Author Topic: Bullet choice ruled our hunt (Read 4314 times)

264 WIN MAG · « **on:** November 27, 2007, 02:10:25 AM »

Well, went for a week of hunting last week and the whole week was ruled by bullet choice. There were three of us hunting...I was using 150gr. Nosler Partitions out of my 270wsm, my grandfather was using 180gr. Nosler Partitions out of his 30/06, and my buddy was using 150gr. Combined Technologies ballistic tips in his 30/06.

The first couple of days were hot and didn't see anything, but about middle of the week it started cooling down a lot and the deer started moving. The first cold day we had (Thanksgiving day) I didn't get to hunt, but my buddy and grandfather did. My grandfather killed a spike with his 30/06. He took a quartering shot which took out one lung and then passed through the guts...the deer ran about 30-40 yards and dropped dead. My buddy shot a nine point, which he could not find...I went back the next morning and eventually found the deer that had laid down beside a creek. Unfortunately the deer had been eaten up during the night by coyotes so there was nothing salvagable.

The second day we went hunting I got a shot at two deer at around 450 yards. I hit the first one good and she went into the woods and dropped. I took a shot on the second one, but she turned at the last second and I barely grazed her back end...I know this because she came out again the next morning on another stand inside the woods close to where I took the first shot at...this time I didn't miss and dropped her in her tracks. The same evening my buddy took a shot on a doe. He messed up and hit it in the shoulder. I went into the field to track it down...there was fragments of bone that appeared to have come from the shoulder and a pretty good blood trail. I followed the blood trail into the woods, but the further we went the blood got further and further apart between spots. Eventually the blood trail went to about every 15 feet, then every 30 feet, and then was non-existent. We never found the second deer he shot.

At the end of the week both guys shooting the Partitions put meat in the freezer. The guy shooting the combined technology bullets ended up loosing two deer, one of which we found only after it was eaten up. Although he did get the horns, which weren't anything to brag about he got no meat at all...

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2007, 02:14:42 AM »

One thing I would like to add about the deer my buddy shot in the shoulder...

When tracking the deer through the field and through the woods all of the blood was pretty apparently coming from the left side of the deer, which would have been the entrance wound side. From what I saw out there I gather that the bullet hit the shoulder, blew up, and didn't penetrate very far past that. I think it did penetrate far enough to kill the deer, but not far enough to leave a good blood trail or kill the deer in a close enough range to find it before the blood trail disappeared.

jasonprox700 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2007, 05:01:39 AM »

Just my 2 cents, but that is why I would never use ballistic tips for deer. They work great if the deer is perfectly broadside. I tried the accubonds. They seem to wrok great.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2007, 07:55:23 AM »

Don't blame the bullet blame the piss poor excuse for shooting he did. The .30-06 with 150 BT is a perfectly adequate deer gun and the BT is a fine bullet for it but NOTHING makes up for piss poor shooting and that's all he has to blame it on.

Since the first one was eaten you didn't verify bullet placement. I'd bet on gut shot. Since you didn't find the second you COULD NOT verify bullet placement. I'm betting NOT a shoulder shot at all. Sounds more like a leg hit to me.

Either teach the guy to shoot and help him get the rifle sighted in or do the game a favor and find him another hobby.

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2007, 09:58:23 AM »

The first one was ate up, but I did verify bullet placement...he shot it in the neck.

The second one we did not find, but I don't have to find it to verify where the bullet hit...there were bone fragments with bright red "bubbly" blood on the left side of the tracks in the field. Tracking the deer all the blood was on the left hand side (entrance wound side). In the woods there were several spots where you could see the blood was only coming out of one side of the deer.

I know the shot wasn't a gut shot because even a BT will penetrate on a gut shot and there was only blood on one side of the animals escape which means there was not penetration. Also the bubbles in the blood tells me that it did indeed hit at least one lung. My theory is that the bullet hit the shoulder, came apart, and damaged one lung. After running for approximately 300ft. the entrance wound started closing up more resulting in much less blood spurting out.

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2007, 10:00:45 AM »

And just for the sake of bringing it up when I looked at the 9 points entrance and exit wounds I noticed something pretty disturbing to me. The entrance wound was small as it should be, but the exit wound was about 5-6" wide. That would probably indicate to me that the bullet came apart even going through the neck...it wouldn't have stood a chance trying to pass through 1 shoulder...let alone two.

rickt300 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2007, 02:39:24 PM »

Wow I must have some strong Mojo! When I shoot something with a ballistic tip I get deer meat and an exit hole. If I shot a deer in the neck and got a 5-6" exit hole I wouldn't have to look for it either. If I weren't shooting my meat deer I'd shoot one in the shoulder just to see if it would work. Naw I know both how to shoot, where to shoot and NEVER have bullet performance problems, ballistic tips or not. In fact I'll bet the two 95 grain BT's I am going to take my does with both exit and neither deer will travel more than 20 yards if that. Those 30-06 ballistic tips must be cursed. Ronnie shoots a 300 WSM using the 150 gr. Ballistic tips and everything he shoots falls down including feral hogs and he shoots a lot of them. Those BT's really work fine out of my 7x57, maybe your nameless buddy ought to get himself a 7x57!

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2007, 03:25:42 PM »

It really wasn't a fact of not being able to find the deer that night (the 9 point). The guy who did the shooting hasn't hunted much for deer and when the deer ran off he assumed he missed it. He came back to the camp and told me that he missed. It wasn't until the next morning that he saw blood while hunting on the same stand.

I am completely convinced that the second one was hit in the shoulder. I know for sure the bullet did damage at least one lung from the blood I saw.

Maybe it's not your mojo...maybe it's just where we hunt. I've tried the BT's in my 264 Mag and they never put down a deer on a shoulder shot (with the exception of one shot at 612 yards and one other that was shot in the shoulder at over 400 yards, but it did run a good ways). I've also tried the Combined Technologies bullets in my 270wsm and two deer were shot directly in the shoulder. The first one ran off and I had to chase it down. The bullet did penetrate through the first shoulder, but didn't make it through the entire deer and didn't put it down. The second deer I shot with them dropped where it stood, laid there for a minute, then got back up...I shot it a second time which finished the job (head shot).

I've tried them...didn't work for me, lost too many deer on shoulder shots

My cousin tried them...hated the BT's and lost too many deer on shoulder shots. He started shooting the Combined Technologies bullets and likes them until this year...since he started using them he started placing his shots behind the shoulder...he hit one in the shoulder and lost it.

My grandfather tried them and lost a couple of deer...

My buddy started to use them last week and lost two deer in a week...

All I'm doing is giving the results of our hunt and how bullet choice can make a huge difference between a good hunt and a very aggrivating one. I don't think anyone likes loosing deer...that's why I don't shoot BT's.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2007, 03:47:39 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on November 27, 2007, 07:55:23 AM

Don't blame the bullet blame the piss poor excuse for shooting he did. The .30-06 with 150 BT is a perfectly adequate deer gun and the BT is a fine bullet for it but NOTHING makes up for piss poor shooting and that's all he has to blame it on.

Since the first one was eaten you didn't verify bullet placement. I'd bet on gut shot. Since you didn't find the second you COULD NOT verify bullet placement. I'm betting NOT a shoulder shot at all. Sounds more like a leg hit to me.

Either teach the guy to shoot and help him get the rifle sighted in or do the game a favor and find him another hobby.

My vote is with you!

If you don't find them, you don't REALLY know where they were hit!

DM

rickt300 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2007, 04:07:49 PM »

Why would anyone use a bullet designed to open at long range on the ribs of a deer or antelope for shoulder shots? No bullet can operate at all velocities. I feel shoulder shots are wasteful of meat and no matter what you are wasting bullet energy on a non vital part of the animal reducing the bullets potential to damage lungs and heart. I have seen more deer and elk run a long ways when hit in the shoulder and the spine was not involved than any other hit. I shot an elk in the shoulder at 80 yards using a 30-06 and an 180 grain Partition loaded to 2800 fps. It really put the destruction into that shoulder but the holes thru the lungs were not much wider than an inch and the bullet was recovered under the hide on the far side without any portion of the front half left. It looked like a 30 caliber wadcutter. This elk went 400 yards and crawled a long way under the short willow brush common to drainages in Wyoming. Without snow this elk would never have been found. This was the last animal I ever intentionally shot into the shoulder.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2007, 05:28:43 PM »

Quote from: rickt300 on November 27, 2007, 04:07:49 PM

Why would anyone use a bullet designed to open at long range on the ribs of a deer or antelope for shoulder shots?

Why would anyone use such a bullet for any shot?

I don’t know about you but I prepare for the long shots, then work hard for the short shots. I need a bullet that works in either case, ribs, shoulders, whatever.

Quote

No bullet can operate at all velocities.

No, but some operate reliably at a wider range of velocities than others. Why not use one of them?

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:44:41 AM »

I agree with Coyote Hunter 100%. I don't know about where everyone else hunts, but where I hunt you might have a shot at 400+ yards where the BT might be a great choice, but you've also got shots at 10 yards sometimes...

I'd rather use a bullet that will hold up no matter where I hit the deer and at what range I end up with. If a deer walks out at 20 yards I don't want to have to back up to 200 yards just to be able to put it down. I would much rather have the deer come out at 200 yards and move up to 10 yards.

Also the guys I know who hunt with BT's are always having to pick their shots. Most of them are afraid to put a bullet in the shoulder of a deer or hit them in the chest. I dont' want to have to be picky with my shots...I want to be able to see a deer, put the gun up, and feel confident that no matter where I put the bullet it's going to do significant damage and put the animal down.

rickt300 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2007, 04:36:27 AM »

I didn't say I was afraid to, but that I don't want to. I was brought up believing shooting game animals at poor angles was both unsporting and unethical. That killing cleanly is far more important than just killing. Killing a game animal means more than just a set of horns and that the meat is far more important than telling the guys at the bar "I got my buck". A lot of this bullet debate stems from different ends of the spectrum, those that believe the animal is a bullet test to see if the bullet will traverse lots of bone and meat and still exit to those who believe killing quickly is the most important aspect, meaning bullet placement trumps all else. "always having to pick their shots", does this mean you don't make an effort to carefully place your shots? There is a lot more animal that is vital than the shoulder, why would a bullet maker make a bullet that is designed for that one shot? I note that Nosler makes bullets for both schools of thought, why do you bone busters use the wrong bullet and bitch about it? I notice that a lot of this sniveling starts when someone uses the lightest of the Ballistic Tips for the wrong purpose and especially when the animal is not recovered. You don't even have circumstantial evidence of poor bullet performance. I have used Partitions along with bullets from all the major bullet makers with perfect satisfaction. The only trouble I have ever experienced occured when I used a bullet outside it's performance parameters. If your needs require slamming bullets into the hindquarters (?) or thru shoulders then by all means use your favorite boutique bullet. Using an inexperienced hunter to provide an example of poor bullet performance without a recovered animal is just a cloud of hot vapor the size of Nebraska.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2007, 05:02:17 AM »

I've never really worried about having to..." Pick my Shots "..when I using any ballistic tips...and never had any failure to speak of with them...Yes...they did make some large exit wounds and tear up a lot of meat when shot into the shoulders & thighs..but...this has always been known about them...Where has everybody been that hasn't heard this or already know this is a fact......Now...When the deer is close...I can and have put the bullet where it belongs to keep from having to worry any major issues.I don't aim for the shoulder when using them at any distance unless using the heaviest of bullets for that caliber...I put my shots into the lung region....I learned a long time ago...to match the rifle & load which I am using to the area & game that I hunt..I don't understand why others don't so the same...I don't use any magnum rifle with any BT's if there is a chance of jump shooting...They really aren't designed for that anyway...If I know I will be jump shooting deer...I will use a bonded bullet or a Partition...If I am over looking large fields where shots will be over 200 yards..I don't worry about the bullets performance...Only when there is a danger of loosing the animal for some reason would I worry about it now..Mostly now I hunt with some type of bonded bullet...and it's usually either the Federal Fusion ammo line or the loaded Partitions or loaded Grand Slams or loaded Accubond for factory fodder..or hand loaded Accubonds & Partitions...I'll use the CT ballistic tips if the others don't fly as well or the bore is a little rough...or if on private ground where I can see the deer fall..In all my rifles the Accubonds fly as well as the BT's any way....I.M.H.O. I feel most of the time...it's easier for folks blame the bullet...and not themselves...when things go wrong...Sure there are times it does...even under the best conditions possible...but those times are few...To me...this incident is an example of shooter error...and using the best bullets available wouldn't have mattered much...but yet...the bullet again gets the blame...I hear folks complain more with short mags & magnum rifles when they use them...DUH...Match the tool to the job...it's that simple...Match the rifle & bullet to the animal & distance it can be shot...Why is this common knowledge no longer used...Personally I think a lot to do with it is the cost of the ammo or components..and also the influx of new shooters using these rifles...Some may be due to plain ignorance and no knowing better...but...I put the blame (a lot of it anyway ) on the lack of quality gun writers these days...failing to do in depth writing about it...and getting it published as it was done back in the 60's & 70's..Now most of the gun mags are just hyping the next greatest cartridge coming out or pure advertisement.

Mac

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2007, 06:43:38 AM »

I know everyone keeps talking about how great the BT's are at long range...

I was just poking around doing some checking and compared the 150gr. CT/BT to the 150gr. NP that I'm shooting.

Out of the barrel and up to 300 yards the NP is beating the CT/BT on energy and velocity. Past the 300 yard mark the CT/BT starts getting a little more energy and velocity than the NP. At 300 yards the CT/BT has 1ft/lbs more energy. At 500 yards the CT/BT only has 30ft/lbs more energy...that's not a huge gap.

You average shot on deer is under 300 yards...at least mine is. At the muzzle the NP has 84ft/lbs more energy. At 100 yards the NP has 50ft/lbs more energy. At 200 yards the NP has 23ft/lbs more energy. To me the logical choice would be the bullet that has more energy on the 300- yard shot.

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #15 on:** November 28, 2007, 06:44:48 AM »

Oh, and on a side note the 150gr. Partition from Federal Premium has .2" more drop than the 150gr. Combined Technology ballistic tip from Winchester at 500 yards...

.2" isn't much to talk about.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 28, 2007, 08:41:45 AM »

The BT's are good long range bullets..and when the proper bullet with a high BC is used...they do exceptionally well...way out past 300 yards... In 30 cal for the 150 grain...the BT has has a BC of .435...the partition of the same weight has BC of .387...both have the same SD...so...start them out at the same speed...the BT will pull ahead of it at 300 yards and more...on both wind drift..retained velocity..and retained energy.Most folks who shoot long range...don't even consider the 150 grain nor the 165's as much as they do for the 180 grain & 200 grain...Run them thru point blank and you should see what I mean..I haven't run the numbers on what the factory loads them at...Given a 300 yard shot or under...I too would opt for the partition over the BT...but for bean field shooting...the BT's are good bullets.

Mac

rickt300 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 28, 2007, 08:46:55 AM »

How can two bullets weighing the same and start out equally in velocity have such a great difference in muzzle energy? The size of Nebraska! I find the Ballistic tips and selected Sierra bullets used properly kill light game more quickly than the Partitions. I would use the partitions on larger game than deer, I even use them on feral hogs sometimes as I like to neck or spine hit them with high shoulder shots.

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #18 on:** November 28, 2007, 09:26:24 AM »

According to the charts posted on the FP and Winchester sites the FP 150gr. NP is coming out the barrel at 3160fps while the 150gr. CT/BT is coming out at 3120fps so the FP ammo is about 40fps faster out of the muzzle. Still doesn't make up for the energy difference.

I've personally said after shooting both the FP and Winchester ammo back to back that the gun kicked more and seemed to have more muzzle blast shooting the FP ammo. Just another reason I don't shoot Winchester ammo.

ccoker · « **Reply #19 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:12:13 AM »

interesting read
My brother shot a deer with his new 270WSM two years ago, a nice buck at probably 250 yards
broadside shot, deer dropped, he watched it for 20 mins or so through the scope, reached down to get a drink of water, as he looked back up he saw it crawling away..
we got down there ( i was fairly close ) he was in a VERY high stand (down in South Texas) probably 40ft high we found a few splatters of blood then nothing
him, me, my dad and my son looked for several hours,nada, about a hundred yards from where he was hit, and in the direction he took off was a fence line then a huge plowed field
walked up and down the fence line looking for any sign of hair or blood. nada

I know he was shooting a BT and he is a very good shot, the only thing I thought at the time is perhaps it hit the shoulder and didn't penetrate..

I know he was bummed

this past year he shot a 170lb hog right behind the shoulder (turned at the last second) and went clean through it at about 40 yards, DRT
of course, my dad hit the same hog in the neck with a 22-250 at the same exact time
they were both watching (same stand) 3 hogs come in, they were both aiming at the outside hogs (left and right) when they both turned, they both swung to the middle hog and "bwdap!" they both nailed it!

beemanbeme · « **Reply #20 on:** November 28, 2007, 11:20:26 AM »

From the sounds of it, you don't reload, right? Well, I don't know anything about the new shorties but had the 30-06 shooters loaded up their rifles with some garden variety Remington (or any other ordinary brand) 165gr ammo instead of relying on some boutique bullet to compensate for their lack of shooting abilities, they would have had meat on the pole.
IMO, a ballistic tipped bullet is nothing more than a hollow point with a hat on and, again IMO, a hollow point is not a good bullet to be hunting with.
As far as the 5" hole in the far side of the neck shot deer, that'll happen when you neck shoot a deer and the bullet hits the neck bone. What makes the hole isn't bullet shards, it's bone shards. Also like the shot that blew out shoulder bone pieces, it should have blown bone shards all thru the torso of the deer.
Finally, the question begs to be asked, why should anyone CARE what a bullet is doing at 500 yards? Not one person in 100, not one person in 500, not one person in.......etc etc should be attempting some sort of poke and hope shot at 500 yards at a deer. Unless, of course, you're a young lad in West Virginia, shooting a .243 with your grandpaw along.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #21 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:13:04 PM »

Quote from: rickt300 on November 28, 2007, 04:36:27 AM

…
That killing cleanly is far more important than just killing.

Something we agree 100% about.

Quote

… A lot of this bullet debate stems from different ends of the spectrum, those that believe the animal is a bullet test to see if the bullet will traverse lots of bone and meat and still exit to those who believe killing quickly is the most important aspect, meaning bullet placement trumps all else.

The fact of the matter is that every shot DOES test the bullet. It does not follow that the people here that advocate the use of what they consider to be better bullets simply look at their game as test targets. In my case I use better bullets because I DON’T consider game to be test targets.

Quote

"always having to pick their shots", does this mean you don't make an effort to carefully place your shots?

I think the point was that some bullets allow more flexibility in placement than others. That said, stuff happens and even the most carefully planned shots can go awry. Having a bullet that works in such situations seems like a good idea to me.

Quote

… The only trouble I have ever experienced occured when I used a bullet outside it's performance parameters. If your needs require slamming bullets into the hindquarters (?) or thru shoulders then by all means use your favorite boutique bullet. …

Why not choose a bullet that works reliably in a wide variety of situations? I was mighty thankful this year that my 7mm RM was stuffed with North Forks instead of BT’s when the buck moved just as the trigger broke. An easy quartering-away behind-the-ribs shot instantly became a right ham shot. The North Fork travelled over 3 feet to the vitals and dropped the buck in its tracks. I have no confidence that a BT would have performed as well.

You can dismiss premium bullets (i.e. anything better than a BT) and the people that use them as incompetent, insensitive and disrespectful of their game, but that is exactly opposite my experience.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:24:54 PM »

Quote from: beemanbeme on November 28, 2007, 11:20:26 AM

…
Finally, the question begs to be asked, why should anyone CARE what a bullet is doing at 500 yards? Not one person in 100, not one person in 500, not one person in.......etc etc should be attempting some sort of poke and hope shot at 500 yards at a deer. …

Believe it or not, there are a fair number of people who shoot better at 500 yards than others do at 200 (and better than some at 100). And there are even more who are capable of a 500 yard shot.

If they are shooting in an area where such shots are possible, and even if they don’t intend to take such a shot, why would a well-prepared hunter NOT care what the bullet would do at 500 yards?

Don’t know where you shoot but I know at my range the number of folks who can hit well at 500 yards is well under the 1-in-a-100 figure you cite, let alone 1-in-500.

NONYA · « **Reply #23 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:34:35 PM »

WOW a Nosler Bt blew up on impact and didnt do the job,careful you will get chastised for spreading the truth about these bullets here.Since when is shooting a deer in the shoulder piss poor shooting?I take all my bucks and elk with a front shoulder shot,most effective anchor shot in my book.

rickt300 · « **Reply #24 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:01:05 PM »

A Ballistic Tip bullet is a hollow point with a wedge inserted into it so it is more streamlined and will expand at low velocities, it also has a solid base and thicker jacket walls than most cup and core bullets to hold a wide mushroom in place. In my experience I have not experienced a lack of penetration and I don't purposely shoot shoulders anymore for reasons noted with any bullet unless the hit is going to include damage to the spine. Most of these stories are second hand and no beast was recovered to prove bullet placement or performance. The rut will soon be over so we can start shooting feral hogs and though I still won't shoot at the shoulder bone lower than the shoulder blade and then not at the joint you can bet the 150 grain Sierra Gamekings and the Ballistic tips won't let me down or deny me reasonable exit holes. If you character's can't kill game with an accurate bullet and just have to have some deep penetrating super bullet thats great use what works for you. Confidence is very subjective and it Boutique bullets are what it takes to get it then by all means lay down your money and go for it.

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #25 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:54:45 PM »

IMHO opinion the BEST shot you can take on a whitetail is putting it through the shoulder. How are you going to put the bullet through the heart if you are scared to shoot through the shoulder??

Way I look at it...you put the bullet behind the shoulder, you get a lung shot...deer can still run. You put the bullet through both shoulders, you get both shoulders, both lungs, and possibly the heart...deer isn't going anywhere.

Of course this is all based on having a bullet that can actually penetrate through a medium sized game animal without blowing up...

264 WIN MAG · « **Reply #26 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:57:40 PM »

As far as the comment about shooting 500 yards...I care. I'll take a shot at 100 yards or less with confidence. I'll also take a shot of 500 yards with confidence. The only problem is that I want a bullet that can perform equally in both scenarios and that just isn't the ballistic tip.

I've tried to give the bullet the benefit of the doubt, but it seems every time I hunt with someone who's using it I get more reason to dislike the BT.

rickt300 · « **Reply #27 on:** November 28, 2007, 03:25:15 PM »

It is your opinion. With a Ballistic Tip I can put a bullet behind the shoulder, take out the heart and lungs no problem. I don't have to work with a narrow wound channel. I'm not afraid to put a bullet thru the shoulder but I don't. If I did the deer could still run. In the unlikely event you got both shoulders then you had a perfectly broadside shot so why waste meat in both shoulders? Your argument is a poor one, you just don't like using fast opening bullets. I get much faster kills with the softer bullets because they destroy more tissue. I don't shoot game at 500 yards and I doubt there is a bullet that would please everyone at ranges of 50 feet to 500 yards anyway. If a shot comes my way that I feel my bullet is not up to I just don't take the shot, simple as that. If you can't take deer with Ballistic Tips then you are truly worthless as a hunter and a shooter. If this is the case there are a lot of bullets out there that you can't use because the BT's are as good as they come. But I can tell you need one bullet for everything. I tend to use different bullets and cartridges suited for the task at hand rather than one magnum cartridge and bullet combination. I wouldn't be happy with so few choices.

NONYA · « **Reply #28 on:** November 28, 2007, 03:33:59 PM »

A bullet that wont penetrate a deers shoulder consistently is NOT a hunting bullet,when you start limiting your vital shot area on game because your bullet wont kill where others will dont you think its time to change bullets?You would be better off with a corelokt that costs 2/3 as much as a BT

nomosendero · « **Reply #29 on:** November 28, 2007, 05:19:08 PM »

I shot some of the Deer that I harvested with BT's in the shoulder,(30-06 & 30-06AI) but they were 180gr., not 150. Nor would I load
165 BT's for the vel. range I can get with those rifles, but the 180's work close or far, shoulder or not.
I understand why some have problems, but from the posts I read, they still don't. i used the 150 in a 14" Contender in 30-30AI, good matchup & shoulder shot is not a problem. I just loaded some 165BT's for a friend who just got back from Irac, in his case for a DPMS 308. For that gun, I loaded 165BT & for that vel., they will penetrate ANY Black Bear, Deer or Hog he chooses to shoot.

Coyote Hunter said he likes to use a bullet that he can use up close or at a distance, not worry about shoulder shots, etc. I agree & Well, if you have the right BT for the right cartridge or loaded properly, you can for Deer size game.

Mr. Graybeard said the last time this stuff was started something to the effect that the improper use of the bullets spoke volumes about what the complainers knew. I could not agree more. And what I see is entry level thinking by some, just the way it is.

It's a matter of application. I see 1/2 ton pick-ups loaded with too much weight for a 3/4ton & when they break, no doubt the user will complain that he will never buy another one of those. It can't be the operator!

And to heck with factory recommendations.