Shooting does

[Coyote Hunter]

This subject has come up a couple times on the Medium Bore forum.  Rather than start a thread there I have created this one and will link to it from the Medium Bore forum.

Here's  some questions:

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills.  Is it any less ethical to display females?

[Don Fischer]

If I have found out one thing for sure, it's that many people hate the word ethics, don't want you to even suggest what may be ethical and believe that anything legal is ethical. You have opened a huge can of worms.

[kx90]

This subject has come up a couple times on the Medium Bore forum.  Rather than start a thread there I have created this one and will link to it from the Medium Bore forum.

Here's  some questions:

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills.  Is it any less ethical to display females?

1.  Yes.
2.  If it's obviously smaller than average or it's still got spots then yes, they should be off limits.
3.  Why not?  I shoot does for the meat, I shoot bucks for them eat, the rack is a bonus.  Hell, just getting to see a deer in the woods is a bonus.

[dukkillr]

1) Yes

2)  It's up to you and your management plan.  I try my absolute best not to shoot young bucks, but not really from an ethics point of view.

3)  Uh, I don't know.  How would one do that?  I think part of the pride in shooting a big buck is the difficulty involved.  Certainly for some shooting a doe is a great accomplishment, but most hunters I know could shoot 25 or more does for every great buck they see. 

I've deleted a couple of posts in this thread.  It was not started to debate shot placement vs. premium bullets.  I will not allow threads to be hijacked by those who are carrying on a fight in a different thread.

[corbanzo]

Most definitely up to the management plan.  There are many state that want the does dead so they don't overpopulate.  Which is a good idea to me.  I don't think  that the mounting and displays have to do with ethics... they have to do with ego.  People are prouder the bigger the rack, it's just how life works.  I myself think that full mounts of does or cows are pretty cool...  but they still don't impress most people like a ten point buck or a 65" moose.

Up here in AK, most hunters don't have the chance to kill cows, and most that I know wouldn't if they got the chance, because they know that if many people are killing cows, they can hurt the population.  Which is already hurting. 

So that being said, I really don't think it has anything to do with ethics.  It is a game animal.  Male or female, they both put meat in the freezer.  You just have to find out killing what ratio of male to female will keep the population at a healthy and manageable level. 

[beemanbeme]

I'm not sure I would call it ethics but I think your view point changes over the years.  And, perhaps your knowledge.  Not to say that folks that kill does are smarter than folks that kill bucks. When I was younger (and more fit) I wanted to kill a buck, the bigger the better.  And to some extent, it was an ego thing.  I proved my fitness and skills by taking a prime example of my quarry. And, of course, I would never admit that sometimes it was a matter of blind, stupid luck of being in the right place at the right time. 
I have shot a lot of bucks. Some of them pretty good ones (they were in the wrong place at the wrong time).  But now I shoot spikes and does. If I saw a big buck, he would have to be an awfully biiiig sucker before I'd pop a cap on him. 
As far as the ethics of the thing goes, we have state game biologist that make big bucks trying to keep our deer herds in a healthy balance. If they say we need to kill more slicks, then I don't have a problem helping them out. 

[Mac11700]

Most of it depends on the conservation standards of where your at...but...as to Bragging about killing fawns of any kind...ABSOLUTELY NOT...I know if the state wants it done...they are trying to control the numbers...but...why give those who don't hunt the idea we are all Bambi Killers...and this is exactly what some of the behavior around here could do This is what my beef with some is about...If folks want to do it...and it's legal...fine...but this I'll post what I want when I want mentality needs to be checked at the door...The animal rights groups spread their BS to the non hunting majority in this country...and let's face it...we are the minority in this country...many folks who don't hunt are the ones who vote...and these folks are easily swayed by plastering pictures of killing fawns...It may be legal to do so...but...unethical for the sport...and for any conservation methods used by the states...to brag about it...Does it make you an accomplished hunter to take a fawn under 100 yards with a magnum rifle...I think not...Why give the anti's any additional fuel they can use...Just because...Nope...Some things are better left out of normal discussions... I M H O...BTW...I would not take a fawn personally...unless it was to put the animal out of it's misery...nor would I shoot a doe with a fawns...I'm not a substance hunter...Maybe if I was starving it would be another matter..

Mac

[Coyote Hunter]

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

The last 4 animals I’ve taken included 3 cows and a forkhorn mulie.  The last two animals my hunting buddy has taken included a cow and a doe.  I  think that explains where I stand on the matter.

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

I won’t shoot a fawn with spots but young of the year are fair game if large enough.  I have shot spikes.

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills.  Is it any less ethical to display females?

I post pictures of the females just as I do the males.  Shamelessly.

[NONYA]

How many of you check the womb of the older does to see if they had a tiny embryo in them when they were killed?Dont think about that do you?If you have a problem with shooting does/fawns,dont do it,leaves more for the rest of us that know you are still taking a deer out of the herd and age makes no difference other than the quality of the meat.We get tons of doe/fawn tags for sale in our state because there are so many of you closeminded people who only want horns and expect the same from everyone else.Killing a buck out of the herd does nothing for the long term number management,the does will get bred by another buck.If you want to keep numbers in check you have to kill does,and they provide better meat than an old buck so WHY NOT?By the time or seasons open the yearlings are just slightly smaller than the mature game,what possible difference does it make if you only kill does that are 1 year older?I am not the least bit concerned about the BAMBI crowd seeing pics of dead deer,its not going to help their agenda any more than than the idiots here arguing ethics amongst hunters,you are the weak link in the hunting world,dont try to force your personal choices upon others under the guise of "ethics".

[Coyote Hunter]

Two questions for those of you that won't shoot does, etc:

1.  Veal is meat from a calf that has been horribly mistreated for its short, miserable existence.

How many of you enjoy veal?  (I refuse to eat the stuff.)


2.  Hamburger is ground meat from cattle, sex and age unknown.

How many of you eat hamburger? (I do, for one.)

[beemanbeme]

I've gotta agree with Don. Maybe "ethics" wasn't the best word to choose. Especially since it seems to ignite Nonya so.   
I kinda fall between Mac11700 and Nonya.  I used to take pictures of what I killed but I'd kinda pose the animal. And, for God's sake, I'd tuck its tongue in its mouth. (pet peeve #1  ) But I don't see how anyone can't find the pictures of Bubba and Junior, posing with their 50 calibre and the dead deer with the beer can in the hole in it's side anything less than offensive.   
Actually, that has nothing to do with ethics, dead is dead, but it has a lot to do with good taste. 
To say I can afford to eat meat other than venison would imply that I eat venison because I am too poor to do otherwise.  That is not the case. I eat beef because I've run out of venison.  I eat deer meat because I genuinely like it.  I don't eat it to the exclusion of beef, pork, and chicken but it adds another facet to my diet and a healthy one at that.

Veal at one time, was baby beef that hadn't been weaned.  Now it merely means baby beef that is under a certain weight.  I eat it like any other protein. 

[Coyote Hunter]

...
Veal at one time, was baby beef that hadn't been weaned.  Now it merely means baby beef that is under a certain weight.  I eat it like any other protein. 
...

This is not the place for such a discussion, but your description of veal is not exactly accurate.  I suggest anyone that is interested do a google search on the subject.

[Don Fischer]

I guess I'm missing something here?

Two questions for those of you that won't shoot does, etc:

1.  Veal is meat from a calf that has been horribly mistreated for its short, miserable existence.

How many of you enjoy veal?  (I refuse to eat the stuff.)


2.  Hamburger is ground meat from cattle, sex and age unknown.

How many of you eat hamburger? (I do, for one.)

...
Veal at one time, was baby beef that hadn't been weaned.  Now it merely means baby beef that is under a certain weight.  I eat it like any other protein. 
...

This is not the place for such a discussion, but your description of veal is not exactly accurate.  I suggest anyone that is interested do a google search on the subject.

[M8ball]

My opinion:

1) Why not? Are predators in the wild that selective? I happen to hunt for meat and cow elk taste good.
2) See above. For the sake of keeping hunting acceptable to the non-hunting populace, probably not a good idea. Considering that the average hunter is not doing it for subsistance reasons, definitely not. Me personally-I couldn't do it but if I were starving that's how I would rationalize it. For the record, I've never eaten veal and don't intend to.
3) I don't see how ethics enters into it. It's a matter of personal taste. I'm sure I've killed some male flies, mice and rabbits but haven't mounted any of them, come to think of it. Killed lots of female mosquitos and left them smashed on the walls or windows for awhile before I got around to wiping them off. That count?

[beemanbeme]

Hey CH, you're the one that brought up veal.  And I don't need google to tell me what veal is.  If you don't eat it, that's your option, I couldn't care less but if you've got an axe to grind, I'm not interested. As I've said, I eat it and like. 

[roper]

I'm surprise CH would even bring up the subject of ethical etc goes to show a lack of understand how his home state figures harvest quotes and the balance of male to female ratio to maintain a healthy herd.  Hunters are part of game management by choice.

[Land_Owner]

3)  Uh, I don't know.  How would one do that?

I thought that was what the "Doorbell Mount" was for.

[Mac11700]

This subject has come up a couple times on the Medium Bore forum.  Rather than start a thread there I have created this one and will link to it from the Medium Bore forum.

Here's  some questions:

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills.  Is it any less ethical to display females?

I really didn't answer all of the questions...so I'll just do it the easy way...for normal hunting seasons unless other wise specified by the state management

1) Yes...provided they aren't with their fawns...This would also go for a sow bear with small cubs...Moose...Elk...Caribou...or any other big game with a normal hunting season...

2) Absolutely...unless abandoned or wounded

3) No...there are lots of folks who mount doe heads...Why...I dunno...personally I don't & won't...but it's their money...


Two questions for those of you that won't shoot does, etc:

1.  Veal is meat from a calf that has been horribly mistreated for its short, miserable existence.

How many of you enjoy veal?  (I refuse to eat the stuff.)


2.  Hamburger is ground meat from cattle, sex and age unknown.

How many of you eat hamburger? (I do, for one.)

I will shoot does...and have in the past...I just don't shoot fawns...but I will answer your last 2 questions any ways

1)...I don't eat veal...never have...never will...nor do I eat monkey brains..cockroaches..worms..grubs...or a whole lot of other things knowingly

2) Yes I eat hamburger...and FWIW....not all hamburger is from unknown ages of cattle...most depends on where & what type or grade you purchase..and where you purchase it at...

Mac

[Coyote Hunter]

I'm surprise CH would even bring up the subject of ethical etc goes to show a lack of understand how his home state figures harvest quotes and the balance of male to female ratio to maintain a healthy herd.  Hunters are part of game management by choice.

I brought it up because the subject came up, with specific reference to does and fawns, on another board that I moderate.  Rather than discuss it there I opened a thread on this board, which I deemed to be a more appropriate venue.

That I would bring it up here does not show anything regarding my understanding, or lack thereof, of Colorado's game management methods.   As noted above in one of my posts, I hunt both sexes and feel no shame in doing so.

[Coyote Hunter]

...

2) Yes I eat hamburger...and FWIW....not all hamburger is from unknown ages of cattle...most depends on where & what type or grade you purchase..and where you purchase it at...

Mac

And of course you get a "Certificate of Animal Age and Sex" with your hamburger purchases, especially at restaurants?  Most ranchers and farmers won't sell a calf because its more profitable to sell them when they have more weight on them.  Nevertheless, what happens to the burger meat from veal calves?  It does not go to waste.  The point is the vast majority of the time people really don't know what is in their hamburger.  And few give it a second thought - including most of the "I won't shoot a doe" types.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

The word ethical implies that these questions have a moral nature to them, as in there are eternal consequences...

I can't imagine anyone burning in hell for shooting an antlerless deer of any kind.  I CAN imagine someone burning in hell for failing to conserve a resource so that future generations can enjoy it.  It may be difficult to imagine anyone burning for deer which are so plentiful today, but think perhaps of someone who knowingly took part in the extinction of the passenger pigeon.  For as popular as dove hunting is, imagine what a sport passenger pigeons would have been!

As for the noteworthiness of shooting a doe...  I've shot does and even fawns that I'm more proud of than bucks that I've shot.  Large antlers seem to be more of a sign of somebody's money earning abilities than a symbol of their abilities in woodcraft. 

1,000 acre hunting lease, Custom rifle, premium ammo, heated elevated blind, 6 months of baiting, mineral supplements to enhance antler growth, Guide services, HumVee to get you from Resort condominium to parking lot, ATV to get you from parking lot to stand...  Pass up big bucks all season waiting for the biggest one.  Finally settle on a lesser buck that still makes B&C by several points. 

Mighty hunter?  Or Oil Tycoon?

Trophies have been nothing new.  Just after the beaver pelt market crashed, the mountain men would guide wealthy European princes on hunts in the American West.  The princes traveled with an entourage of servants that catered to their every need.  Sure they shot some big trophies, but the guy who really deserved the credit was the guys leading the expedition guys like Jim Bridger, Kit Carson. 

That said, there can be something to a big set of antlers.  If done fair-and-square it means passing up shots on smaller bucks - which can be a real test of the will.  And big bucks are never 1 1/2 yr-olds so they are much wiser especially in areas with heavy pressure.

[I edited my post to emphasize noteworthiness of shooting does.  I want readers to understand that I draw a huge distinction between noteworthy and ethical.]

[Mac11700]

...

2) Yes I eat hamburger...and FWIW....not all hamburger is from unknown ages of cattle...most depends on where & what type or grade you purchase..and where you purchase it at...

Mac

And of course you get a "Certificate of Animal Age" with your hamburger purchases, especially at restaurants?  Most ranchers and farmers won't sell a calf because its more profitable to sell them when they have more weight on them.  Nevertheless, what happens to the burger meat from veal calves?  It does not go to waste.  The point is the vast majority of the time people really don't know what is in their hamburger.  And few give it a second thought.

What's with this type of response from you... You never stated any specifics ..Read what I said... NOT all Hamburger...do you understand...Of course a lot of it is exactly as you described...But..there are many small butcher shops and a few of the larger local chains grocery stores that make their own Coyote Hunter from various cuts of meat in their stores...Are you trying to tell me you don't know the difference...between ground chuck & ground sirloin...? I'm sorry your not aware of this fact...but I don't have to get a certificate when I know the butchers personally...or from a store I have & done business with for most of my life...to know what is used in my food I buy to prepare myself...Buying out at restaurants or McDonald's you could be getting anything...I know...

Mac

[flintlock]

I've killed 7 does and one buck this year...Guess I don't have a problem...

[roper]

[
That I would bring it up here does not show anything regarding my understanding, or lack thereof, of Colorado's game management methods.   As noted above in one of my posts, I hunt both sexes and feel no shame in doing so.

Colorado sells either sex tags and allows separate bull/cow tag also for same season/separate most guys I know here consider the cow tag "meat tag".   I would assume you had unfilled tags and how many bull tags did you have other than late or draw cow tags.   It the same you can get buck/doe tag for deer/antelope.   Since our tag system allow up to 4 choices per application person may not draw 1st or even 2nd choice hunts so alot can get lost when talking about what is harvest.  Myself I had a either sex elk  and cow tag plus buck tag and have plains either sex elk tag which is an unlimited tag good till Jan 31,08 in the southeast units.

Most hunter I know including myself with an either sex elk tag  (West of I-25) will hunt for bulls first then maybe last few days of hunt if haven't got a bull will take a cow.

[elmer]

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills.  Is it any less ethical to display females?

1. Yes!

2. Yes,  unless they are wounded or at times where an abundance creates a situation where they won't make it through the winter (I will have to leave it to the state biologists to make that determination).

3. No.

I know the PETA party line about veal, but it is not a universal truth. At least PETA understands that veal is simply a byproduct of dairy. So if you drink milk, eat cheese, etc you might as well eat the veal. Otherwise it is as bad as those that eat meat, but condemn the butcher. Where I grew up our veal were just young calves that spent their short life with their mothers. Again they were a byproduct of our milk cows.

PETA has lost a number of supporters over their lies and distortions when they visited me in Texas and saw free range cow and calves that weren't suppose to exist. At least one has gone from card carrying member to hunter after learning the truth about game management.

[NONYA]

How do you come to the determination that a yearling is off limits but a 1 1/2 year old is good to go?You and your Bambi complex need to take a look at nature,if you are worried about keeping the breeders breeding you take yearlings so the older does will carry those fawns they have already started to grow through till spring and provide a whole new crop of yearlings.Any cow elk or doe antelope you shoot during the rifle season should be carrying a calf,id rather shoot a yearling than kill two elk by shooting a mature cow,same goes for the WT and the late season muley does,shoot a doe and you probably killed a fawn as well,but that is somehow ethicaly better than shooting a yearling?I think not.

[IOWA DON]

In Iowa one can only shoot one buck per year with a firearm (shotgun or muzzle loader). However, one may purchase many antlerless permits, and one can also hunt them with rifles during a January season. I think most deer hunters here only shoot bucks, and would rather shoot a small buck than a doe. I pass up small bucks figuring if they live another couple years they will be nice trophies, probably not for me but for someone. I have never had meat from a buck that I thought tasted very good, but have never had bad meat from a doe and I've shot lots of them. I am glad that most hunters don't want to shoot does. That probably insures that our current deer overpopulation problem will continue so I will be able to continue getting lots of doe permits. When one sees a big old 10-point buck he knows that deer has been around a while and is a good trophy as it is a mature animal. When I see a doe I can't tell if it is a young or old animal so that dimension in hunting is not there. However, I have seen does act pretty smart so I guess they were old, wise animals, a better trophy than a young buck to me. As far as shooting the young of the year, I think that is ethical but I prefer not to. I think one can probably shoot more fawns than adult does with less impact on the herd. The old does help the herd survive while the young ones don't and will take a little extra time to reproduce. I also suspect the young of the year are less likely to survive their first winter since they are less experienced. I prefer not to shoot fawns because their back straps are so small they don't make very good steaks and because it is difficult for me to make good jerky from their smaller muscles. If I had a large trophy room I might consider a mount of a doe as they are very sleek beautiful animals, but with limited wall space only display a few male trophies.

[Coyote Hunter]

roper –

I’ve been buying big game licenses in Colorado for 25 years and have seen a lot of changes in that time.  This year I had two cow tags (Snake River Ranch), one over-the-counter bull tag (good most places) and one buck tag (Unit 4).  Except for the OTC bull tag, all tags were obtained through the standard application lottery.  Well, that’s not exactly true.  My first Snake River cow tag was through the lottery but a few days later I received a letter from the DOW saying that elk populations were over target on some of the Ranching For Wildlife ranches and that successful applicants for these ranches would find a voucher in the letter packet entitling them to a second cow tag.

My hunting buddy had one cow tag and one doe tag, both for Unit 4. 

Due to the  season dates, we hunted my cows on Snake River Ranch first, although we spent the evenings and a couple afternoons in Unit 4.  I filled both cow tags and the buck tag, my buddy filled his doe tag.

As to considering a cow tag to be a “meat tag”,  I have enough antlers in the barn that I don’t need to hunt for them.   A freezer full of meat works for me.  This year I had to by a larger freezer and still gave a lot of meat away.  Some went to friends and family but most went  to Denver Rescue Mission, as has a fair amount of game meat in the past.

[Coyote Hunter]

Mac –

Of course I understand that not all hamburger is “from unknown ages of cattle”.  But that would be the exception rather than the rule.  I also understand that most people don’t know the butchers personally and in fact purchase hamburger from multiple sources.  And that hamburger purchased at the grocery store may and often does contain meat from a number of animals – age and sex unkown. 

And yes, I understand the difference “between ground chuck & ground sirloin” and am also aware that such cuts do not indicate either sex or age.

As I pointed out above, calves are generally not butchered because it is generally more profitable to do so when they are older and larger, which means you won’t ***generally*** have calf meat in your burger.

What I was attempting to point out was the hypocrisy of those in the “I won’t shoot a doe/fawn” camp who have no problem eating veal in particular or in general, beef from animals whose sex and age are unknown.  It’s kind of like non-hunters eating meat or vegetarians wearing leather shoes.  Apparently some folks understood, others don’t.

[beemanbeme]

Well I didn't understand it. On the one hand I say I have no problems shooting/eating a doe and then next thing I know it sounds like I should be hitting my finger with a hammer because I eat veal.     I think Nonya came about as close to the truth as anyone.