I was wrong about my recent Ballistic Tip

[rickt300]

I have been doing a lot of handyman type repairs, water leaks, sprinkler system repairs etc. Well while looking for some black silicon on my work bench i came across the bloody piece of meat that I though was the jacket of the 150 grain Ballistic Tip that had imbedded itself inside of the shoulder blade. Turns out it was a piece of spinal bone covered in meat. So in reality it penetrated completely leaving a nice round exit hole thru the far shoulder blade and kept on going.  So if my not cleaning off this piece of bone had anything to do with all the childish and crass posts and me starting to think it was funny I apologize for it.

[nomosendero]

Maybe your Deer wasn't small enough, evidently the babies & small Does require a 416 Rigby!!! It has been my problem too when harvesting Does, I was shooting eating size larger ones only. Yes, we harvest Does each year & it has been going on longer than in ANY Western State. And my decision to shoot eating size Does (big enough to eat)  has nothing to do with Peta, I don't think they would want me to shoot Does period or Bucks for that matter. What that rant was about is a mystery to me, I just read that weird post a few minutes ago.

[rickt300]

On my lease we are required to fill our deer tags, this most certainly includes the does. I kind of get to know them during the rut because I get to watch them while hunting for the bucks. I definitly make every effort to shoot does without fawns.

[nomosendero]

On my lease we are required to fill our deer tags, this most certainly includes the does. I kind of get to know them during the rut because I get to watch them while hunting for the bucks. I definitly make every effort to shoot does without fawns.

I agree & do the same. Because we keep the Doe numbers down & have more food plots, the Buck quality is starting to improve.

[billy_56081]

Rick,It takes a real man to admit when they are wrong. Your honesty is commendable.

[Mac11700]

I didn't read your post...so I don't know what you said...but...thanks for sharing...

Game management is important...and thinning the herd is needed when they over populate...but...it needs to be done respectfully...We've been told not to talk about ethics on this forum...so...I won't...but a nice read for those interested...http://www.huntfairchase.com/index.php/fuseaction/ethics.now

Have a Great 1

Mac

[victorcharlie]

Rick....your a sly fellow!

[rickt300]

I always use my experiences to judge just about anything and so far I haven't recovered a Ballistic Tip bullet. The only bullets I ever fired at a game animal that didn't perform properly either didn't expand (worst case, several instances) or flew apart (once). The latter was a 130 grain Pro Hunter. Fired from a 270 into the shoulder of a doe antelope at 50 feet it hit right on the bone high on the upper leg bone. This bullet made a crater 6 inches across, broke the bone and blew bone fragments into the chest. The hole in the rib cage was less than an inch across and I am certain some of the bullet made it in. The antelope made it half a mile before I caught up with it and finished it. So in hunting over 36 years I have had exactly 4 bullet failures. I rarely used "Premium" bullets and the few times I did on elk two long tracking sessions ensued. One, a early Barnes x failed to expand and another a Partition I put into the shoulder of a big elk used up most of it's energy destroying edible meat and thick bone then making a narrow track thru the lungs. I still use Sierra's and Nosler Partitions but I definitly put my bullets where their energy will do the most good, the ribs, the spine or the neck in front of the shoulder. Contrary to other experiences I have never had a bullet fail to penetrate a shoulder blade and consider a hit there to be aimed at the spine.  I generally used the standard Speer Hotcor spitzer in 180 grain fired from my 30-06 for my elk hunting and this combination gave me 13 one shot kills in a row. Rest assured that they were not all perfect broadsie hits either. I recovered some of them and some sailed on thru. I would hunt elk with this combination again with no qualms.  So on average I have had less than 2% failure rate as to bullet performance on game ranging from antelope to black bears and elk in all those years, I really must be blessed.

[victorcharlie]

I I really must be blessed.

Yes....you are......

While I agree with you Rickt.......I must say......You sure know how to stir the pot......

[coyotejoe]

I didn't weigh in on the original "discussion" because it was already a long winded pissin' contest when I first saw it. But I did post on November 19 about my experience with the 120 gr. BT from my 6.5x55. Now if you had asked me a couple of months ago I would have said I love that bullet, it has taken several deer with fine results and I would even have used them for elk. This year however, same rifle and load, I got a ribcage ENTRANCE wound about 3"x4" on  a doe at about 50 yards and an exit wound that looked more like an entrance. The wife's small buck was a straight on frontal chest shot, also at about 50 yards. Normal entrance but multiple exits of small fragments. I found a flake of jacket metal inside a ventricle of the heart which had not been punctured and the wife found a pinkie nail size bit of jacket in a piece of liver which she was eating! Those bullets were loaded to about 27-2800 at the most and are by far the most explosive thing I've ever used on deer. Yes, both deer dropped quickly and, because of shot placement, there was little meat loss, but in a shoulder things would have been different. Next season I will be shooting 129 grain Hornadys for deer and antelope and maybe 140 partitions for elk. The BT is an explosive bullet, I've never seen such an entrance wound.

[jasonprox700]

Coyote Joe,
Have you tried the accubonds?  I tried them this year for the first time.  I shot a buck at about 50 yards, broadside.  Nice little entrance hole, about a 2" exit hole.  140 gr .280 loaded at about 2900 fps.  I was happy with the results.  I used to use gamekings, same results as the ballistic tips.

[Mac11700]

I am like others...I don't believe any standard cup & core bullet will hold together completely when shooting a deer up close..All of them will fragment to some degree or another...even the triple shocks will loose there petals at times when shot up close...This is nothing unexpected...The most destructive bullet I have ever used on a deer was the 140 grain boat tail Hornady out of my 270...HUGE entrance wound when shot up close...more so than any BT I have ever shot up close...but...both are excellent accurate bullets that behaves well when shot further out...I've shot deer from off the end of the muzzle to way past 400 yards with ballistic tips...I've yet to have one that didn't kill what I hit properly with them...If I know I am going to be hunting close I will use the Partitions or Accubonds for hand loads...or for factory I'll use the same or Federals Fusion bullets.....or Grand Slams & Trophy Bonded Bear Claws...I will try some of the Interbonds to see how they do at some point...but I don't expect much more from them as I get with any other bonded bullet..As far as using them for Elk...I would prefer to have the best I could buy that shoots accurately and holds together better than anything else at any distance ...It just cost too much for me to go..so the bullets are the least expensive part of my equation...If folks want to...they can read what Layne Simpson has to say about them in the Nosler #5 reloading manual..pages #58-62...he offers some real good advise about when & where to use them...

Mac

[victorcharlie]

If I'm going to hunt close I leave the .270 at home.  The muzzle velocity of my .35 is much better suited for a close shot.

Lets see......we get something with hyper velocity and then expect the bullet to stay together......IMO, if ya slow it down to around 2400 fps at impact or slower, the bullet will perform just fine in most cases.

Use the right tool for the job......

[rickt300]

I think what I like about the Ballistic Tips is that I can start a bullet out at a sedate speed, say 2700 fps and get internal damage comparable to a high velocity magnum. On top of that get good exit holes though so far the heart was so damaged it could not pump enough blood for tracking. Hasn't mattered though.  I think the use of Ballistic Tips in high velocity magnums is probably best applied at ranges farther than 200 yards though I haven't had the chance to test his theory.

[coyotejoe]

Rick, my 120 grain 6.5 BTs were started about 2700 and I got an entrance wound bigger than my fist with fragments going everywhere.  It was a quartering away angle so I held well back on the rigcage to angle toward the off side shoulder. No problem tracking that one, there were globs of stomach contents everywhere. I agree that most bullets will break up but I've never seen one just EXPLODE ! As I said, I've been well satisfied with Ballistic tips on several deer in the past but I won't trust them again, just too explosive.

[rickt300]

I have not used any of the light for caliber Ballistic Tips. I like to shoot the heavier versions like the 150 in 7MM and the 165 or 180 in 30 caliber, in fact I generally shoot bullets that are on the heavy end for the application. In my 6.5x55 I settled on the 140 grain Hornady Spire point at 2500 fps and it never failed me, giving very good penetration. It was my iron sight rifle when my eyes were good enough to use irons. I still load this bullet for that rifle though it now wears a 3x Weaver.

[Coyote Hunter]

coyotejoe –

Your experience mirrors that of many others.  Go to any hunting forum and you can find examples.

People berate BT users for not using them within their design parameters, which Nosler states is 3,000fps at impact.   Personally I think that is much too high for reliable performance but Nosler then loads BT hunting bullets to 3,520fps (100g BT, .257 WBY) in their own ammo and provides load data for up to 3,793fps (85g Solid Base and CT Ballistic Silvertip, .257 WBY).  Kind of a mixed message there, wouldn’t you say?  Even many proponents of the BT’s think the useful maximum impact velocity is well below 3,000fps.

Some folks say you can’t find a bullet that works for everything.  That may be as I wouldn’t choose the same bullet for high-volume varminting that I would choose for elk, just to pick one example.  But the truth is that for big game hunting there are bullets that work much better than BT’s over a much broader variety of velocities.  Bullets that don’t explode on impact regardless of the velocity yet open reliably at low velocities.

Even Nosler recognizes this.  From their web site:
Min/Max FPS       Bullet
1600/3000         Ballistic Tip Hunting
1600/3100         AccuBond
1800/Unlimited    Partition
No info           CT Ballistic Silvertip, E-tip, Solid Base         

Compare those to a North Fork 130g 7mm bullet with a functional range of 1500-3500fps per the manufacturer. 

In fact, bullets like the North Fork, Trophy Bonded, new Tipped Trophy Bonded, A-Frame, TSX/TTSX/MRX, E-Tip and so on, simply are not going to explode on game.  Some may lose petals but the remainder of the bullet will continue to penetrate – a result that IMHO is much preferred to a blow up that results in shallow penetration.

Is the Ballistic Tip a bad bullet?  No.  In fact it is a fine example of modern cup-and-core bullet technology.  But at the end of the day it is a cup-and-core bullet and performs as such. 

Personally, I don’t hunt with them, even in my .308 Win and .30-06 where I limit velocities to 2660fps and 2812fps respectfully.  And I wouldn’t consider them for my rifles where velocities are even greater.  I’ve been hunting antelope, deer and elk for 25 years, have taken game from a few feet to 350 yards and have never had a blow-up.  But I’ve never used Ballistic Tips for big game either - there are simply too many reports like yours.

[rickt300]

Actually I think the best impact velocity is less than 2700 fps. On some of the other forums you will find diverse opinions on the Ballistic Tips for sure. Many don't like the awesome destructive tendencies (large ugly wounds) but others like the really quick kills. I say they are not for everyone nor are they a general purpose bullet but for what they are designed for they do fine. Who knows I may experience a lack of penetration using the 95 grain ballistic tips when I take my does weekend after next.  The 95 grain 6MM ballistic tip seems to be universally liked though but I will have to find out for myself.

[Coyote Hunter]

Actually I think the best impact velocity is less than 2700 fps.

Something we agree on.

…
I say they are not for everyone nor are they a general purpose bullet but for what they are designed for they do fine. Who knows I may experience a lack of penetration using the 95 grain ballistic tips when I take my does weekend after next.  The 95 grain 6MM ballistic tip seems to be universally liked though but I will have to find out for myself.

Here’s wishing you the best of luck.

[Todd1700]

People berate BT users for not using them within their design parameters, which Nosler states is 3,000fps at impact.

This is what gets me when BT defenders start claiming that people who have had problems with them were using them wrong. Or using the wrong weight bullet. Wrong according to who? Nosler certainly markets and sells these bullets as suitable for deer sized game. I haven't seen anything from Nosler that said use only the 180 gr BT for deer with a 30 caliber rifle. Or never shoot a deer with a BT if it's closer than 100 yards. Or only use them at speeds less than 2700 fps. If the people using the 150 grain BT bullet out of a
30-06 for deer are idiots then please tell me what that bullet is supposed to be used for? Gophers? All of the people and situations I mentioned in the original thread about BT's were not doing anything outside the parameters of what nosler claimed these bullets were suited to do.

[NONYA]

And my posts in this thread continue to disappear even though i am breaking none of the GBO rules in them...what a place,your opinion is valid until it conflicts with that of the bigshots and then your posts get deleted.There arre MANY people experiencing BT failures and I hope they continue to report them here so the know it alls that called me a liar for reporting mine can be shown the light.These bullets come apart on game,even when used well within Noslers recommended limits,deleting my posts isnt going to change the quality of the bullet you have chosen to defend,just makes it very obvious that you dont want the truth posted here.If ignorance is bliss there are a bunch of BT defenders livin the dream here on GBO.

[rickt300]

Nonya, I don't mind you stating your opinion or experiences. Just because my experiences don't match yours so what. Sort of a mystery though. Our main point of difference is that you feel that a ballistic tip or any other bullet should give complete penetration from any angle. For what I use the BT's for I want almost instant drops on shots that don't destroy meat. The property I hunt on has very few large openings and the cover is very thick, most of it is almost impossible to walk and some is impossible to walk in and it is 4 wheeler proof.  Up until this year I shot every deer in the neck in front of the shoulder, same with hogs. I am not planning to use BT's on hogs for my night hunting as I like to hit them high shoulder into the spine or in the neck which can be pretty thick on a 400 pound feral hog. The hogs are why I load Partitions in my 7x57 and generally plan on using my 358 , 35 Whelen or 444 marlin for them on my night hunts. Other differences over Ballistic Tips are those looking for a does everything bullet from antelope to elk definitly should look at other options. The only bullets I have loaded for my 7MM RM have weighed over 160 grains or have been Nosler Partitions of 140-160 grains. I thougt about loading Ballistic Tips in it but just couldn't see the reason for it as it's high velocity gives plenty of destruction with the tougher bullets.

[rickt300]

About Nosler claiming the bullets are good for impact velocities of 3000 fps I can't say I agree. In fact if I were expecting to hunt an area where this was a possibility I would reduce the load to less than 3000 fps. This would be for any bullet I load. I just don't need that much impact velocity, I prefer a heavier bullet to high velocity.

[jro45]

I don'y like those Ballistic Tip bullets because they make a big hole and ruin alot of meat. I prefir the sp bullets that mushroom and thats enough for me.

[rickt300]

I use Ballistic Tips and Sierra bullets so I can put them where they don't destroy any meat and still get quick kills.

[Graybeard]

Nonya you have been told repeatedly that you ARE NOT going to be allowed to conduct your personal smear campaign against Nosler on this site. Sooner or later you'll get the message. You are welcome to report actual experiences good or bad.

BUT YOU WILL NOT CONDUCT A PERSONAL HATE/SMEAR CAMPAIGN AGAINST THEM OR ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER ON THIS SITE.

So long as your post continue in that vein they will continue to disappear it's that simple.

[Todd1700]

I use Ballistic Tips and Sierra bullets so I can put them where they don't destroy any meat

Then you must only take perfect broadside shots then. But hey I also put my ballistic tip bullets where they won't destroy any meat. Know where I put them? In the trash can.   

[rickt300]

Todd1700, that is funny, have to admit. You would be smarter not to buy them. I will use them on any hit I can make solidy into the rib cage or neck which covers a lot of ground.

[SHOOTALL]

ballistic tips have worked for me for years , i see some have had failure with them and moved on ( smart thing to do on their part ) .
as long as they work for me and others , i will use them , but i feel it a waste of time to expect those who select other bullets to change back . best i can figure is we hunt different and that to is OK !
what is not smart IMHO is to wage a campaign to get all to hate a brand , tell your experience and move on , it gets far more creditability that way than when it looks like you have an axe to grind !
it does no one any good when we get into a Mexican stand off over power and who can say what !
Its not my place to say this but what the heck - GB rules the site PERIOD and all the pushing gets us is  more time spent reading what ain't going to be allowed instead of useful information !
so if your choice of bullet failed tell us , if you know why tell us why , if you make a switch tell us and tell us how the new choice worked ! give the rest of us credit to see what benefit you offer , and for those of us not changing realize we may hunt different and have not yet experienced a failure ! our next shot may change our out look on the matter entirely !

[Graybeard]

OK Nonya let me make this clear enough so that even you can understand it.

How long before you delete the posts of everyone else reporting these "incidents"?

No one except YOU is reporting "these incidents". Others have reported what they took to be bullet failures and like you when you did only that were allowed to do so. But no one else except you is on a hate campaign to smear all products made by one company. You are going to stop that here or I am going to stop you completely at this site. Clear enough for you?

If you hadnt allowed the peanut gallery to run their own smear campaign calling me every name in the book without seeing fit to delete posts as you do mine(the ones with no personal attacks) then maybe i would drop it,but you didnt and I wont.

There is no peanut gallery here, that was on the Howdy Doody show. No one here has called you ANY names at all. Folks have said they do not believe the story you are telling about the one antelope fawn shot with something and a huge gaping hole is shown in your photo that is far less than normal for your images. It's unclear, out of focus and not presented in the manner of your normal photos. I happen to be one of those who has said I don't believe it happened in the way you've explained it. I cannot and do not know what happened that day. Personally I think you got confused as to which side is entrance and exit. That is not calling you a liar and no one here has. We've merely said we don't believe the story as presented. If you do not and cannot understand the difference they problem lies with you not us.

YES you are going to drop it or take a time out enforced by me. The choice is yours. No one but you is making personal attacks why you cannot see that I dunno.

Keep deleting posts that dont break any but the new unwritten rule about noslers bullets"your opinion will be posative or it isnt valid and shall be deleted". I have seen the same approach here when someone has a handi come apart on them,guess its nothing new.

It is NOT an unwritten rule you are breaking. You are on a personal campaign to discredit the products of one company that you have some how for some reason took a disliking to. It just so happens the company is a leader in the bullet manufacturing business and the rest of the world except you recognizes that leadership role and acknowledges that they make some of the very best bullets out there.

If you are not happy with their bullets then don't buy them it's as simple as that. We've let you report your stories of the supposed failures you've experienced with them. IF you felt they didn't work then why the hell did you keep buying and using them? Smart folks stop buying and using things they feel don't work. Be smart and stop buying their bullets if you don't like them. But you will not use GBO as a platform for a hate campaign against Nosler or anyone else whether that be an individual or business. We do have WRITTEN rules against that not unwritten ones.

Lots of negative opinions are posted here every day and left for all to view so you'll not convince anyone but yourself of that one. That one ain't gonna fly. Your own negative opinions of Nosler bullets are still here. What gets deleted are your rants with no bearing of the company as a whole and all their products being junk. You're not gonna do that here. Stop you will one way or another.

Dunno what your comment about handis refers to I have little direct involvement with those forums and don't delete anything there as a rule.

So play nice from now on and end your attacks and slam campaigns against folks both companies and individuals. Follow the rules of no personal attacks and no name calling or face censure with a time out as the first step.

As I've said before both to you and some of the folks complaining about you and your antics here I like you as an idividual. I think your stories and your photos add a lot to the site and make you a worthwhile part of the GBO site. But no one is exempt from the site rules and rest assured that applies to you as well. Don't force my hand thinking you are above the rules. You are not.