Author Topic: loads for the 45-70 (Read 1608 times)

Scibaer · « **on:** November 27, 2007, 05:09:41 AM »

ok, i need some basic information on load levels for the 45-70.
i have read the term trapdoor and ruger levels, but dont know what they refer to.
so, with out over whelming me with more knowledge then i can digest, what are the different levels for the 45-70 and available bullets weights .
i'm looking at having some loads made up and need a starting point. i'm not a reloader, know next to nothing about it, yet.
i dont have any books for reference, i need some coffee table explainations and info here..
glenn

henry1 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2007, 05:21:39 AM »

sorry scibaer, i dont have an answar for you, but i do have a question along those same lines. Was wondering if the BC can handle the ruger #1 loads. I didnt think it could so i have always loaded trapdoor levels in mine.

greg916 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2007, 05:49:03 AM »

I load trapdoor level loads in mine.

Common bullet weights are 300 to 500 grains. My favorite is the 400 gr speer, a good soft bullet that will expand at low velocities. My second favorite is the Hornady 300 gr HP. That bullet is poison through the ribs but can mess up some meat if the shot strays into the shoulder. I avoid the 350 grainers, they do not expand well for me. the only deer I have had to look for while hunting with a 45/70 was shot through the ribs with a 350 gr speer. Finger size hole in, finger size hole out. All the rest have been DRT.

My favorite powders are Reloader 7, IMR 3031, and IMR 4198, with IMR 3031 being my first choice. I want to try some Trailboss.

Due to a shoulder injury , I can't tolerate the recoil of even the trapdoor loads. I have been loading some guard loads using Hornadys .457 round ball. They have been accurate enough at 25 yards and a lot of fun.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2007, 06:30:52 AM »

Here's a post by Lone Star that shows the pressure levels different manuals use to determine safe levels in different firearms, as you can see, they aren't the same! In a nutshell, your body will tell you what level you want to shoot, H&R will say levergun loads are fine, some won't want go that warm due to the recoil.

Tim

Trapdoor = the weakest actions, orginals designed for blackpowder

Marlin= 1895 levergun

Ruger = Modern rifles

Quote from: Lone Star on May 17, 2007, 04:00:01 PM

This is another of the confusing part of the .45-70 pressure rating. According to SAAMI, .45-70 ammo intended for all .45-70 firearms in good condition cannot exceed a MAP of 28,000 cup. But, most factory 405-grain ammo is loaded to ca. 20,000 cup. The 300-grain stuff is higher, around 25,000 cup. Just for fun, here are the pressures that three major handloading manuals list for the three pressure levels:

Trapdoor
Hornady - 25,000
Speer - 21,000
Lyman - 18,000

Marlin
Hornady - 40,000
Speer - 28,000
Lyman - 28,000

Ruger
Hornady - 50,000
Speer - 35,000
Lyman - 40,000

Not much agreement there. BTW, it is the maximum internal area of the case that determines the case head thrust, not the rim size. I work with contained pressures all the time, that is the truth. Doubt me - call JD Jones. He's written about it extensively for over 20 years and will be happy set you straight.

Scibaer · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2007, 10:36:10 AM »

ok, lets see if i can say this right... the pressures generated are measused when the rifle is fired ?
how and where are these pressures ( cup ) measured and how does someone controll them when reloading?
it looks as if hornady's data is conciderably higher then the other two, with speer being the middle of the road.
that may be tellling if i knew more about this pressures issue. trying to learn
and another thing, 70 grains of powder is 70 grains all day ? so whats the difference.. the burn rate an "fine"ness of the powders ?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2007, 12:17:38 PM »

Don't even try to figure the difference between CUP and PSI, it's a can of worms, just use the data from whatever source you choose and be glad it's there for us.

I use Hodgdon data more than any other, it's available online. As for the strength of the SB2 frame, the 500S&W has a slightly larger case head and a SAAMI max pressure of 60kpsi with less case contact with the chamber wall, but it's a well know fact that some .500S&W Handis have had underlug setback issues which caused the barrels to be loose on the frame, so shooting hot loads in the 45-70 probably isn't the wisest choice even if you can handle the recoil which is brutal.

Tim

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

http://data.hodgdon.com/

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=221

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=38

Scibaer · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2007, 12:36:15 PM »

tim , you've been reading my mind, lol ..
the CUP and PSI are measurements.. those measurements have to be taken somehow..
for now, i'd like to know how those measurement are taken and what exactly they represent..
i dont really want to figure out the differences.....yet

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 27, 2007, 12:40:22 PM »

glenn

Lets see if i can put this in a prospective for you , ( big word

)

Trapdoor --- 20 ga. or just a little more recoil

Levergun --- standard 12 slug from a single shot

Ruger --- 3 1/2 slug from a 4 pound single shot with a metal butt pad

while leaning aginst a big tree .

All kidding aside , the 45/70 handi will take more than most people want as far as recoil goes , what are you wanting to do with the loads ? this will help some as far as what level and load you need .

For most hunting a upper trapdoor or lower levergun loads with a 300 to 405 grain bullet will work for all but the biggest / nastiest game in NA , ( big bears ) for just fun shooting , the sissy load of 12 - 15 grains of Unique behind a 405 grain cast bullet can not be beat .

stimpy

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** November 27, 2007, 12:48:11 PM »

Keep readin!

Tim

http://www.reloadbench.com/gloss/cuppsi.html

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm

Scibaer · « **Reply #9 on:** November 27, 2007, 12:55:48 PM »

stimpy,
that i an understand, lol .. upper trapdoor to low lever gun sounds about right..
ofcouse the big tree loads sounds fun too !
honestly, thanks for that field grade representation of 45-70 recoil ..

Scibaer · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2007, 01:01:33 PM »

I looked up CUP. using wikipedia and found a link to the above article. its public domain, no plegerism issues.
i have it in a pdf, easier to read and it has some diagrams and mathmatical formulas for the math to convert cup/psi/cup/lup
the article is overkill for sure..
glenn

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2007, 01:18:49 PM »

Ummm, I posted the Denton Bramwell .pdf file link in my second reply, that was part of your assigned reading Grasshoppa!!

Tim

Scibaer · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2007, 04:21:23 PM »

,lol.. ok master ..
well after read about the different designations, where they originated from and how they are measured, i think i'll pay more attention to CUP than psi
but when it comes to the handi, the recoil may get you long before chamber pressures do.
but as stimpy says, average lever gun levels are prolly where i'll top out for hunting..
but did you say that if i ream to 90, then the chamber pressures actually are lower ?
grasshoppa

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** November 27, 2007, 04:57:23 PM »

Stimpy's analogy is a good one.

Yes, that would be true, Hodgdon's 45-120 500gr cast data shows pressures below 29kcup, but at velocities just over 1800fps, Lyman's 45-90 data show 500gr cast at close to 1772fps at 24.8kcup, the larger case allows good velocity, but at lower pressure. Right click the attached files and save them, when you open them they'll be more legible.

Tim

Scibaer · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:49:13 AM »

But, everything has its tradeoff too, the longer case allows for lower pressures, but increased velocities. those same velocities carries with them, more recoil, and i would say that the larger the weight of the bullets the more signifiant the recoil, ( near the big tree range ) ?

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #15 on:** November 28, 2007, 04:33:46 AM »

Re: Stimpy's analogy,

A friend of mine describes the recoil of Ruger loads like this:

" Feels like a pair of beautiful pink lace panties falling on your shoulder...........................

WITH A 400 POUND BROAD IN 'EM!!

Scibaer · « **Reply #16 on:** November 28, 2007, 04:56:13 AM »

, nice lol

..
well ,

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** November 28, 2007, 06:01:03 AM »

Another great analogy Joe!!

Yup, bigger bullets at higher velocities will cause more recoil, but even with the 45-120, the recoil of modest loads is very pleasant. 41gr of 5744 behind a 405gr bullet is easy to shoot at around 1600fps.

Tim

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/ObsoleteCartridges/45%20120%20Sharps%20Straight%20page%20365.pdf

canon6 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 28, 2007, 06:23:00 AM »

Joe, thank you for that crystal clear visual. Doug

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #19 on:** November 28, 2007, 07:32:53 AM »

Happy to be of service!

henry1 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 28, 2007, 07:40:06 AM »

LOL!

That was awesome! We are quite the family on here!
Nice pic by the way!
Hank.

Scibaer · « **Reply #21 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:14:41 PM »

oh sure Tim, talk me into a 45-120 why do ya, lol ...
joe's description was clear alright .. a bit to clear, i cant get that image out of my head now..

, lol
yeah buddy, i dont care for Celleck myself but that rifle and how it was portrayed in the movie, sure lit my fire !

quickdtoo · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:20:32 PM »

There's a lot to be said for the shock and awe of the big .45, that's why I chose it, fanner50 is pretty sure he wants to go with it too.

Tim

Scibaer · « **Reply #23 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:49:18 PM »

Oh, for sure. but i want to deer hunt with mine and the 120 may be too much for a whitetail, i dunno.
i have tossed around mag-na porting my bc barrel just for the big boom factor though.. shock and awe the deer to death !

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** November 28, 2007, 12:50:20 PM »

I'd get a BC for fun, and a Handi for hunting.

Tim

Scibaer · « **Reply #25 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:19:01 PM »

deer hunting is fun, lol ..
well im putting a bc barrel on a handi frame and with the monte carlo stocks and a scope.. i know, i know that too, lol..
which brings me to a question.. is the bc forend ( schnable style ) different then a regular forend or regular schnable ( like the shotguns have ) ? lenght, stud hole location or anything like that ?
i have a schnable on a 20guage, that i plan on using on the bc barrel if it will work

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:20:46 PM »

It's just longer, specs are in the FAQs.

Tim

Scibaer · « **Reply #27 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:39:02 PM »

i was just looking in the FAQ's didnae see it.
can a regular fore end mount up to a bc barrel ?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** November 28, 2007, 01:50:47 PM »

Yup, it fits fine!

You're right, it's not in there, thought it was with all the stock weights.

It's 11¼" long, not including the spacer.

Tim

Scibaer · « **Reply #29 on:** November 28, 2007, 02:58:18 PM »

ok thanks Tim. so i take it that the bc forend is longer past the mounting hole..
that give me an idea..
take the ... cut the... dowel connect ...oh yeah

question, is throating the same as reaming ( not to likely ) so whats the difference ?