Shooting does

[Coyote Hunter]

Well I didn't understand it. On the one hand I say I have no problems shooting/eating a doe and then next thing I know it sounds like I should be hitting my finger with a hammer because I eat veal.     I think Nonya came about as close to the truth as anyone.

Then you're not in the “I won’t shoot a doe/fawn” camp.

Please understand I'm not being critical of folks that eat veal, even though I choose not to.  I eat a lot of chicken and God only knows how many are raised in cages with their beaks cut off and only butchered when they are too old to lay eggs.  Hypocritical given the reasons I don't eat veal?  Yup. 

[Mac11700]

Mac –

Of course I understand that not all hamburger is “from unknown ages of cattle”.  But that would be the exception rather than the rule.  I also understand that most people don’t know the butchers personally and in fact purchase hamburger from multiple sources.  And that hamburger purchased at the grocery store may and often does contain meat from a number of animals – age and sex unkown. 

And yes, I understand the difference “between ground chuck & ground sirloin” and am also aware that such cuts do not indicate either sex or age.

As I pointed out above, calves are generally not butchered because it is generally more profitable to do so when they are older and larger, which means you won’t ***generally*** have calf meat in your burger.

What I was attempting to point out was the hypocrisy of those in the “I won’t shoot a doe/fawn” camp who have no problem eating veal in particular or in general, beef from animals whose sex and age are unknown.  It’s kind of like non-hunters eating meat or vegetarians wearing leather shoes.  Apparently some folks understood, others don’t.

I kinda figured that was what you were driving at..JSYK..there is a growing trend in this country to be more informed about what we are eating...more & more folks are demanding better quality products...free from chemicals...additives...and other unhealthy things...It would turn folks stomachs if they even got close to a slaughter house...and worse yet if they went in..I try to make sure I am getting my meat & are poultry from local sources...same as my dairy products...The less chemicals my family ingest...hopefully will pay off down the road for them...with longer healthier lives...

I do question 1 thing here though...How is it hypocritical if a person likes to eat something...but just doesn't want any part of killing it? Since the inception of the market place...this person to me is just being a consumer...If a product is sold legally for consumption in the market...does one have to be able to kill it themselves to NOT be hypocritical? I don't look at this in this kind of way...My wife likes fish...but absolutely hates to go fishing ...I don't see her as being so...She also likes venison...but hates the idea of killing a deer herself...and chooses not to...and has told me she would never eat it again if I stopped bring them home...Are you implying she is being hypocritical...? I don't believe she is...as with anyone else...I hate milking cows...but love most dairy products...A person has to choose to hunt...a person has to choose to pull the trigger...a person has to consciously choose to end the life of the animal...Some have been taught not to kill fawns just as I was...Some have no qualms about taking as many as they can...Different parts of the country...Different upbringing...Different laws and game management procedures.....Different views on those procedures and practices...

Now a days...we all have to worry about those non-hunting voters...and not act like a bunch gun toting morons in their eyes...This may be hard for some to fathom...but...many non hunters don't want to know why we do what we do...and they sure as hell don't want to see the results of what we do...(graphic pictures of game killed..animals being hauled down the road tied to the hood of a car)I also feel the plastering pictures of fawn kills will diminish the legal hunting of all game...fawns included...and since the taking of them is used as a management tool...will curtail this practice as well...I know a few here have & will disagree with this and they have and will state they don't care what other people think...and that's the problem...that they don't give a damn ...what anyone else thinks...or who they upset along the way...IMHO....It's time they learned they better start caring...and realize that hunters and gun owners are the minority in this country...If they don't start taking into account these folks feelings... we will wind up with more & more stupid restrictive laws...This is a fact...Sometimes we just should go about our business and leave well enough alone...When the public opinion against us...it is usually some type of knee jerk reaction to what these non-hunting voters have seen & heard...from our liberal media..or off the internet...and we all know how the media portrays hunters...don't we...

Mac 

[Coyote Hunter]

...more & more folks are demanding better quality products...free from chemicals...additives...and other unhealthy things...
 

You mean like chemical-free veal from open range animals – like fawns or young of year?

I do question 1 thing here though...How is it hypocritical if a person likes to eat something...but just doesn't want any part of killing it?

That’s not necessarily hypocritical in my opinion.  A hypocrite would be a person that eats the flesh but is against the killing the animal to begin with – no matter who does it.

Now a days...we all have to worry about those non-hunting voters...and not act like a bunch gun toting morons in their eyes...

Sorry, no matter what we do we ARE gun toting morons in the eyes of many – no matter how respectfully we treat the game before or after its on the ground. 

Put me in the camp that thinks that if we have to hide what we do we have already lost. 

That does not mean we should be disrespectful of the game.  Sharing graphic pictures often serves a useful purpose, just as does testing pharmaceuticals on animals.  I don’t like to see animals tied to the tops of vehicles but at the same time I’m glad to see people out hunting and if that is the only practical method of transport available I’m not going to tell them they can’t do it.

[Mac11700]

You mean like chemical-free veal from open range animals – like fawns or young of year?

No damm it...and I never said that...nor did I even come close to implying it...I've made my position on this perfectly clear already...Why are you even asking?

Sorry, no matter what we do we ARE gun toting morons in the eyes of many – no matter how respectfully we treat the game before or after its on the ground.

Put me in the camp that thinks that if we have to hide what we do we have already lost.

That does not mean we should be disrespectful of the game.  Sharing graphic pictures often serves a useful purpose, just as does testing pharmaceuticals on animals.  I don’t like to see animals tied to the tops of vehicles but at the same time I’m glad to see people out hunting and if that is the only practical method of transport available I’m not going to tell them they can’t do it.

There is appropriate behavior...and then there isn't...At least cover the animal up..I know we appear as  morons in the eyes of many...and yes...we have already lost...THAT"S MY POINT...We are the minority..and if many continue as they are...it is only going to get worse....Instead of fighting each other...we aught to be fighting those who are against hunting ...

There is an old saying...People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...I'll expand on this...To the people who live in those glass houses...who say...It's my damn house...and I'll throw as many stones as I want...Don't bitch when your house falls down...you have no body to blame but yourself...

Mac

[NONYA]

You are in a glass house Mac and chastising fellow hunters because they choose to kill does/fawns just because you dont is cutting your own throat.YOU are the one dividing the hunters in this thread,YOU!

[SHOOTALL]

wild !
ethics-theory or system of moral values , the principals of conduct governing an individual or a group of professionals .
conforming to professional standards and expressing moral approval or disapproval . according to Webster !
so if the game dept says its ok then its ok ! they are the pros , right ? then what about Native Americans that have different laws ? hum !
display a doe if you want , why not i know a guy who has a whole doe mounted and in an entry to his home ,
if management is the goal then any deer should be ok ,yearling or old master !
if we take deer under strict management then we are ethical , other for survival any other way would not be ethical ! since we have chosen to live under laws !
so in the finial analysis it depends on where you are hunting as to what you should do ! and for some people that is just plain to do !

[SHOOTALL]

plain hard to do !

[Mac11700]

You are in a glass house Mac and chastising fellow hunters because they choose to kill does/fawns just because you dont is cutting your own throat.YOU are the one dividing the hunters in this thread,YOU!

No Nonya...not really...I have a right to my beliefs...just as you do...and showing appropriate behavior when out in public is how I was brought up...I'm not asking for any law to be written to force someone to act as I do...but only telling folks to understand the consequences if they don't..I'll say it to you again...so perhaps you'll understand it this time...I'm not in your shoes...Your perspective is different than mine...Where you live and hunt..killing does that have fawns with them may be an accepted way of life...It's not here...I have no problem taking a doe...nor do I have a problem with some one else doing the same...I made it clear how & why I would take a fawn...http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,131767.msg1098492678.html#msg1098492678..Try to understand something...If I spent a great deal of money coming to your state to hunt...I wouldn't...even though I can...buy a fawn tag for the purpose of just killing one...I won't purposely set out to hunt one...it's not worth it to me to do so...in any way...I would rather come home empty handed with out firing a shot...as to taking a fawn...A single doe...without a fawn in tow...I would try to take...This is me...understand...ME...From what you said earlier...I know you are trying to help with game management in your state...I choose not to participate...and will leave that to you...My reasoning towards you for your taking a fawn had/has nothing to do about the legality of the fact...but was about an entirely different subject...The manner in which you portrayed it..and the other things you said about that other topic... is what brought the majority of the response from me...and why I said what I did to you...If you misunderstood that...I apologize...

Mac

[SHOOTALL]

The Bible says not to kill a mother with young , but also in biblical times they killed and ate the lamb , making one think it better to kill the fawn than the doe .

[Mac11700]

The Bible says not to kill a mother with young , but also in biblical times they killed and ate the lamb , making one think it better to kill the fawn than the doe .

I think they just sacrificed the yew...not ate it..

Mac

[billy_56081]

1: YES

2: YES

3: YES

They are all made of meat.

[SHOOTALL]

often the killed the fatted lamb for a dinner when a special guest came

[Don Fischer]

I can't believe this discussion has stayed as relatively civil as it has. Guess I'll answer the questions.

1. yes

2. yes

3. no

On the issue of taking fawns, I can't imagine why. Why not just kill off another older animal. The older animal will render more meat if that's what your after and it will consume more foliage than the fawn. This is about controlling the herd I think but the size of the herd can be controlled by shooting off an adult animal just as easy as a fawn. I'm not sure I understand why anyone or game dept would do that other than if the fawn was badly injured. If you had a herd of cows and had to kill one off to control the size of the herd, would you kill an old cow or a replacement hefier? Another thought. What are you going to do with a fawn after you shoot it? Make a sandwitch?

Leaving controlling the herd behind, I'm with Mac. I think our image should be guarded and the anti's don't see us killing to control the herd. They don't even see us killing fawn's. What they see is us killing babies.

[SHOOTALL]

well when you couple young hunters with hunting deer with dogs and a young a deer is being pushed hard thru. tight cover a small doe and a mature doe look alot alike with seconds to shoot it happens ! most hunters young in particular go out with the intention to kill a record but settle for less as time runs out !
now image - we can educate the non hunter today as to why heard control is necessary or explain later why we hid something ! I'm for giving it to um straight not kissing their azz to shut um up !
but that's just me !

[Mac11700]

well when you couple young hunters with hunting deer with dogs and a young a deer is being pushed hard thru. tight cover a small doe and a mature doe look alot alike with seconds to shoot it happens ! most hunters young in particular go out with the intention to kill a record but settle for less as time runs out !
now image - we can educate the non hunter today as to why heard control is necessary or explain later why we hid something ! I'm for giving it to um straight not kissing their azz to shut um up !
but that's just me !

Your right about this situation...and hunting with dogs may be legal for you..but not here... I hope...in your cases like yours...that the young hunter has been taught  NOT to pull the trigger if he was unsure of what it was and where every body is around him... I have always been taught that...Split seconds scenario's are hard to deal with with anyone hunting...Couple that with restrictive game laws on deer as to what is legal to shoot along with antler restrictions.. makes it even more difficult...4sure...I teach my sons & daughter to verify first what it is...not guess...and shoot...Here...no doing so... can lead to trouble if they are wrong.....

Mac

[NONYA]

Im not about to hide my kills from anyone,does,fawns bucks cows,bulls they are out in the open for all to see,dont give a damn if I step on someones antihunting feelbads.Just butchered another yearling yesterdaty,got two big roasts,2 loins and about 15lb of burger meat.You guys dont have to shoot them but you better think before you start belittling those who do,YOU are the dividing force in hunting today.

[beemanbeme]

Uuuhhhh, to begin with, some of the folks are using the term "fawn" like we're shooting some cute little bambi, covered with spots, gamboling about its mommy.  Around here, the "fawns" are almost as big as their "mommy" and most of them have been bred.  Often the does will stay in family units where you have two or three or more years worth of does, mothers and daughters.
Now then, Let's say you are not opposed to killing a doe.  And you see three does walk into a clearing. All of a size.  Do you shoot one?  How do you know that they aren't triplets and the mothers already been killed?  Or early twins that are as big as their mother? 
By the same token, I seen some 2x2s and some spindly 3x3s that I know were that year's offsprings. What about them?  Are they bucks?  Or are they fawns? 

[SHOOTALL]

IF the young hunter is legal and safe why should he not shoot , where we hunt deer are border line nuisance spices !
they destroy millions of dollars in crops and yards !
we have many non hunters move into the area with a non hunting background , after a few years they almost always contact a hunter for help ! can't stand to plant and watch the deer eat them out of house and home !
and don't confuse not being able to judge age of a running deer with safety to make your point as they are not the same !
and nonya good point if we act like we can't be proud of what we do why should anyone else give a d#@*&

[Coyote Hunter]

You mean like chemical-free veal from open range animals – like fawns or young of year?

No damm it...and I never said that...nor did I even come close to implying it...I've made my position on this perfectly clear already...Why are you even asking?

No, you did not say it – I am.  If I’m going to eat veal it will be from an open range fawn or young of year animal that I shoot, not from some animal that may have been raised in a veal pen so tiny it can barely move, fed a diet of milk giving it acute diarrhea, living in its own waste, and is often both anemic and highly medicated.

There is appropriate behavior...and then there isn't...At least cover the animal up..

Covering it up may not be the best idea as it may cause temperatures to rise, ruining the meat.

I know we appear as  morons in the eyes of many...and yes...we have already lost...THAT"S MY POINT...We are the minority..and if many continue as they are...it is only going to get worse....Instead of fighting each other...we aught to be fighting those who are against hunting ...

There is an old saying...People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...I'll expand on this...To the people who live in those glass houses...who say...It's my damn house...and I'll throw as many stones as I want...Don't bitch when your house falls down...you have no body to blame but yourself...

Mac

I’m not the one throwing stones – I’m saying let people choose their own path.  You’re the one complaining and saying people are doing wrong because its not your way…

[NONYA]

Yes,our fall fawns are almost adult in size,and twice as tender.I like to leave those big headed old does in the mix,they will carry brand spanking new fawns through the winter and know where to spend the winter if it gets rough.If you are going to single out hunters and treat them subpar simply because they shoot yearlings and you choose not to dont be surprised when a group of you "hunters" gets together and makes sure you dont get a chance to shoot anything but what they see fit.I dont eat veal because i think it tastes like crap,if it tasted like antelope/md/wt fawn Id order it evey time I saw it on the menu.

[billy_56081]

OOPS! I misread the third Question.

3: NO

Nonya no wonder its so cold here, you and I actually agree on something!

[Davemuzz]

1. Is it ethical to shoot females (does and cows, etc.)?

Sure, I can't remember the last time I made "Antler soup".

2. Should young of the year (fawns) be off limits?

By the time hunting season rolls around, you must be speaking of "first year" deer, ect. I can't see why they would be off limits. If you have a tag, shoot 'em now or shoot 'em next year. I don't really see a difference.

3. Lots of folks proudly display their male (antlered) kills.  Is it any less ethical to display females?

Heck, I don't spend the money to display a good buck rack. I'd rather spend the dollars on a gun. I say to each his own. If you want to mount a rabbit....knock yourself out.

MHO

Dave

[Mac11700]

You mean like chemical-free veal from open range animals – like fawns or young of year?

No damm it...and I never said that...nor did I even come close to implying it...I've made my position on this perfectly clear already...Why are you even asking?

No, you did not say it – I am.  If I’m going to eat veal it will be from an open range fawn or young of year animal that I shoot, not from some animal that may have been raised in a veal pen so tiny it can barely move, fed a diet of milk giving it acute diarrhea, living in its own waste, and is often both anemic and highly medicated.

Then why ask me if what I meant in the first place...If you want to make a statement...do it at your expense...not mine.

There is appropriate behavior...and then there isn't...At least cover the animal up..

Covering it up may not be the best idea as it may cause temperatures to rise, ruining the meat.

True...provided it isn't iced down inside the body cavity...if the temperature is high..Wind blowing thru a gutted animal on the hood of a vehicle will ruin the meat as well...not to mention all of the other things that come off various kinds of roads...

I know we appear as  morons in the eyes of many...and yes...we have already lost...THAT"S MY POINT...We are the minority..and if many continue as they are...it is only going to get worse....Instead of fighting each other...we aught to be fighting those who are against hunting ...

There is an old saying...People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...I'll expand on this...To the people who live in those glass houses...who say...It's my damn house...and I'll throw as many stones as I want...Don't bitch when your house falls down...you have no body to blame but yourself...

Mac

I’m not the one throwing stones – I’m saying let people choose their own path.  You’re the one complaining and saying people are doing wrong because its not your way…

You totally missed my meaning on this...the saying is a metaphor( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor)...the meaning on my expanding an old phrase...means for the folks who do & say as they please with out regard to what other people feel...don't bitch  when they no longer get to hunt as they want...they will have only themselves to blame......

Yes...I am complaining about how people act in public...but...I'm entitled to...just as those who disagree with me are......Why in the hell start this thread in the first place if you don't like folks disagreeing with you...Why ask for opinions in the first place...


I think this has strayed well away from what I thought the true intent of the questions as asked about does & fawns was..

Mac

[Don Fischer]

I'm starting to wonder myself just why this thred was started in the first place. The outcome was predictable. The question was about ethics and soon as one guy has a problem with it he starts getting bashed. Doesn't sound to me like you really wanted to know how people felt CH.

[SHOOTALL]

where i live the fawns come over a period of time , we experience a late or second rut which means often a doe may still be nursing a fawn as late as gun season , to shoot the doe may kill the fawn . this is a fact we live with some can take it in stride others have a hard time dealing with it ! i know because i saw a doe and waited to see if a fawn was with her , after a reasonable time i harvested the doe . as i walked to tag her a fawn ran out . at that time we could only shoot one deer per day . after inspection i knew the doe was still nursing the fawn . i would have liked to not have had to deal with this , but as a hunter it is part of the hunt . its not an issue that can be regulated by law or ethics . We have problems with over population of deer so the effect to the herd some would see as good , others would see the probable death of the fawn as a major mistake . i felt that i had experienced one of the negative aspects of hunting , one of the outcomes we would really like to avoid but sometimes cannot ! i was legal in every way ( which if i could have harvested the fawn would have been better ) was i moral i believe so as i had no intent of shooting a doe with fawn ( read my earlier post with ref. to BIBLE ) . i spent alot of time thinking over what happened and came to this - the doe with fawn in tow was slipping out of the hunting area as the dogs were on another deer - the doe and i most likely spotted each other at the same time - she froze and the fawn did also - she moved about 10 yards but the fawn still out of sight did not move , i made the shot and a short time later the fawn was discovered . i still shoot does as we still have over population of deer , but now i tend to wait until later in the season . do i loose sleep not at all . could it happen again maybe but i hope not . did it spoil hunting for me not at all .

[Mac11700]

In many counties that have the buck to doe ratio way off...here in Missouri..the make as many doe tags available as a person could want..Those counties that have been under this rule deer are getting scarce on public lands...and finding normal 2yr-3yr old bucks is getting harder & harder...with hunting pressure is increasing...The state game biologist I have spoken with about it has said to me...that many young bucks are being taken when they think they are shooting does...As a result...doe tags in some of those counties are being reduced...and antler restrictions put in place..to make the quality of the hunt better... It's just very weird swings in the deer herd populations for most of us hunters here..The state used to put out a lot of different food plots for them...they have cut back on that...and have just started planting fescue grasses  in the clearings...so a-lot of the deer head into suburbia and concentrate on crop fields...I wonder why...

Mac

[Graybeard]

While it seems to me it should be obvious to adults I guess in today's world NOTHING is obvious to anyone so let me state it rather simply.... Folks there is no "one size fits all" no one right answer to all questions response to the question asked.

Whether it's OK to shoot does or fawns or for that matter any size, age, sex of critter is dependent on the conditions and situation at any given one spot you might chose to discuss. Just cuz it's OK one place doesn't mean it's OK or vice versa in all places.

From what I've read some places in Canada when you get your moose tag it might allow the shooting of ONLY calves and not adults of any size. At least that's what I've gathered from the comments of some of our Canadian members in their reports of their moose hunts. In most states with good populations of pronghorn antelope permits for does/fawns are issued over the counter fairly freely.

If it were not considered not only OK but needed to shoot them then the game management folks would not be issuing those tags. There it's OK to shoot them. It's actually MORE than OK it's the right thing to do.

Here in Bama the rule is no "spotted fawns" but once the spots are gone fawns are fair game. I seem to recall having shot several such over the years I've been deer hunting some intentionally and some cuz I just didn't realize that I wasn't shooting a full grown doe at the time as my perspective didn't allow me to properly judge the size of the critter. I just saw no antlers and "assumed" it a doe and it turned out to be a fawn not a grown doe.

I hate discussions of ethics. It seems most folks want "their personal ethics" to apply to the rest of the world. Folks that's not gonna happen. Ethics are a personal thing and they apply ONLY to YOU and not to anyone else. For all others their ethics NOT YOUR ETHICS apply. You cannot foist your ethics on anyone but yourself. If you have a student to teach you can try to instill YOUR ETHICS in them but if they don't take in that student TOUGH as only their ethics apply to them not yours. So there are not right or wrong answers to the question "is this ethical". If it is to the person responding then so be it it's ethical for them even if not for you.

Now we do have such things as LAWS. Those are at least in theory binding on us all but again what's legal one place might not be in another. Then too clearly we do not all agree with all laws. In those cases when you do not agree with the law or where it conflicts with your personal ethics you must decide whether you wish to break that law and become an outlaw. All I can say to you is "to thay own self be true". Do what you think right always and if that's against the law then take responsibility for your own actions if/when you get caught breaking the law.

On the subject of display we have different scenarios of display. The first one is of course the public display of game on the way home or to a processor with it. In some cases this is controlled or defined by law and in others it is not. Some want to proudly display their kill for all the world to see as it was a proud achievement on their part to take that game and they want all to know how great and wonderful a hunter they were to take their game. That's fine with me but not so with all who might see it.

The other is the display once home that is the hanging of the mounted head or whatever form of mount one wishes in their own home. I just cannot see how this can ever be wrong as it's YOUR HOME and your wishes and desires apply and as far as I know there are no laws anywhere controling that.

But the public display is quite another thing. Like it or not hunting is NOT a right it's a priviledge granted us by the majority. So long as the majority support hunting it can continue but as soon as the majority oppose it then hunting will end. It's that simple. So doing things that anger the non hunter who supports hunting is not a real smart thing to do. Sure it might be legal to do so but it's still nto real smart as each non hunter but NOT anti hunter you anger is one less supporter you have for your PRIVILEDGE to continue to hunt. Still it's up to each of us to decide where we personally are gonna stand on that situation. Do you really care who you anger? Do you really care if your actions aid the antis in removing our prviledge to continue to hunt? Your public actions do have an impact on that matter whether you like it or not and whether you agree it should or not.

Now as to displaying your photos here (which in effect is public) or not I say go for it. This is a shooting, hunting, fishing, trapping friendly site. To me it's kinda like your home and folks who are not pro hunting shouldn't be here in the first place just like they shouldn't be in your home so to me the HOME rule not the PUBLIC rule should apply. And that friends is the OFFICIAL RULE at GBO. Having said that I will add that even I do not care to see overly graphic displays of gore whether in the photos of dead critters or on TV or in the movies. I turn my head or avert my eyes for such both here and in the movies or on TV. I don't enjoy it so I don't participate in it. Why can't others just turn their heads if they don't like it then don't look at it.

Has common sense as well as decency become extinct in today's society?

[flintlock]

Something else I have noticed...Seems everyone wants to kill a big buck...Most folks don't own the land they hunt and say they are hunting big bucks only...Part of a good management plan is also harvesting does...How many, depends on the land and deer population...

I'm lucky in that I hunt farms that my family owns...The land is planted in peanuts, soybeans, corn and wheat...So basically we are hunting large food plots...We have a target number of deer to remove each year...If we don't remove 40-50 each year we have excessive crop damage and the farmer has the right to remove these deer during the summer and even use a spotlight but he can not remove these deer so they are wasted....We give them the numbers removed from each farm each year...Since starting this 15 years or so ago, he has not killed any during the growing season...

A bonus to us as hunters, since we have started this, we have larger bucks, better antlers and see more bucks chasing during the rut...The herd is healthier...I won't apologize to anyone for taking does, they are all eaten, the excess that my family and friends don't need are donated to needy families in the area...

The deer herd in NC is very healthy, last year there were 15,000 reported deer killed on the highways...To help this situation the state has issued unlimited anterless buck tags this year...

If your state has an abundance of deer there is simply no reason not to take and eat as many as you can do so legally and utilize...

[Mac11700]

Has common sense as well as decency become extinct in today's society?

I have wondered the same thing Bill...and it is apparent to some here it is...These folks refuse to see the reality of their actions...and have the Damn the torpedo's...full steam ahead approach to dealing to every one...this includes those who don't oppose hunting ..but yet don't hunt themselves.....Like you said...

Your public actions do have an impact on that matter whether you like it or not and whether you agree it should or not.

..

Mac

[NONYA]

No we refuse to see the "rational" that you brow beat others with,your ethical rants are the reason this thread exists,now deal with it.