disappointed with XTP bullets

[ccoker]

while I know every animal is different and one example does not mean that much I have to say I was pretty disappointed with the 240g XTP load in my gun (scoped blackhawk bisley), this was the factory load and has grouped well at the range..

just got back from a hunt where I shot about a 90lb whitetail yesterday everning
70 yards lasered from stand to deer

shot and the deer ran off, perfect broadside presentation
deer came back to the same spot a few moments later
I was like "there's NO way I missed that deer"
but it was there along with a little buck...
so, I shot again and this time the deer piled up quickly

went down there and sure enough, there were two entry wounds,
the first shot hit front high shoulder, broke a rib and lodged far side, deer came back and was feeding.
wow, tough doe
2nd shot was perfect behind the shoulder and went through the vitals and and far rub cage and lodged under the far side fur
now, the 2nd shot I am fine with because the deer died fast due to a well placed shot although I was surprised it didn't exit

but the first shot sure seems like it should have stopped the deer, obviously no vitals were hit, but I was surprised it didn't make it to the far side shoulder.. I shot a deer about the same weight and about 50 yards away with a 41 mag with 240g winchester platinum tips and it went in right behind the shoulder and exited the far shoulder with about a 1.5" hole (didn't like the meet loss though)

like I said, I know each animal that's shot is unique and the bullet did the job on the 2nd properly placed hit, but it does erode my confidence on the round and I just ordered a bunch to reload next week

I think it's time to go hardcast and know I will get complete penetration and a good blood trail

on a positive note, my son shot his 2nd deer, a doe at about 90 yards with a 243, perfect behind the shoulder shot, deer ran about 30 yards and dropped, the 80g bullet didn't exit but the shot was perfect and the lungs were soup.. fine with me

both deer are quartered out on ice

[Luckyducker]

Don't blame the  bullet for a not being placed in the boiler room.  Any caliber with any bullet could have delivered the same result, period.  Sometimes we just don't do our job, and I am not blaming you for the shot placement either but you had far more control over it than your bullet.  I shot a fair buck with a 30/06 150 grain Hornady Interlock bullet a few years ago, yup, hit it too high and missed the vitals.  I followed that deer for 3/4 mi. over some rugged Wolf river bluff country in the snow with absolutely no blood trail.  I could sense that this deer was stopping and turning to look at me and when I would get up a little farther I would see his tracks where he did exactly that.  I never recovered that deer or got another shot at him but that does not negate all the bang/flop shots on other deer given with this bullet.  I have never shot a deer with a cast slug and I would have to see one completely penetrate and exit deer sized game every time using a revolver.  I think the XTP is about as good as it gets with pistol hunting bullets.   Just my two cents worth on this subject.

[Glanceblamm]

I have had really good luck with the XTP's but then again, only have four handgun deer to my credit.
Three were taken with the 250gr xtp out of the .45 Colt @ around 1,100 fps and this years was with the 240gr out of the .44 mag @ 1,250 fps.
This years was the farthest but was still only 53yds and I got complete penetration and around a 3/4" exit hole.

These guys here at GB make great sense when they talk hard cast and not really having to push them that hard to achieve complete penetration regardless of the angle. The XTP is sometimes described as trying to push a parachute through the animal. I really need to get started on finding the right bullet then getting the mold & sizer.
Congratulations On Your Deer!

[Lloyd Smale]

as anyone that knows me here knows im a big fan of cast bullets and use them exclucively. But in your case you were better off with the xtp. A cast bullet hit would have done nothing more then the xtp if it exited it would probably been to high of a hole to get a blood trail out of anyway and the bleading would have stayed in the chest cavity. I would think that your xtp probably did more internal dammage then a cast would have. Bottom line was covered by luckyducker if you dont put it in the boileroom dont expect to recover an animal.

[ccoker]

yeah, I know all about putting it in the "right spot"
I guess my thought was a perhaps a hardcast would have gone through the other shoulder and perhaps broke it and downed the deer
obviously the 2nd shot that was put where it was supposed to did what was required

[odie-wan]

I actually came on the site tonight to post up about my first handgun whitetail and I was VERY excited about my XTP's performance Saturday.  However, according to Lyman's 48th ed., mine bullet should have been at around 1,850 fps muzzle velocity from my 10" .44 mag T/C G2.  At 40 yards, facing straight at me, the bullet hit her square between the shoulders, centered the heart and didn't stop until it went through part of the liver, guts and left the back end of the rib cage.   I could put my fist through the heart.  I agree with what was said above regarding shot placement but IMHO terminal bullet performance has something to do velocity as well.  Just my limited experience with pistol hunting.

Sean

[blhof]

I got a button buck last year with a Contender pistol in 30/30 with Federal 150 gr soft nose.  The deer piled up, but the entrance and exit hole were the same size.  It entered behind left shoulder between the ribs and exited the right chest, between the ribs, through both lungs and heart, but no expansion.  Sometimes the best bullet in the right spot is a degree off and performs differently than it's usual.  I've taken deer with the above bullet with great expansion and damage; this was the first through and through without expansion, or at least significant expansion.

[Lloyd Smale]

the last two post are opposite ends of bullet performance and one of the reasons i dont care for jacketed  bullets. The 3030 tc using factory ammo is lossing probably 500 fps over a rifle and expansion especially past a 100 yards is going to be dicey. The other example goes the other way. 1800 fps with a xtp is about 400 fps to much and your just asking for bullet failure. Ive seen them fail on the shoulder of a hog at much less velocity.  The 44 is an easy fix. Either load down your xtp to 1400 fps max or swithch to hardcast or a 300 grain jacketed at 1400 fps max. You will get much more reliable bullet performance. the 3030 is a little trickier as in my opinion (for what its worth) .30 cal is about the bare minimum to give good clean kills with a flat nose cast bullet but a guy should be shooting 150s-180s at about 1800 fps to do it and a contendor is going to be sweating getting them to that speed. What i would consider loading in that gun is one of the 130s designed just for single shot pistols. Nice thing with them too is that there spitzters and are going to shoot flatter and there designed to open up at handgun velocity. Alot of game is killed with missmatched gun/bullet combos and it makes even some veteran hunters defend the loads but eventually a load like either of these is going to jump up and bite you. Hopefully it wont be when a once in a lifetime buck is in your sights.

[Catfish]

  A couple of thing struck me funny. I`ve killed several deer with a .44 mag. over the years and have several friends that have taken several deer with my relaods. With all of the deer taken most were with the 240 gn. Sierra HP and only 1 bullet did not pass clear through. That was in a 10 pt. buck in the 200 lb. range that was shot in the left rear quarter at 135 yrds. The bullet was recovered just under the skin of the right frount shoulder. I prefer the Sierras over the Hornadys because I seem to get alot better terminal performance with them.
   Lloyd was exacty right when he said you have to shoot the right bullet at the right velosities for it to preform properly. Years ago I though I could get more range if I went to the 180 gn. bullets in my .44 mag. The first one I shot at a deer was a 10 yrd. shot into the shoulder of a 60 lb. deer. From the angle of the shot I was shooting through thr shoulder and into the heart. There was a hole you could have shoved a 16 oz. water glass where the bullet went in, but it did not get to the heart. It took a second shot to put it down. I never used 180 gn. bullets on deer again.

[Graybeard]

I've shot a lot of game more than just deer with the .44 Magnum using 240 JHPs mostly XTPs but also with the pre-XTP Hornady JHPs and Nosler JHPs as well. I don't recall any ever staying in the game. I did have a 300 XTP stay in a large hog I shot between the eyes as he came my way from about 15'. That one ended up in the ham just under the hide. The jacket separated but was found adjacent to the core under the hide so I assume it stayed together until it contacted the hide.

I admit to be a bit displeased it separated and also that it failed to exit but the hog was DRT so I can't actually claim bullet failure just cuz it didn't do what I had expected of it. My expectations just weren't realistic.

[ccoker]

Graybeard, I guess you nailed it, perhaps it was just my expectation that I would get complete penetration..
I really "expected" to get complete penetration on the shot right behind the front shoulder, I was surprised it didn't exit the far side
dead is dead of course...

I was hunting at my bud's place about 5 miles west of the YO Ranch and there have been a lot of hogs lately and going forward I think I just feel better using hardcast, there's a lot of more experienced handgun hunters on here than me and there's definitely a bias towards HC here and I now "get it"

I have never lost a deer or hog when rifle hunting and have luckily never had a bad shot...

[Graybeard]

I'm one who prefers JHPs on small soft critters like deer but prefer hard cast on bigger and tougher critters such as hogs, elk, moose, etc. But HC works well on all so going with them exclusively is never a bad idea I just kinda prefer the JHPs on game that doesn't offer much challenge to the JHP. That's not to say however they will always exit just cause they seem to have for me.

I almost always wait for a broadside presentation and shoot for the lungs thru the ribs only. I do at times deviate from that but try hard not to with JHPs.

[ccoker]

thanks
the places I generally hunt, deer are more prevelant but hogs are certainly around and sometimes I will do a dedicated hog hunt.
I like to have one load for all game I am going to deal with and sight the gun in with it and shoot it at varying ranges a bunch to "know the gun/load"

[ccoker]

I have been researching various hardcasts and spoke with Marshall Stanton at Beartooth for a bit
he recommended the 265g WFN GC in a .431 diameter for my gun and intended use
real nice guy even recommended a load of 12.5g of #5 for around a 1150 FPS load, said that is a sweet load in that particular gun
got some on order

[odie-wan]

Thanks for the input on "proper" velocity on the XTP.  Didn't cross my mind that it would fail if I pushed it too fast since it patterns so well out of my gun.  I also packed some 215 gr. gas check Keith style loads that I had intended for any hog encounters.  I thought the expansion of the XTP would perform better on whitetail but the Keith bullets should have done well on whitetail as well, no?

Sean

[Glanceblamm]

ccoker,
This will probably be what you are looking at but please note that the XTP & WFN pictured are in .45 cal
Quite a diff in the Meplat's and I do love those big clean cookie cutter holes whether they be on paper or hide.


These LBT types are some that I inherited and they shoot great although I have not done any testing beyond 50yds.
I have just enough of them left to try some 75yd & 100yd groups to see what is up.
I really do respect Lloyds advice to try a LFN  and other types before plunking down my money on an WFN mold.

[Larry Gibson]

ccoker

Exactly which factory load with the XTP?
What handgun and barrel length?
Have you chronographed that load in your handgun?

I've not recovered a 240 XTP in a deer yet either and you got two of them in the same deer!

Larry Gibson

[ccoker]

Hornday factory load # 44200, claims 1350 fps out of a 7.5" barrel which is what I have (ruger blackhawk hunter)
they feel a bit more stout than the Magtech 204g SPs

[Larry Gibson]

Hornday factory load # 44200, claims 1350 fps out of a 7.5" barrel which is what I have (ruger blackhawk hunter)
they feel a bit more stout than the Magtech 204g SPs

Interesting, I have not chronographed that factory load so I shant comment. However I push the 240 XTP to an honest (Oehler 35P) 1425 fps out of my 6 and 6 1/2" barreled .44s with H110.  I've not had any penetration problems.  They run 1290 fps out of my 4" Anaconda and no problems there either.  Would be interesting to know what the factory load is really doing out of your 7.5" Ruger. 

Larry Gibson

[ccoker]

yep
being as that I am getting back into reloading I may have to get me a chrono, oh darn, an excuse to buy another gun related item

[safetysheriff]

ccoker

Exactly which factory load with the XTP?
What handgun and barrel length?
Have you chronographed that load in your handgun?

I've not recovered a 240 XTP in a deer yet either and you got two of them in the same deer!

Larry Gibson

Larry,

i'm getting into this 'late'; but i think you've gotten started in the right direction.    something is missing here.    part of it, in my opinion, is that a 240 gr' bullet out of a .44 mag' (diameter and bullet construction) is more for larger, tougher game that provide more resistance to the bullet.   it's also hard to imagine a proper load leaving that bullet inside a 90# deer!    it just doesn't add up that the load was proper and the bullet failed by such a margin.    i can't imagine that deer coming back to feed any more either.....

ss' 

[ccoker]

well, perhaps I will be getting a chrono, because that's the way it happened...
I can assure you I was quite shocked that it took that first hit and came back like nothing happened
probably in a state of shock and really unware...

[v-man]

just to muddy the waters a bit;
last year I had a thru & thru double lung hit with a 300 gr .45 cal XTP on a 150 lb hog at 75yds. 4 hogs walked into a food plot. The one I shot ran off to my left with the other3 hogs after the shot but all 4 returned to continue feeding after about 2 minutes. Thinking I must have missed I raised my gun to shoot again but they saw me move and ran off to the right side before I could fire a second shot. I walked over to look for blood and found the dead pig just off the plot to the right with a perfect shot. How could itcome back andl try to feed after that kind of hit? You just don't always know what to expect from God's critters.

Last night on the hunting channel they showed an elk with blood pouring from a perfectly shot arrow still bugling and looking for the girl of his dreams right up till he dropped. (but hey, who can blame him?)

[Graybeard]

One "possible" exlanation for the piggie thing is that the fourth that returned was really a fifth not the same one. Not saying that's the case just saying it is one possible answer.

[Lloyd Smale]

One of the bufflao i shot with the 500 linebaugh did the same thing. took a double lung hit with a 450 lfngc at 1200fps and didnt miss a chew. Casually kept walking and eating till i put two more in him. Watching that and a couple more that ive seen hit with big handguns allways makes me chuckle when guys call them guns for dinasours! Even a fully stoked 500 or 475 is ballisticaly a light loaded 4570. It may buck and roar and you might think you just unleased the hammer of thor but reality your still no more overgunned on even deer sized game then someone shooting at one with an 3006

[safetysheriff]

although this was a factory load, i wonder if it was defective anyway.   i'm not debating some of the other ideas in topic.    there are recalls on factory loads at times; and nothing can say that a factory load even today is going to be perfect.

if it was a handload that was so lacking in performance one of the things i'd look for is powder 'bridging' in the measure if it was a stick powder being used.   that would account for a light, lower velocity load.    and......that's why i weigh so many of my cartridges even with spherical powders that do not bridge in a measure.    performance is what counts so weighing a sample of spherical charges, and weighing every charge of a stick powder, is a necessity to me.

take care,

ss' 

[LarryL]

I've only taken one deer with the XTP.  That was the buck pictured.  He was a pretty big deer, going 205# dressed weight.  The bullet was a factory 325 gr 480 Ruger out of a 7.5" SRH.  The deer was about 20 yds away.  The deer flinched just as I made the shot.  Perhaps he saw, smelled, or sensed something.  He did a quick crouch down just as my squeeze finished.  Instead of going in just behind and below the shoulder, it went in pretty much dead into the shoulder.  It shattered the near side shoulder bones into a multitude of pieces, just barely clipped the underside of the spine, going just behind the off side shoulder, and ended up under the hide on the far side.  Like Graybeard's example, the bullet core and jacket separated, but ended up perhaps 1/2" apart in the meat and fat just under the hide.

The deer went down at the shot.  He did some thrashing and tried to get up, and I finished with a neck shot.  After looking at the post mortem, I'm not sure there was enough damage to the spine to keep him anchored.  Given a few minutes, he might have gotten back up.  I also did not see much vitals damage.  I was surprised that at that close a range, the shoulder bones took enough off the 325 gr bullet to keep it from exiting.  I was also surprised at the separation, but since they were right together, it likely happened at the end of travel.