Elk with a PRB?

[Bowhunter57]

I've shot deer with a .50 caliber PRB and had no trouble knocking them down.

I have tenitive plans to purchase a Tennessee Poor Boy in .54 caliber that has a round ball rifling. I'm wondering if a PRB is enough to efficiently kill an Elk. Otherwise, I may purchase a quicker twist for conical bullets. This muzzleloader will be used in Colorado.

Your opinions and experiences are appreicated.
Thank you, Bowhunter57

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

you bet it will be enough. 90-100 grains of powder will be perfect. I wanted a .54cal for elk so i bought a great plains rifle.

[longcaribiner]

There's alot of BS being peddled by some out door writers about the ineffectiveness of PRBs on game.  At a reasonable distance, the PRB is more than adequate.    A fast twist and conicals if you are talking about those 250 to 300 grain fancy whoop de doo bullets, won't extend the range but about 20%.  They are too short to be stable for mid range and long range.  If you were to say go to a Rigby or Gibbs style rifling with 450 grain to 500 grain bullets, you could kill elk out to 500 meters.   (very Little different than a breech loader  Buff Rifle in Ballistics  including the rainbow trajectory.) 

The inline manufacturers have alot of folks hood winked about PRB's.  They have to, or their product won't sell.  The bullet companies won't tell you, they want to sell you some bullets.

In the civil war, the US War Dept. (and even earlier the British War Dept) trough extensive trials determined that a 450 grain or 500 grain minnie ball and 60 grains of black powder were lethal on humans to 500 yds.  Again, thats SIXTY GRAINS of powder.  If you shoot a 54 PRB with 90 grains it will be traveling so much faster, at least to one hundred yards.     Remember that a round ball loses it oomph due to wind resistance much faster than say a 310 grain bullet.  But a monster bullet like a civil war minnie ball can carry its energy with stability for much much further, and with less powder.  If you are really going for elk, why not a 58 caliber rifle?  Easier to find both round balls and minnie balls for. 

If you do decide to shoot minnie balls, in any rifle, remember that the hollow base of the soft lead bullet can and will deform and throw accuracy off with more than about 70 grains of powder.  Using harder lead, defeats the purpose of the hollow base and fails to provide the accuracy the soft hollow base was designed to provide.   

[captchee]

killed alot of elk with a simple RB . keep the range in close and it will do  the job fine . Now I do use a heavy mini  when hunting the hells canyon rim . that’s a deep and steep place  . For there I like the added thump of the heavy conical . Past that  it’s the RB for me


 i agree with longcaribiner  about where all this bla bla comes from as well .
I think also to often folks get on this ballistic  calculator or calculation  kick .
 To often  what is supposed to happen and what actually happens are to entirely different things

 
 now for my  rifle I find that a heavy hollow base mini  shoots  more accurate then a solid base  and my load is 110 grains .
 But again , that’s my rifle , my barrel ……. Someone else’s results may and most times are completely different  .

[ratgunner]

All good advice.If you are taking on the challenge of useing trad gear then you just have to get close.I never hunted elk,but I'm sure a .54 is plenty.

[Idaho Ron]

Cap is right.  He said "keep the range in close and it will do  the job fine "
The problem with a lot of people is they don't want to pass a shot. If you keep the shot under 75 yards and use a 54 or Larger it will work. You have to remember that a ML needs to be placed in the right spot. Even more so than a regular rifle.
 I personally am a HEAVY conical shooter. I like bullets for my 50 that are 410 gr minimum, and 385 gr minimum for my 45. My rifles are tack drivers and I can comfortably take 150 yard shots.
 One thing you need to remember is elk are HUGE. Even a cow is HUGE.  A lot of people that give advise on killing elk with a ML have never actually killed an elk. I am not saying these guys haven't don't get me wrong.  I am just saying get info from guys that have done it.  Knocking down whitetail deer is not the same as killing elk.
 I have killed elk with bows, rifles, and ML's 17 in total that I have killed and I have been with and helped with at least another 20. Elk can take a whuppen and keep going.   It is better to hunt them with more than enough than just enough when it comes to a ML. 
The first picture is a picture of a elk my son got about a week ago. She was a big cow and Bulls are about 25% maybe more larger.
The second picture is of my Daughter. Her bull is big but I have seen even bigger. Forgive me for posting centerfire rifle pics, but I post these pictures to show you size of elk. If I were you I would shoot as big a bullet as you can do so  accurately.  Ron

[dla]

A 50 cal RB weighs what - maybe 230grs? A RB might give you 1/2 the penetration of a same weight bullet. A 230gr RB just seems too light for Elk to me, but I bow to those who have actually taken Elk with RB.

I've whacked Elk with Bow and Rifle - never with a Muzzleloader. I am going to hunt with traditional MZ next year, and I intend to use the heaviest conical I can. I'm not messing around as I don't like bloodtrailing. Elk don't fall down like those fluffy little Whitetail.

[Swampman]

Ballisticlly a .54 caliber PRB is about like a .44 Magnum pistol.  If you would be comfortable using a .44 Magnum pistol on elk then have at it.

I've shot primitive muzzleloaders for about 35 years and I think it's a little on the light side.

[captchee]

well i have HUNTED ELK  with a flintlock for  20+ years and  have taken them every year but 2 " thanks to the US army "and
can tell you its not to light


  50 is 177+ and 54 is  230 + if I recall  correctly " i  looked it up becouse i was thinking the 50 was 190 "
well i can tell you that  a 50 and a 54 call RB  if placed right behind the shoulder of an elk  1/4 away will penetrate completely through at 75 .
 The 54 will do it at 100 yards , both  charges of 80 grains .

A 436 grain maxie  fired with 110 grains of 3 F  place dead on the shoulder at 100 yards will not penetrate all the way through . At least  I have not had one yet that did
 that’s from actual experience .

 Now will a 2417  or 2117 Easton with a field point  travail at under 250FPS kill an elk  at 25 yards ? Ya you bet . You put it behind the shoulder and punch the hart  or lungs or both  and  bobs your uncle
 I can also tell you a marlin 30.30 will kill elk “Bulls “ out to  175 yards  with a   170 grain bullet .
 The bullet did not penetrate all the way through  but the bull only went 150 yards and was done ..
 The distance was lasered  and the shot witness . The rack is out in my shop

As I said before don’t fall for this modern ballistics bla bla   put the ball , behind the shoulder and into the hart and lungs and you will be fine . There is no need for core locks , 500 grain buffalo bullets  or copper jackets  sabots  and all that . They simply are not needed .
 Learn your weapon ,  learn  your accurate range , stay under 100 yards . Leave the compression to the modern folks who seem to need it .

 

[admiral]

A 50 cal RB weighs what - maybe 230grs? A RB might give you 1/2 the penetration of a same weight bullet. A 230gr RB just seems too light for Elk to me, but I bow to those who have actually taken Elk with RB.

I've whacked Elk with Bow and Rifle - never with a Muzzleloader. I am going to hunt with traditional MZ next year, and I intend to use the heaviest conical I can. I'm not messing around as I don't like bloodtrailing. Elk don't fall down like those fluffy little Whitetail.

actually a 50 cal RB weighs 177 grs. RB's can be the hammer of Thor is used correctly. by that i mean big power comes from big diameter. lots of good advice so far. someone suggested a .58 cal and that is a great start. as in all hunting, big game can be killed with 40 lb. bows, .223's, and small caliber RB's when the hunter is skilled and patient for the right shot. for me personally .45, .50, and .54 are bullet rifles.  .58's get interesting with the PRB and .62's and up offer incredible power that is all out of proportion to what the paper energy claims. they absolutely pound big game. it has to be seen to be believed and many 300mag type hunters would be speechless. good luck.

[Swampman]

Hummmm...Much like Hollywood, I guess the laws of physics don't apply to primitive weapons.

I'm as much of a romantic as anyone, but I personally believe in the laws of science and physics.

[Idaho Ron]

Cap, is it fair to compare a shoulder shot to a soft lung shot?  I don't think so, it's kind of apples to oranges don't you think. I can honestly say that a PRB 50 or 54 will do the job if the hunter is skilled enough to pull it off, but I won't recommend it.  I am also going to have to say that PRB's don't have any voodo or magic on big game. If you compare a conical and a PRB of the same cal and the same type of lead on the same target, the bullet will out penetrate the PRB.  I know you don't buy into the ballistics  " bla bla" but it does have some truth in it.  I don't know where you got the idea that a elk will die from a field point, but I would not bet on it.  A friend of mine killed a cow one time that had a bullet in her shoulder and about half of one lung was shriveled up. The bullet had came apart  when it hit the shoulder. We found a part of the bullet still there encased in a hunk of gristle. Elk are tough and deserve to be shot with a bullet that can do the trick.  
I would never say that a field point is  lethal  on elk. If it was done it would be a parlor trick. The 150 yard tracking job because of the 30-30. Well in the wrong case would lead to a lost elk.  I don't think I would want to bet on a hit like that very often.
I am on the other side of the fence to a point. I believe in the ballistics mambo jumbo. For the most part it is because i have seen it work on elk.  No I don't hunt with Magnums in the rifle hunt. But I believe in big heavy lead for a ML, the bigger the better, the faster the better.  Ron

[captchee]

Hummmm...Much like Hollywood, I guess the laws of physics don't apply to primitive weapons.

I'm as much of a romantic as anyone, but I personally believe in the laws of science and physics.

just more bla bla  from the other side  IMO
 but hay flies  and other bugs by physics shouldn’t fly , neither should the heli but they do and do it well .
 but to some the old CVA dont shoot good either a ? swamp still got to have a 2000 dollar gun to do the job ? bla .

 no Ron i think we both agree here . the point im trying to make is if you put the projectile  where it needs to go , you will be happy area it will kill .
you miss it or just lightly clip it and guess what ? it doesn’t mater what you missed with your still tracking
 and yes a field point will do that if you drive it into the pickle barrel
 you miss that area and it will do little more then poke a hole .
th
 Past that it’s the same old Bla bla  put for by the  modern folks . When it comes down to it ,a obsidian  tipped arrow will kill just as dead as a 125 grain Ziwicky  but they don’t want  you to believe that . so they tout  bolistics charts , trajectories  velocities and such . However they leave out the shooter  who is the real brains behind the system .
 Tell me something Ron  you want to lay money that my rifle  will shoot  to the same POI as your rifle using the exact same  loads ? about  how about your rifle shooting my loads and having the same  out come ?

 I would think not . Why would that be you think  when bolisticaly speaking  you should be able to load X amount of powder  with X projectile  and everyone have the same out come .
 But that’s not how it works is it . If it was we would all be using  brand X and shooting the same charges wouldn’t we .
 Go to a modern muzzleloading forum and read all the different  combinations . Why are there so many ?
Simply because what works for one doesn’t work for another  and having a 500 grain conical maters diddle if you cant put it where it needs to be .
 But ha Maybe im wrong  if the projectile / caliber gets big enough   maybe it doesn’t mater

 but just as with most everything else what looks good on paper  seldom  ends up that way in real life .


 IMO also the 30.30 just as  the 270 is a good elk gun . has been for a long time .
 the problem is we live in a day and age where  we have to compensate for our poor shooter performance  by always getting bigger and thinking its better .
 we are compensating by saying well if I cant hit where I need to aim then   what I need is something that will  blow half the target away and then  it doesn’t really mater 

 growing up we had  3 rifles in the house  . a 22 , 30.30 and a 65x55
 the 30.30 and 65 filled the freezer every year with elk meat .
 The 22 ,,,,,well it worked just fine for local mule deer .
 The point is learn your weapon . don’t just shoot it a couple times a year  just before season opens and then expect all to work out fine  because your not going to be happy .

 you know i find it funny . Its like  someone wakes up one day and say X isn’t big enough  and you shouldn’t use it .
 To that I have to say , really did X just  become something today ? Has X changed in the last 100 years ?
 Is is some how different then it was.
 If it wasn’t any good then why is X still around .

 The only thing that changes is us  and our abilities X is constant 
 but ha maybe the game its self has gotten somehow bigger better , tuffer  but i doubt it   

[Idaho Ron]

You know what is funny, I put GM barrels on two TC renegades. Both guns shoot the same load and both guns use the same sight set on the Lyman 57 sml, all the way out to 300 yards. I wonder why that is?
 I know different guns shoot different but some guns shoot the same or dang close to it, Whether it is  a cartridge gun or a ML.
You said "Whenit comes down to it a obsidian  tipped arrow will kill just as dead as a 125 grain Ziwicky  but they don’t want  you to believe that  so they tout  bolistics charts , trajectories  velocities and such"
Actually I have never heard that, I have heard that obsidian is sharper than steel. I have heard that the newer stuff is more accurate, and it is. I have MANY trophy's from archery shooing.
A 30-30 is as good as a 270? My son dumped his cow with a 270 at 345 yards one shot the elk never twitched. Yours ran 150 yards. My daughters bull went 20 yards after it was shot at 200 yards with a 270.  I have seen MANY elk killed with the 06 family of rifles. I can tell you a 30-30 is not as good as it gets. The 30-30 was great for it's time. And I feel it still has some life left in her, heck I have a 30-30 and a 32 special.

You said "having a 500 grain conical maters diddle if you cant put it where it needs to be ."

To assume because I shoot a powerful Muzzleloading gun I can't shoot them accurately  would be a incorrect assumption. Remember what "assume" stands for.

 Ron



This thread is becoming PRB vs Conical. it is a argument that can not be won by either side, both sides have merit in the mind of the shooters. Good luck knocking down elk with a 30-30 at 345 yards my son would like to see that.  If you want to compare penetration some day i would be game. I have a 45 I will shoot in the test. I will let you pick and bring the media we will shoot into.  We could meet somewhere around Mountain Home for the shoot. It would be fun to do a little test like that and get a chance to pop a cap.   Ron

[Swampman]

"but to some the old CVA dont shoot good either a ?"

They shoot ok, it's the blowing up in people's faces (documented) that concerns me.

230 grains of lead at a very moderated speed is about like a .44 Mag.  That's enough but not my first choice.

[captchee]

This thread is becoming PRB vs Conical. it is a argument that can not be won by either side, both sides have merit in the mind of the shooters. Good luck knocking down elk with a 30-30 at 345 yards my son would like to see that.  If you want to compare penetration some day i would be game. I have a 45 I will shoot in the test. I will let you pick and bring the media we will shoot into.  We could meet somewhere around Mountain Home for the shoot. It would be fun to do a little test like that and get a chance to pop a cap.   Ron

  may be for some but not for me  as i said i use a conical in some areas  but mostly RB.
 I don’t think anyone said conicals could not be accurate , they can .
 But   one shouldn’t assume that  having a heavy conical takes the place of  shot placement
 why would anyone want to shoot an elk  with a 30.30 at 345 yards ?
  That would be no different then someone taking a 250 or 300 yard shot on any big game  with a muzzleloader .
 It shouldn’t be done  but if you read the internet it seems to be done a lot

Again what looks good on paper doesn’t mean it will work out in the real world .
 i find paper to be  pretty easy to kill and it doesnt go far

 elk  and other big game are not in that category now are they 

[Idaho Ron]

So why do you use a conical in some areas? I know the reason I want you to say it.
I find BS pretty easy to kill. Seems like we have a stand off.  Ron

[captchee]

So why do you use a conical in some areas? I know the reason I want you to say it.
I find BS pretty easy to kill. Seems like we have a stand off.  Ron

 pretty simple ,  different shot placement .
 Some years back ?? I think it was 95 or so  I had one heck of a time getting an elk out .
 I was hunting the edge of Unit 22  right on the hells canyon rim . I had went in alittle further then I normally do .
 Most times I hunt the  western edge of that unit . But that year it was dry  so I chose to hunt the  tops of the Black lake area as this  and the 7 Devils area was one of our favorite  places back when I was growing up .
 Dad  worked for the IDF&G   as a salmon and steal head biologist  from 1950- 1980  so we lived all over central and northern Idaho  .  I really started muzzleloading pretty heavy in the  mid 1970s  but never completely switch over tell I came back from the army  in 87
 Anyway  you didn’t ask that did you .
 Well  for those of you who have never hunted this area , the ridge tops are often narrow . One side is the snake  river and hells canyon  or the other the salmon river canyon  .
 But in this area  one side of the ridge dropped to the snake and the other to rapid river . Both sides are steeper then a Billy goats A$$.
  The wind was blowing like crazy and I had  slide in under a big pine  to warm up and have a smoke .
 I  had been there for a while and was looking down into the rapid river canyon and was thinking I had better start heading back when I heard  something  behind me .
 There walking up the trail was a rag horned 4X5 bull .  Somehow he had slipped right  behind me and was heading back up the trail I had just came down .
 He was approx 35 to 40 yards  1/4ing away  and I placed the ball  right  behind the shoulder .
 It litterly stood  him on his face .  I was trying to re load but I was under this darn tree  and was having one heck of a time .
 The bull got up  turned  back toward me and started to tip again , I don’t think he ever really saw me  as he  was  trying  coming back down the trail  that he had came up past me on . but his off shoulder where the ball had came out wasn’t working to well  and as he tipped . You know how they do  trying to stay in high gear while going over .
 The  bugger tipped and made it about 10 yards  off to my left  .right over  and started sliding down hill into the canyon .
 I bet that bugger slide maybe  100 yards before he snagged up. i really though he was going all the way to the bottom .
 he  was dead on his feet with my first shot  and if I had been anywhere else  there would have been no worries . But  I wasn’t and so I spent most of the rest of the day  just getting the meat back  to the trail  and the next day packing it out to my scout . So now  I use a heavy conical  when im back in that area . Not because  a RB will not do it . That ball had went completely through and  took out   his hart and broken the off shoulder .
  
 However with the big conical  I find they will take out  both shoulders at  close range . As I said before , I have had very few get complete pass through  but most times they are just under the skin on the off side . they pretty much take their front wheel drive out of action .
 And before you say it , yes I have seen bulls take repeated hits through the shoulders with  center fire rounds  and keep going for some ways . Once that adrenalin kicks in , they can fast cover some ground

 Down lower out of those canyons the RB serves just fine

 What went wrong ? Nothing with the RB  it was all me .
1) I was hunting alone , Not good when you get an elk down
2)  while the shot was within  very good range . I never for one second considered where I was at  OR where the bull could get  to.  that I simply wasn’t prepared for

 So in hind sight  the fault was really all mine . The rifle did its part , the ball did its  but I slacked on my end of the deal .
 I still love to hunt back there . I don’t think there is any more wonderful place . The scenery is  some of the grandest in the world . But I tell you even when I was younger , packing out an elk or moose  has to be one of my least favorite things to do . If a person thinks they are big on the ground ,  that’s nothing tell  your on your 2nd trip  back for meat knowing full well your not even ½ way done yet

 So to answer your question , I want the added thump  and bone removing ability of a heavy conical  when im back there .
 It has nothing to do with ranges or  if the RB is capable of killing and killing well .

 Its really the same with a bow . I know a lot of fellas that bow hunt back there . But I never did LOL  just to big of a chance of looking a ½  mile down in the canyon  at a dead bull
and feeling like you got a big Dunce hat on

[Idaho Ron]

You hunt with a conical because it has more "thump".  That means foot pounds of energy to the rest of us but if the word you use is thump, than thump it is. I am glad you agree with me the big bullets have more thump or (foot pounds of energy) and more knock down potential.
If a guy needs to add thump in one area for hunting why not add the thump and use the thump every time. I want a elk stopped now! it seems that you want the same thing. the Conical will and does give thump as you say.
I think that Bowhunter57, would do well to do as you say and use the thump of the conical. 
I have hunted the area you are speaking about. I hunted around Bear, Cuprum, Horse Mountain, windy ridge. I hunted there for years.
I went to black lake a couple of times but that was a LONG time ago.  Ron

[longcaribiner]

Round balls lose their energy mostly from air resistance due to an un-aerodynaimic shape.  But they are still far more aerodynamic than a flat topped squared off bullet.  They other thing that is overlooked is sheer mass.  The reason bullets fly so well is the inertia and spped vs the amount of the bullet hitting air.  Physics can indeed tell some of the story, but there parts of physics that are left off the ballistic tables. 

Per Lyman's Black Powder hand book, a 50 caliber round ball fired over a hunting load,  tends to lose around 60 % of it's energy by the time it travels 100 yds.  (light target loads tend to have slightly higher energy retention) 

a 535 round ball averages a slightly higher energy retention.  Maybe 55% loss

a 58 cal ball loses approximately 50% of its energy

a 75 caliber round ball loses only about 30% of its energy at 100 yds.

See the pattern? 

Now the part that the ballistics tables leave out.  A super dooper boat tail spire point highpower bullet may pack 30,000 ft pounds of energy, but if the shots are pass throughs, a significant portion of the energy is not imparted to the quarry.    Why do most game departments require expanding bullets?  Shock value, bigger more gruesome holes and surer kill?    What happens to a soft lead ball upon impact with a carcass?  It flattens, depending on the density of the flesh more or less but it still flattens.  IE a 54 caliber ball might actually make a 58 caliber or larger internal wound.  Which do you figure bleeds more, a 40 cal hole, a 45 cal hole, a 54 caliber hole? etc.If i punch a 60 cal hole 2/3 of the way through an animal, how much internal shock will be induced? vs a pass through with a 300 magnum super whoopee bullet?     

Ft pounds of energy from the ballistics tables don't consider the physical shock imparted to the game, the expansion of the bullet and a number of other things.    My daughter's favorit kitchen utensil is the round punch she uses to push through apples and remove the core.  Imagine using a similar corer to remove a 60 caliber core 28 inches long from the chest of an elk.  I think it would smart just a little and bleed buckets full.   

[dla]

I believe a flat-tipped slug is still more aerodynamic than the same diameter RB - much more.

But that's not the point, or at least it's not something I care about. My experience with the 45-70 (which is what I hunt Elk with) is that if you want more penetration, go heavier. Muzzle velocity is less important than the mass of the bullet. My personal preference, i.e. my dream "minimum" muzzleloader load, would be a 1/2" or greater diameter, 400'ish grain chunk of lead launched at around 1200'ish fps. I would feel comfortable out to maybe 100yds that the slug would dig a big hole deep enough, even if I accidently hit ribs and the grass bag on a quartering away shot.

I guess I'm in the momentum camp. I don't care about KE as much as momentum. Elk are big and sometimes a bullet has to travel a ways to mess up something important.

[captchee]

You hunt with a conical because it has more "thump".  That means foot pounds of energy to the rest of us but if the word you use is thump, than thump it is. I am glad you agree with me the big bullets have more thump or (foot pounds of energy) and more knock down potential.
If a guy needs to add thump in one area for hunting why not add the thump and use the thump every time. I want a elk stopped now! it seems that you want the same thing. the Conical will and does give thump as you say.
I think that Bowhunter57, would do well to do as you say and use the thump of the conical. 
I have hunted the area you are speaking about. I hunted around Bear, Cuprum, Horse Mountain, windy ridge. I hunted there for years.
I went to black lake a couple of times but that was a LONG time ago.  Ron

 oh i agree  and i dont think have ever disagreed . however  none of the above means that a RB is in adequate to do the job  now does it ? The answer is no
 Yes a conical has more energy  of that there is no doubt . It also is no doubt that a heavy conical will carry that energy farther  when in comparison to a RB .
 However the real question is , is that energy needed ?
 That in and of itself is personal preference and should be considered  on ones given set of needs .
 There are conical out there in the 5 to 600 grain weight  even some in the 800 depending on what caliber your using . Does that mean that they kill any better then  the lighter ones ? No  it doesn’t .
Dead is dead . Its relive and un changing

 The other thing since we are on the subject that conical give and this includes me  I guess , is a faults since of security  . OH the round will do the job and it will  do it at a greater distance then the RB .

 Now is that true ? Yes . But should it be true ? No . IMO we shouldn’t be shooting at those distances anyway
 See if we want to play paper statistics we can even though I don’t really agree with them .

 A 30.30  with a 170 grain bullet lists at 1354 flbs at 100 yards
 Yet if we compare that to a 530 grain  TC maxi 54 cal conical  backed with 120 grains of 2F we only get 4 more Flbs at 100 yards  coming in at 1358ftlbs
 Yet  many say the 30.30 is to light for elk  but that the muzzleloader isn’t ?
 that’s just dumb
Lets change the conical design to say  a buffalo bullet  in the same grain  with the same charge . Our energy level has  climbed to 1499 at 100 an addition of  almost 140 fltlbs  so by rights  the TC  maxie should not be use , its in adequate
 Lets look at the Lyman #548657   a 450 grain conical  and you the same loads as above . But what we see is that at 100 yards this conical  puts out 1133 ……MMM less then the 30.30 but still adequate for  elk? .
 Now if we jump to the round ball what do we find ? Well for the 54  we are down to 618 at 100  but at 50 yards guess what , we are right into the energy levels of the conical at 100 aren’t we
 Lets for giggles look at the 45 .70 . In and of itself a caliber that has taken  a whole lot of elk moose and what have you . But guess what  , even with a 405 grain conical its only got 1227ftlbs at 100 yards .
 So if we want to play energies  then by rights  if you would take a shot with a conical at 100 yards with any of those rounds you shouldn’t worry  about taking a shot at 50 or 75 yards with a RB

 Now those numbers come from lyman and Benelli  you can cross reference them if you like .

 My point is that if a conical  is ok at 100 yards with its energy levels  then a RB is also ok at 50
 If a RB energy of around 600flbs is adequate at 100 yards then a conicals  will still be adequate at 150

 Both projectiles are very adequate within their given ranges . The  real question is at what distances  is one shooting or should one BE shooting .

 Yes the energy of a heavy conical is better at close range , but is it needed ? Well that’s up to the situation isn’t  it  and that’s why I chose the conical for areas where  I absolutely  need that energy

 Another thing we forget all to often is the wound channel itself . A smaller round traveling faster  creates an tremendous secondary  wound  but a smaller primary one .
 When you slow that  velocity but   raise  the weight  you get a large primary but often smaller secondary .
 the bruising and  blood that you see with center fire rounds . thats the secondary wound channel  cause by small rounds with high velocities imparting their energy

 Its really the same old argument of whats better , complete pass through  or  penetration but  without complete pass through
 On one hand  with the complete pass through you get   an exit wound . But the round also has not used all its energy  in the target . So to say my round is delivering Xftlbs at X means diddle if  it doesn’t use it
 But with a round that doesn’t achieve complete pass through ,only has one wound  BUT all its energy as been expelled within the target .

 Both will do the job , both will kill just as adequately 

[longcaribiner]

"I believe a flat-tipped slug is still more aerodynamic than the same diameter RB - much more."

Never.  A flat tipped slug is far more unstable and thoroughly unsuitable for mid range and long range.

Will it carry it's energy further than a round ball because it weighs more and is longer?  Sure certainly.  It's a matter of inertia winning over aerodynamics, not being more aerodynamic. 

I agree that a round ball isn't much for distances beyond 100 yds.  However, a the super whoop de doo bullets for in-lines in the 210 to 320 grain range aint worth squat beyond 175 yds.  Now, a Gibbs style gun shooting a 450 or 500 grain bullet shaped like a BPCR Postell will kill em out to 500 yds, with less powder.  Those longer Bullets will retain stability much farther. 

The short conical bullets every in liner is gobbling up are really not much different than the 45 long colt and 44 mag bullets expanded to 50 cal.  There isn't a sane person that would claim those are distance bullets.   In fact on a very unscientific test, I saw two buddies shooting at 150 yds with muzzleloaders.  One with a traditional gun and round balls the other with some sidelock fast twist conical gun.  The 310 grain bullets were already keyholing at 150 yds.  Could have been the load, the muzzle crown, the rifling, but the concials that seemed to do great at 100 were already tipping at 150.     

[Swampman]

A round ball has the worst ballistic coefficient of any projectile.  That's why it sheds velocity like a stripper looking at a hand full of dollar bills.

[Idaho Ron]

Cap,  I agree with what you are saying there. Yes a 30-30 with a 170 gr is enough @ 100 yards if the shooter is good enough to NOT hit the shoulder. Does a 54 cal PRB have enough energy to harvest elk at 50 yards. I would say so, but i have never done it. I do know guys that have. So I am not arguing there either.
You said  "So if we want to play energies  then by rights  if you would take a shot with a conical at 100 yards with any of those rounds you shouldn’t worry  about taking a shot at 50 or 75 yards with a RB "
I agree with what you said in this statement.

longcaribiner, You said "A flat tipped slug is far more unstable and thoroughly unsuitable for mid range and long range"
This bullet is a lyman 457121PH it is also called the Whitworth.


This bullet has a flat tip but I can tell you it is stable at up to 300 yards in my rifle with a 1-18 twist. I have no reason to believe it would not be still stable out farther. This Bullet is used in long range ML shoots. Is it used from 600 out to 1000?  I am not sure. The big thing here is is the rate of twist enough to keep a bullet stable. Also there has been some writings about bullets becoming unstable due to speed drop.  The way I understand it that is the reason most of the Rigbys and such shoot charges in the 70 gr range is to help keep them stable.
It takes a fast twist and a bullet that matches the twist for a bullet to stay stable for long distance.  Bowhunter57 also need to keep that in mind as well. Good call.  Ron

[dla]

If the twist rate is too slow then the bullet will tumble. Otherwise you can shoot a wadcutter 1000 yds accurately.

I suspect that the 1:48 twist rate is marginal, but probably won't strip if shot fast. If a 300'ish gr was tumbling at 150 yds, I would suspect that it isn't spinning - stripped in lands, or the twist rate is just too slow.

Optimum twist rate for 0.5" diameter x 1" length slug is 1:38. As you go longer, the twist rate needs to be faster.

[captchee]

Couple things here to keep in mind since we are getting off track anyway .
 See we kinda take a different  route to the end result .
 Large conicals yes carry a lot of energy but that’s from their weight.
 That same energy  or more can be achieved  by a smaller projectile IF that projectile has the velocity to convert its weight to energy ,but we are confined by  the properties of lead

. The long distance folks shooting the Rigby  and Tryon rifles play dangerously close to  limits . To fast and the projectile starts coming apart. As this happens it becomes un stable .
 The other thing to remember is the diameter projectile dictates how much spin it needs to be stable . A smaller diameter takes a faster spin   it just doesn’t have the gyroscopic effect that a large  diameter has . This plays greatly  in the RB
 But also what happens when you get smaller and tighten the twist you also add recoil because you build more pressure  which converts to higher velocities  and  if every thing holds together , high energies  which when hunting coverts to greater secondary wound channels
 Now these high energy levels can also be obtained  with a muzzleloader shooting conical but it normally takes high charges of 150 grains or more  . But it’s a trade off  because in order to keep the projectile intact you cant use just lead , it has to be an alloy or that lead has to be jacketed 

 Muzzleloading folks get around this by going bigger . By bigger we can be slower , the bullet will hold together  and it will have the energy . But by going slower and bigger we get worse trajectory
 Enter  the modern  conical designs  and big powder charges .

 if grey beard will  indulge me here for a second to make a point  about projectile designs 

 Consider this  a 270  lists  with a 150 grain core lock is  coming in at  just over 2000 Ftlbs at 100 yards  BUT if you look at say Winchesters X-150/50  with 3 pellets  and firing a 375 grain  buffallo SSB  guess what ,,, that 270 is lacking  and comes right in there with a 7mm mouser . Were not talking a 54 cal here but a 50 cal
 With the new designs  you can even find combinations in 45 cal that  exceeds the energy at 100 yards of even a 300 savage
 Take savages model 10 ml II  firing a 45 caliber barns expander with 3 pellets . 150 grains . According to savage that combo is putting out 1729ftlbs of energy  at 100 yards  and just under 2500 at the muzzle 

 Where does this all lead ? Simple . If these folks can make you believe that suddenly  after 300 years the round ball  isn’t adequate  and that you need these  new designs , then you will pay 2 -3 bucks a  piece for them .
  They will make you believe you need a new gun  and a scope  to take advantage of  that improved energy at those longer distances  and thus get the most from their designs .
 that’s why the need for all the new wizz bang doodad super duper  conical designs

[dla]

The other thing to remember is the diameter projectile dictates how much spin it needs to be stable . A smaller diameter takes a faster spin   it just doesn’t have the gyroscopic effect that a large  diameter has . This plays greatly  in the RB.

Actually the relationship is diameter versus length. For a given diameter, the longer the bullet, the faster twist you need to stabilize it. The common 1:66 twist rate is correct for a 45cal RB, and a little faster than necessary for a 50cal. But 1:48 is too slow for 2:1 length to width ratio. You need a weight-forward design so that it is effectively drag stabilized, which is probably why hollowbase designs work.

I've no worthwhile experience with muzzleloaders (having only shot a .36cal RB rifle), so I'm not trying to be Mr.Smartypants. But I was playing with a rifling twist rate calculator at http://www.realguns.com/calculators/riflingtwist.html

[Idaho Ron]

Cap, you said
 "That same energy  or more can be achieved  by a smaller projectile IF that projectile has the velocity to convert its weight to energy"
That smaller projectile can contain high energy but the problem as you already know is it does not have enough weight to keep the forward motion once resistance is encountered.  They tend to over expand or "blow up" if they are not controlled or made of a hard alloy.
You said
"The other thing to remember is the diameter projectile dictates how much spin it needs to be stable . A smaller diameter takes a faster spin  it just doesn’t have the gyroscopic effect that a large  diameter has "
I am sorry but I have to call a little BS here. It is the length of the bullet along with the diameter that dictates the rate of twist. For example.  A 22 caliber that shoots a 45 gr bullet might have a 1-12 twist. A 22 that shoots a 70 gr bullet will have a 1-9 twist. Also velocity has a minor role in it as well. There is more to it than just pure   "the smaller the bore the faster the twist"
Where is this going? well we all know a round ball will kill animals. If you keep the shots close and are willing to pass up iffy shots and keep the caliber large enough yes they will work. Big heavy Conicals will give more "thump" or I seen it called Whomp and Stomp for the caliber you are using. Will they extend the range of a muzzleloader? Yes, but only if the shooter is capable of placing the shot.  My vote as you know is whomp and stomp with a big conical.  I see no need to lower the level of power by using a PRB when it comes to a ML.
We have given poor  Bowhunter57 a lot to chew on.  Ron

[Bowhunter57]

Thank you, to all that have replied! 

Wow! What a Round Ball vs. Conical debate this thread has turned out to be and some very revealing information too. The bottom line seems to be that a Round Ball will kill effectively, but at less range than a Conical bullet. Attaining accuracy doesn't seem to be an issue with either projectile.

I believe that I'll hold out for a barrel that will shoot conicals. I may be able to purchase a barrel for the Poor Boy that will have a quicker twist, but I haven't had time to research that out, yet.

As a bowhunter I prefer to get in close, but I also like to enjoy a little "extra" edge, if I can get it.

Good hunting, Bowhunter57