Author Topic: 260 vs 6.5x55 (Read 2614 times)

hillbill · « **on:** June 22, 2003, 02:26:11 PM »

hey guys! this might open a little discussion.was reading the post on 25-06 vs the 260 rem, to me the ballistics on the 26-06 seem to make it an obvious choice over the 260 if thats what yur lookin fer. however how bout a little debate on the 260 vs the 6.5x55. seems to me that some gunwriter who will remain unamed here just "invented" the 260 to bring the ballistics of the 6.5 back to life. a very noble mission but why invent a cartridge when there is an identical one lurkin about. the ballistic coefficient of the long 6.5 bullet will surprise you as it did me when shot at long range agin other "more powerfull" rounds. hey guys lets here what the general concensus is!!

todbartell · « **Reply #1 on:** June 22, 2003, 09:20:11 PM »

Probaby to sell more rifles! LOL

Kidding aside, the 260 Rem was brought out in '97 so there would be another option for the deer hunter. 6.5X55 is a good cartridge, but due to some older rifles, pressure (thus velocity) of factory ammo is somewhat mild (but effective), something like 2550 fps with a 140 gr. bullet. The 260, loaded to modern pressure limits (like the 270, 308, 30-06, etc), can go faster, around 2750 fps with the same 140 gr. bullet. This, and the fact you can fit the 2.8" 260 Rem into the short action Model 700 and the Model Seven. The 6.5 swede is a "tweener", 3.1", so it won't fit in a short action, and it is shorter than the 3.35" 30-06 length action. In terms of case capacity, the 6.5 swede has a slight advantage. Handloaded, they are near identical, the swede might have 50 fps on the 260 at equal pressures. They are both awesome cartridges.

hillbill · « **Reply #2 on:** June 22, 2003, 11:41:37 PM »

hey tod, i hadnt thought about the short action thing, good point. also your right about the older guns not standing up to the modern pressures. kind of makes me look at the 260 in a new light.

Zachary · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2003, 01:52:30 AM »

I have a .260 in a Remington BDL SS DM and it is an absolute joy to shoot. With certain factory ammo (I can't remember which particular one), I get groups as tight as 1/2".

BTW, another benefit of the .260 over the Swede is that there is much more availability of factory ammo in the .260.

Zachary

chk · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2003, 02:35:23 AM »

The .260 gives you 6.5x55 performance in a shorter cartridge length as already stated. The 6.5-06 gives almost 264 Win mag performance in a standard length action without the belt or larger case. Winchester never got the claimed velocity from the 264 mag even after making a bullet with a driving band to cut friction and pressure. Had the .260 been available when I bought my .243 I would have opted for the .260. I wonder if a 264 WSSM will be out soon? Dave

Rusty · « **Reply #5 on:** June 23, 2003, 03:39:00 AM »

Technically the 260 has higher velocity, a short action, and more importantly a more standardized cartidge. However in modern rifles, the 6.5 has greater cartridge capacity an therefore more potential velocity (if thats what you "need"). The Europeans load their 6.5 ammo prettydurn hot (it's probably "faster" than comprobable 260 factory loads).

Either cartidge is very good in my book.

Mikey · « **Reply #6 on:** June 23, 2003, 09:35:30 AM »

Guys: Sorry, but the 260 is marketted to be 'close enough to the 6.5 Swede'. As one of the first articles on the 260 said, this comes close enough to the 6.5 to be a hunter's dream. Why not go for the real thing?

OK, if you want to come close enough, then the 260 is as close as you're gonna get without going to the Swede. Actually, the 260 case is about the same size as the 6.5 Carcano, which was not a bad round, only shot through crummy rifles.

To me the difference is between shooting the 06 or the 308. You can probably push one to get close enough to the other so that it won't matter but what you do find in the 260 vs 6.5 Swede comparison is that the later, the Swede, will perform better with heavier bullets the same way the 06 performs better than the 308 with heavier bullets.

Most American ammo manufacturers like to load medium weight bullets in the 260 and the 120 grain 6.5 is a good example, as is the 150-165 grain 308. But, the real performance in the 6.5 or the 06 comes from the heavier loads. Most 6.5 Swede ammo carries a 140 grain bullet and it is an excellent all around cartridge. If you want to shoot long range you can go to the 155-160 grain loads and there the Swede excells. The 6.5-06 is an excellent example of the long range capabilities of the 155-160 grain 6.5mm bullet. The same goes for the 06's 190 grain bullet - it is an excellent long range performer in the 06 and excells beyond the 308.

Surely there is always something to be said for lighter weight and easier to carry rifles with sufficient power to take the game you hunt. But, I've always felt that if I can't haul the load I don't have any business being out there however, I have changed my tune just slightly over the years - now, instead of shouldering a scoped military M38 6.5 Swede, I've customized it with a lighter stock, but it's still a military rifle in civies.

Another thing I don't care for in these new lightweight sporters is that they start throwing their groups after the 2nd shot (as in rapid field fire). The manufacturers say that you don't need or shouldn't have to use any more than one shot or just one with a follow-up but hay, why lose that capability when a military Swede will shoot whatever you want to put through it all day long and keep on grouping the way you want it to.

Also, the commercially made european ammunition is made to original military specs, not the loaded down 'liability loads' the American ammo makers consider acceptable. My Swede shoot only Sellier and Bellot, unless I want to reload for it. Tain't ne'er gonna see no Remichester down the tube, nosir.

Just my 2 cents worth. Mikey.

Zachary · « **Reply #7 on:** June 23, 2003, 10:12:42 AM »

Mikey,

I have never really compared the velocities of the 6.5 in U.S. brand ammo vs European ammo. However, I do know that Hornady offers "Light Magnum" ammo in the 6.5. Is Hornady's light magnum load faster, slower, or the same as the European ammo?

Zachary

taxmiser · « **Reply #8 on:** June 23, 2003, 04:14:32 PM »

I have had extensive experience with the 6.5X55 Swede and have found it to be a great cartridge. Having shot numerous factory loadings the foreign loadings have always shown higher pressures than our factory and correspondlingly greater velocities. I went further and designed an "Improved 6.5x55" along the Ackley concept and it has made a great cartridge even better. I can get 3050fps from the 120gr without any suggestion of high pressures. If one starts the 120 .264 spire point at 3000fps and the .277 at 3100fps at 300 yards the 120gr pill is faster, flatter and has exceeded the 270 spire point in ft. pounds of energy. Faster, flatter and more power, kicks a bunch less and is much easier on barrels, doesn't get any better than that! Every 6.5X55 standard or improved I've owned and shot will easily beat that 1" mark by a considerable margin. Not so many of the .270's I've owned. After all the "swede" is THE target cartridge of Europe.
tax

jdt48653 · « **Reply #9 on:** June 23, 2003, 04:17:42 PM »

the hornady light mag jumps the 6.5x55 up to about 2,750.like the 260,
about 450 ft per sec slower then my 264 win mag with 26'' using
conley custom loads,at 3,200 with 140 gr hornadys.

jdt48653 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 23, 2003, 04:26:09 PM »

most 6.5s wont stabilize anything over 140 grs without changing the rifling!

jdt48653 · « **Reply #11 on:** June 23, 2003, 04:44:23 PM »

the 6.5/06 case is around 2.494,the 264 win mag is 2.500,and is considered one of the short magnums.cousin to the 6.5x68mm RWS beltless.

tominboise · « **Reply #12 on:** June 23, 2003, 06:04:17 PM »

My Win M70 Featherweight has a 1 in 8" twist, and seems to stabilize 160's just fine. Same with 120's and 140's.... I just wish someone would publish reloading data up to the European pressure levels.

Tom

todbartell · « **Reply #13 on:** June 23, 2003, 09:06:21 PM »

Quote from: Mikey

this comes close enough to the 6.5 to be a hunter's dream. Why not go for the real thing?

If there is a deer, antelope, sheep, or caribou on this earth that will shrug off a solid hit from a 260, but get the rug pulled out by a "Super" swede, I'd like to see it. Come on, get real, 50 fps is no big deal, in power, trajectory, or wind drift, out to 500 yards. A 120 gr. @ 2910 fps outta my 22" 260 Rem is surely as potent as a delapitated old military gun, with 160's @ 2400 fps. :)

Mikey · « **Reply #14 on:** June 24, 2003, 04:12:52 AM »

tod: it was a quote from a gunwriter, not mine. That aside, even though you correctly identified the velocity of the 160 grain Swede load to be at around 2400'/sec, it ain't the velocity friend, it's what that long pencil shaped bullter does when it hits.

As taxmiser said, the 6.5 Swede is the preferred target round of europe. In the field it gives up nothing to some of the larger bores. While the American shooters limit themselves to certain size game with a 308, the europeans have effectively used the 6.5 on everything they have. As one european fella put it when told by an American that the 6.5 wasn't heavy enough for larger game, he simply said that he had killed over 150 moose with it and he never had to use more than one shot to do it.

But, in defense of the 260, that has also been used for european moose and it works well. I do believe the 6.5 shoots the heavier bullets with a bit more accuracy and the larger case capacity has significant merit for the heavier, longer range loads.

Zach: the Hornaday Light Magnum in the 6.5 is, I think, a bit more potent than the european loads but probably by the same margin that the 6.5 has over the 260. Not a lot but it is a much better load than most of the other American ammo.

Tod: thanks for the discussion, but I'm one of those guys who prefers my delapidated old military clunkers. As I've said, it's not necessarily the velocity of a load that makes its mark, it's how well it performs on game and the 6.5 Swede's reputation is as solid as that for the 06. I do note that most new cartridges are compared most often to the good old standbys, those that have proven themselves over the years. Thanks for your thoughts. Mikey.

Lawdog · « **Reply #15 on:** June 24, 2003, 10:13:15 AM »

It seems to me that comparing the two is like comparing apples to apples. There is not enough difference between the two to matter. The only difference I've found is the availability of ammo in out of the way places. I'm not talking about small town USA Wal-Mart I'm talking about that Mom & Pop's sporting goods store in the little town of 750 people. I have found 6.5mm Swede there but not the .260 Remington. If you never go to that small town then flip a coin or go by the rifle price. Lawdog

jdt48653 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 25, 2003, 05:11:54 PM »

my cartridges of the world book shows,
for the 260 rem.
120 swift a-frame
powder-N550
46.2-grains
vol-3,061fps---energy-2497
also
156 norma oryx
powder-N550
48.0 grains
vol-2733fps---energy-2587

6.5X55
120SP
powder-h-4350
47.0 grains
vol-3,000fps---energy-2,399
also
160sp
powder-h-4831
44.0grains
vol-2,600fps---energy-2,402

todbartell · « **Reply #17 on:** June 25, 2003, 08:18:45 PM »

jdt48653,

I would take those loads with a grain of salt. A 260 Rem pretty much tops out at 2950 fps with a 120 gr. bullet. Also, a 156 gr. bullet would have a hard time topping 2600 fps, and still be at safe pressures.

Lawdog · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2003, 09:25:07 AM »

todbartell,

Also the loads for the 6.5 he listed are a mite tame. Factory loads for the Swede are most always low in pressure because of the older military rifles that are out there that people are shooting. For those of us that have new modern rifles chambered for the 6.5mm Swedish you can load them up to pressure limits of the .260 Rem. and beat it at it's own game. The Swede is a fine old cartridge that has a track record for being one of the most accurate cartridges out there. Lawdog

jdt48653 · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2003, 02:48:53 PM »

i lean to the swede,like lawdog said in the new actions you can load er up.
altho i would opt for a 26'' barrel at the least!but consider the 260 AOK.

hillbill · « **Reply #20 on:** June 26, 2003, 03:31:25 PM »

hey boys look at it this way, the 260 is apparently a great round even if it has done nothin but stir up a little controversy AND a little interest in the different excellent rounds in this caliber. if nuttin else it has brought back to light the fact you dont need a stinkin cannon to humanely kill a lil ole deer, or if you happen to be european, much larger game. i must say i dont see a lot of difference between the two rounds and if i had to limit to one rifle period, im sure either one would be an excellent choice for what i do with a rifle.

Old Griz · « **Reply #21 on:** July 08, 2003, 08:51:26 PM »

I love my old Mauser. Had my gunsmith mount a scope on it. Had to change the bolt and the safety. Might seem stupid paying just over $200 for a scope mount (no scope-just the labor and mount) on a $79 gun, but I love it when I take it to the range and it outshoots high dollar Remingtons and Winchesters all over the place. The only drawback--that sucker's heavy after a while, and I don't have an ATV. I gotta walk in.

Ballistically, the Swede and the .260 are so close it doesn't matter. The advantage of the .260 is that because it is a "new" round, gunmakers will chamber more rifles in that caliber. I know Ruger makes a bolt action in both, but I don't know of another American manufacturer that produces a Swede. I've given up on ever getting a Ruger #1 in 6.5x55, but I hope that someday before I die, Jr. makes one in .260.

hillbill · « **Reply #22 on:** July 09, 2003, 01:13:27 AM »

hey griz! just curious, why did you have to replace bolt on your mauser? my mauser had the bolt handle heated and bent down when i got it, not sure exactly how it was done but i think you can wrap the bolt in some kind of putty to keep it from getting to hot then heat the handle and bend it down a little. it looked like it was made that way when i got it, only way i could tell it had been down was they had filed a little notch in the stock to clearence the bolt when it was locked down. my smith drilled and tapped mine with redfield 1 peice mount for like 80 bucks(twice what i paid for the gun) i then filed down the safety so it would fit under the scope. it works kind of stiff though but imight be able to fix that or my smith said to get i believe a buehler 3 postion swing safety. i think brownnells has them for roun 50 bucks. anybody out there installed one of these on a 6.5 mauser? i think it will be the next step for me on this project. your right about them being a little heavy, and mine is so dang long you can hardly get it in and out of the truck cab. im thinking of shortening the barrel and maybe sporting it up a little bit. yes i know it would hurt value but i dont ever see me selling this gun anyway. better go, just wanted to keep this subject rolling!

Old Griz · « **Reply #23 on:** July 09, 2003, 06:45:50 AM »

As far as I know they might have bent the bolt handle. All I know is, instead of being straight it's curved now! They put the new safety on. and they had to do one other thing to the bolt (fill something in maybe? I don't remember). They had to cut some of the wood on the receiver and a metal band for the front of the mount to fit. I'm sure most of the cost was labor.

Mikey · « **Reply #24 on:** July 09, 2003, 09:29:11 AM »

hillbill: if you go for a Bold Trigger for that Swede you can get one with an integral safety, and then just install a safety block in place of the bolt safety. I did that with mine and the trigger is really sweet.

With the bolts, they are usually cut and welded back on but at a different angle so they clear the scope. You can always get a different bolt handle from Brownells, one that would be welded back on at almost a 90 degree angle from where the original was - this would give you much more clearance at the scope.

If you are shooting/carrying a M96 with a 29 inch barrel you can easily ahve it cut and crowned to 23 inches, as they did with the M38 versions - thatt makes it quite a bit lighter. Also, you can restock it. I believe you can use a stock for a Mauser Model 48/48A that has a slightly shorter action than the 98s. They should be availalbe in the Shotgun News.

I have read about cutting and rewelding your own bolt but I would rather have a professional gunsmith do it. I once saw an 03A3 bolt handle break off after a home gunsmithing job cecause the guy wanted to save the $50 the gunny would have charged him. It cost him twice that later on.

Hope this helps guys. Mikey.

hillbill · « **Reply #25 on:** July 09, 2003, 12:05:46 PM »

hey mikey! thanks for the info. am not familiar with the bold trigger. where can i look at or purchase one? is it a job for a smith or can one do it their selves? how does that intergal safety work? does it mount on the back of the bolt or somewhere else?

Mikey · « **Reply #26 on:** July 10, 2003, 04:05:45 AM »

hillbill: I'm sure Bold Triggers have a website. I also believe you can find them in the Brownell's catalog. The safety is integral to the trigger mechanism and probably acts as a trigger block. On mine, the safety lever is on the right side and is a forward-backward on/off set-up. The Bold triggers also have adjustments for overtravel and let-off.

On the bolt, once you have installed the new trigger, you remove the safety lever from the bolt and replace it with a 'bolt block', which is just a machined peice of metal that replaces the safety lever assembly. You should be able to install both the new trigger and the bolt block yourself.

If you don't want to mess with the bolt mounted safety, and it is not difficult at all, Bold also makes a trigger that functions with the original Mauser safeties but you would either have to get a low mounted safety to enable the safety to function underneath the scope or grind/work it down yourself to have enough clearance.

I would opt for the bolt block and the trigger mounted safety. Then if you have your bolt cut and re-welded to enable scope use you should be all set. I think you might see a significant improvement in your groups. Hope this helps. Mikey.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 10, 2003, 12:37:51 PM »

I have sporterised a bunch of swedes and they are great little rifles. Most shoot under and inch at 100 yards. That said please remember the laws of physics, if the bullets wheigh the same the higher velocity bullet WILL create the greater recoil! The 260 was designed to supply the silohuet shooters with a swede without going to the trouble of making the round in this country. The huge influx of M96-38 Swedish mausers into this country a few years back triggered the production of american brass and for what I can tell made the 260 unneeded.. The old mausers are great little rifles and with loads at the level produced with Norma factory ammo will easily best the much higher pressure 260. I haven't checked lately but Winchester did chamber the Clasic Featherweight rifle in the Swede and they are fine little rifles also. I just traded for one.. but the rifle I'm building for my son is based on a M96 Swede made arounf the turn of the century. With cutom wood, PME winchester style bolt shroud/safety, and a Timney Featherweight trigger I wouldn't bet against it in a shooting match! My favorite bullet in the swede is the 125 grain Nosler Partition. The reduced recoil is easy for the sensitive and the premium bullet will penetrate all that's needed on our whitetail. The rifles I've built for others have killed an awful lot of deer and this bullet really works well. A great old rifle and a great little round...

Mikey · « **Reply #28 on:** July 11, 2003, 04:45:24 AM »

gunnut - gee man, I agree with you - each time. Ha! Sorry Buddy, I just had to say that. Mikey.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 11, 2003, 11:56:08 AM »

Sorry Mikey-- the bad part is I don't even know what I did!! We could delete a couple and save GB a bnunch of storage....