sure what it was regardless of what was being worn. Bottom line do I wear orange yes I do wear some, do I think it helps yeah it helps make careless people tolerable, do we need a law for it NO.  Oh yeah you didnt answer my question do yo ureally think a blaze orange law will stop ppl from breaking the law as far as tresspassing and poaching?
Deceased 4/26/08 RIP Bob.

A country boy can survive

Offline Qtip

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Re: Another hunter shot
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2007, 01:39:35 PM »
From my experience as a Dep.Sheriff laws don't stop everybody from doing something wrong; it just makes many think twice. Lawbreakers will never go away but if a person thinks it isn't worth the fine they may not do it. Just like speeding laws. Speeders still exist but many try to stay within the law most times anyway. The incident I spoke of did not involve a hunter shooting another thinking he was a deer. The guy was shot with second round as the deer began to run after the first shot. The guy didn't "see" him as he fired the second shot.

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