WDFW to outlaw target shooting on public lands

[superdown]

Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) Proposes Restrictions on Recreational Shooting

Your Comments are Crucial!
 

The Washington Fish & Wildlife Commission will be considering a proposal on Friday, December 7, that would make it easier to prohibit recreational shooting on land controlled by the Department of Fish & Wildlife (DFW).  This Port Angeles public meeting will be the last of a series of hearings that have been held this summer and fall to consider many issues regarding public conduct on DFW land.

 

Unless there is an outpouring of comments in opposition to the proposed rules in the next two days, the Commission is likely to rubberstamp the proposal that will be before them this Friday.  The proposed rule, WAC 232-13-130 (1) (b), would authorize the DFW to prohibit the discharge of firearms on any or all portions of Department land at any time and for any (or no) reason.  Without public input, DFW could shut down any of their land by merely posting signs.  In the future, they MAY designate limited areas open for limited shooting under WAC 232-13-130 (2).

 

Further, the proposal would create an arbitrary 1000-foot diameter no-shooting area around every designated campground.  Under this proposed language, one individual could be “illegally” shooting one hundred feet away from a campground and be entirely safe while another could be “legally” shooting five hundred and one feet away and be unsafe and irresponsible.  Specific local conditions such as topography and vegetation, variables such as campground usage and season, and the muzzle direction of the shooter, would be removed from the equation. If there are examples of safety concerns regarding specific campsite locations, those should be addressed on a case-by-case basis.  A blanket prohibition to address nonexistent concerns is simply discrimination against the recreational shooters who have a proven record of being remarkably safe and responsible through the years.

 

Finally, proposed WAC 232-13-130 (1) (c) would make it unlawful to fail to remove expended shell casings and other target shooting debris after shooting activities.  NRA requests to add a “good faith effort” or “due diligence” standard to the clean-up language have been ignored.  What that means is that a shooter who makes a legitimate attempt to clean up after his target practice session, but only finds 98 of the 100 shell casings he fired, is subject to sanctions for “littering.”

 

Participation by hunters and recreational shooters at the meeting this Friday is crucial.  Because this is the last in the series of hearings on this proposal, and public input may be limited, it would be even more helpful to submit comments to the Commission.  Given the tight timeframe this must happen immediately!  Comments may be sent in by email to commission@dfw.wa.gov or by fax to 360/902-2448.  You may view the proposed rules by looking up the meeting agenda at http://wdfw.wa.gov/com/dec0807.htm and then clicking on the link under item number nine.  The agenda will also have details regarding the Friday meeting to be held in Port Angeles.


Please everybody email with your opinion. This is a ridiculous proposal

 

[Larry Gibson]

I have emailed them myself regarding opposition. We also have put the word out to the membership of Tacoma Rifle and Revolver Club. I hope other Washington organizations get on the bandwagon. This a very bad form or law through regulation. 

Larry Gibson

[454Puma]

It public land that tax payers own! Screw them!    But as shooters we due need to clean up after ourshelves! We all know there are alot of bone heads not doing this and this is what we get!!!

[superdown]

TODAY  is the proposal so get any e-mails and calls in you can!!!!

[jcn59]

I don't believe "this is what we get".   That makes it sound like we deserve it.  Note that it is our land as much as theirs.  I do believe it's (always) the government trying to disarm the people.  I think the people who wrote the constitution warned us about this a long time ago.

We need to find and use a legal method to remove these people from office when they try to take our freedoms from us, and incarcerate them if possible.  Don't we have lawyer friends or historians out there who know the process? 

[454Puma]

jcn59
   I agree it's our land- they should not stop us from using our land!! But when you get boneheads out shooting everything insite and leaving there trash all over then you have the Government getting stupid!! So we as the users need to cleen up our act! Many of the public land sites I shoot at are dumping grounds- the boneheads bring out the TV's/computers/waterheaters etc to shoot full holes then leave them!! That's why the Gov is going to shut down! When was the last time you took all your spent case and targets out when you left!!

[jcn59]

I NEVER leave my brass & trash.  I'm not suggesting I'm a saint, either.  I'm just writing my thoughts here, 454.  I DON'T have my underwear in a bundle.

Some of this trouble began when NYC started floating their trash around the Atlantic ocean on garbage barges.  Then the tree-huggers declared a garbage crisis everywhere, even in northern Wisconsin.  Then the garbage haulers became environmental engineers.  They could no longer pick up your old furniture for free.  Poor people everywhere tossed their old rugs, furniture, and TVs out at the end of dead end roads.  Anyone could have predicted what was going to happen, except the idiot tree-huggers and of course the short-sighted politicians who foisted these laws upon us. 

I've never seen anyone haul a TV out to the shooting range just to shoot it.   I don't get out much, but I'm not saying it doesn't happen.

The government will use any excuse they can to limit our use of firearms and eventually disarm us.

[obxmike]

Yeah, this crap is already in place here in NC. Used to go out to the woods and plink at will; always safe, always cleaned up whatever mess we made along with whatever mess was already there when we got there. Long story short, the new law was hidden in the guidebook, I missed seeing it, and got a @$#%!! ticket for "unauthorized use of a firearm on public game lands outside of hunting season" AND "possession of a firearm larger than .22 cal and with a bbl length of above maximum length of 7.5" outside of hunting season".
LEO told me "lucky it's not a lose your gun offense...."   GRRRRRRR!!!!!

So, if you decide to go on a walk in the game lands in NC, where we have black bears, wild hogs, feral dogs, etc, you may only have a .22 cal with no more than a 7.5" bbl to carry for protection.


I guess it doesn't amount to much to them; they get to carry whatever they want while they're out. A citizen's life just isn't worth what it once was, I'm afraid...........

[jcn59]

In Wisconsin it is illegal to walk your unleashed dog "on DNR lands from April 15 through July 31" according to the 2007 small game regulations.  I carry a firearm every time I go in the woods these days since our DNR has taken up raising wolves here.

[buck460XVR]

I do believe it's (always) the government trying to disarm the people.  I think the people who wrote the constitution warned us about this a long time ago.

We need to find and use a legal method to remove these people from office when they try to take our freedoms from us, and incarcerate them if possible.  Don't we have lawyer friends or historians out there who know the process? 

I don't think it's as big of conspiracy as all that. I think it's more of a safety and enforcement of game regs issue. A few years back I was politely informed by a DNR warden that target practicing at any time on public lands in Wisconsin was illegal also.... unless it is done at an established shooting range. He stopped as me and my sons were returning to the truck after checkin' the sights on our deer rifles at a area where folks have been shootin' and plinkin' for decades. He said an upset  bowhunter had called to report us, telling the warden  we had ruined his afternoon hunt with our shooting. The warden was almost apologetic about the situation, sayin' that years ago he too came to the same spot and practiced with his deer rifle. He went on to say that because use of public land was changing from mostly hunting to other forms of outdoor recreation besides hunting, that shooting other than at game not only becomes a safety issue, but annoying to other non-hunting users. The mess many leave behind after target shooting was also a reason. He also claimed that by not allowing target shooting, there was no excuse for folk to be walkin' around in the woods with a loaded gun outside of open hunting seasons, thus making it easier to enforce closed seasons on large tracts of public land.

 Made sense back then.

In Wisconsin it is illegal to walk your unleashed dog "on DNR lands from April 15 through July 31" according to the 2007 small game regulations.

very old Wisconsin regulation to protect nesting game birds on public lands from being worked by bird dogs and their trainers. Since I hunt game birds with bird dogs, on public lands, this reg makes sense to me also. They deserve a break to rasie their young, they get enough pressure during the other eight  and a half months.

[jcn59]

Buck.....has captured the essence of what I was trying to say:  The government always has an argument to add a new law to restrict our rights and privileges, but never an argument to expand our rights and privileges.  "It's for our OWN safety, doncha know?"   (Who pays for the land and game manager's salaries anyways?)

The restrictions are  always justified by the actions of a few law breakers, and the governmental "fix" impinges negatively on all of us who obey the rules.  It's the same procedure the anti-gun people have used since 1968, remember?  "It's for our OWN safety..."

I VERY strongly believe that the government should be controlled by the people because as soon as the government controls the people (NOW), there is no more democracy. 

And, "NO", just because I feel strongly about this, or any similar issue, does not mean I am in a "rage" about it.  I call it "Patriotism" to the values that this country was founded upon.

[5knives]

Buck.....has captured the essence of what I was trying to say:  The government always has an argument to add a new law to restrict our rights and privileges, but never an argument to expand our rights and privileges.  "It's for our OWN safety, doncha know?"   (Who pays for the land and game manager's salaries anyways?)

The restrictions are  always justified by the actions of a few law breakers, and the governmental "fix" impinges negatively on all of us who obey the rules.  It's the same procedure the anti-gun people have used since 1968, remember?  "It's for our OWN safety..."

I VERY strongly believe that the government should be controlled by the people because as soon as the government controls the people (NOW), there is no more democracy. 

And, "NO", just because I feel strongly about this, or any similar issue, does not mean I am in a "rage" about it.  I call it "Patriotism" to the values that this country was founded upon.

jcn59 has it right IMHO!

I was discharged from the Marine Corps in '62 and came home to find the state pretty much the way I left it. Over the years I've noticed that more and more licenses, having to swear to abide by more and more rules and regulations have multiplied like deer ticks in May.

Wisconsin was always known as a heavily regulated State With strong socialist leanings, but we've watched all this nonsense progress little by little, year by year, until between the taxes and the semi-police State we've become it's really no longer a fit place to live IMHO.

The DNR has 'regulated hunting' to the point it's just not worth the hassle anymore, Wardens are ticketing 4 year olds for having undersize panfish in their sand buckets (Milwaukee 3 years ago), and along with the problems in the woods with some of the  ah, more recent arrivals, the coddeling of illegals and the rest of the insanity. The latest trespass regulations have made many types of hunting essentially impossible to do legally.  I have lived in other states for short periods, a year or three, and have always been surprised at the lack of licenscing and regulation, compared to WI. Planting wolves in the State then denying the citzenry the right to defend themselves is too foolish to even merit discussion. Don't even get me started on CCW.

Well, didn't mean to ramble, happens when you get ... ummm ... senior.

But jcn59 is on the right track, and so am I. we'll be leaving WI. in March or April and we won't be back!

Wisconsin has just gotten too small, and too crowded, the western slope of Colorado feels a lot more comfortable! If not there's always Wyoming.

I've just gotten VERY weary of looking over my shoulder every minute, just in case I'm violating some new rule I never heard of.

BTW, Gun Control isn't about Guns, it's about Control!

The founders knew that !

JMHO, YMMV.
Regards,

[Mikey]

jcn59, 5knives - I've been a neu yawk estata resident all my life and governmental BS is a way of life here.  Now they are looking at 50 caliber muzzle loaders as dangerous anti aircraft weapons.  I can't wait until they decide the bow and arrows constitute a silent assault weapon, and then the native Americans are really gonna be whizzed and want all their land back. 

You are both correct, but the way to deal with this nonsense is not to leave for greener pastures but to fight this type of idiocy.  Many gunowners simply sit and whizz off at this or that new regulation or proposal but rarely do anything about it except grouse to the choir.  Politicians hope those of us who become disgruntled will just leave - their worst fear is when we stay and fight.  Politics is at its worst at the local level but that is where the individual voices of those opposed are most effective.  When political nonsense gets steamrolled at the local level it rarely has a chance to go anywhere else.  Already the governor's office here is inundated with comments about the 50 caliber ban and I think this governor is beginning to see that some fanatics have no limitations, not even those relating to a common sense approach to regulate or not. 

The place to deal with issues like the proposed Washington State law is right there at the fish and wildlife commission, not the slopes of Colorado or some other current hunting euphoria. 

I'm not holding my breathe for the Supreme Court to decide on the 2nd Amendment as that won't mean a whole bunch to any anti hunting governor who wants to restrict hunting, in any way but I don't hold my breathe when some local fanatic tries dreaming up a law to deal with a problem that doesn't exist.  JMTCW.  MIkey.

[jcn59]

I'd like to bail on Wisconsin but it probably won't happen because I have family here.    It might anyways.   I'd like to go to a state like Wyoming with no income tax.   I sure wouldn't encourage anyone to move here.  Nazi Germany had fewer restriction on the Jews than we have under Pope Doyle.

But isn't there a procedure to remove congressmen (and other state and federal politicians) from office?  It would seem that if they swear to uphold the Constitution when they take office, then support bills to eliminate our constitutional rights, we should be able to (legally) remove them from office and incarcerate them.  I'm not talking about congress removing them from office; I'm talking about the public removing them.  Is that what "tarring and feathering" was invented for?

What is the procedure?

[5knives]

Mikey,

I do not disagree with your comments in any way.

I just wish it were possible to affect things here, but I feel it no longer is.

Bluntly, after 55 years of fighting the BS. I'm tired.

I was one of the folks that fought, lobbied, contributed and I supposes whined enough to get handgun hunting legalized here back in the '60's. From the first experimental hunts at Sand Hills to they day we finally got the Regs settled and passed. We were pretty pleased with what we'd accomplished, still am actually!

Good thing we got it done then, because I don't believe you could get it through today. Not without bigger pay-offs then ordinary people could raise the cash for anyhow.

That new regulation they're trying to slip through in Washington, was the same one that I identify as the 'beginning of the end' here. The 'Approved' range rule was a nice touch, there's ONE State operated range in Wisconsin, in the S.W corner of the state. Gets a tad crowded at times. Some of the folks 'up North' feel a 180 mile trip each way is a bit much to let a kid shoot his new .22 on a sunday afternoon. especially when you might have to wait 3 hours to get in your hour of shooting.

And one by one they're forcing out the private ranges with the excuses of noise complaint, Safety, Ecosystem damage from the lead, etc. etc They get crowded too, many are not open to the public and not interested in new members. And there are fewer every year.

That leaves a friendly land owner with a safe place to shoot as the only viable option.

Presently I'm living (just barely) inside Milwaukee County. Just think everything you've ever heard about Chicago in the '60's. 

City of Milwaukee had 10,000 more votes cast in 2004 than it had registered voters, Polls had to stay open extra hours to accommodate them.

Machine politics, and monumental vote fraud, an individual citizen has NO voice, and his vote does not matter unless it matches the party vote.

Referendums are non-binding and therefore meaningless, as are public hearings, officials at every level listen a bit and then proceed with whatever they planned to do in the first place.

Governor/Emperor has vetoed CCW 3 times IIRC and Voter ID twice, I might have those numbers reversed.

Colorado is bad enough, dangerously close to being a wannabe wisconsin, but the smaller population means an individual has a voice, locally at least, especially on the Western side.

My family has been here since before Wisconsin was a state and most still are, But I'm retired now, 70 in '08,  and the Taxes are the final decision maker. My youngest son is a CPA, and when I told him we were leaving, his only comment was "Don't blame you, what took you so long?" Well, later he did say he'd miss us but he was pretty sure there was probably Airline Service to Grand Junction at least, maybe return flights too."

jcn59 is correct with the Nazi comment. Nazi just meant National Socialist Party , and Wisconsin is one of the top socialist States in the U.S. Even if they do call themselves 'progressives' since, Bob LaFollette, 'Fighting Bob', back in the '20's. Course Milwaukee did have a Socialist Party Mayor (Zeigler) for over 16 years. I'm not a big fan of Centralized Control of everything either, so that's one more reason.

Regards,

[Mikey]

5knives:  I can easily understand your position.

jcn59:  The procedure is as follows:  (1) get a couple of large buckets of tar, a couple of tar brushes, half a dozen feather pillows, some rope and a good fence rail; (2) heat the tar for easy application; (3) drag said aforementioned politicians from their offices and use the rope to hog tie them to the fence rail;  (4) apply said heated tar until the aforesaid politicians are well covered with the aforesaid and previously heated tar; (5) whop each politician a buncha times with the feather pillows until they are thoroughly feathered, and (6) attache the aforementioned fence rail, with the aforementioned and now tarred and feathered politician still attached, to the nearest horse and send'm outta town..................

Actually, that's being nice about it.  I guess revoltin' is in my family.  One of my mother's very distant ancestors, a woman named Martha Zey, lead the women of Schoharie against the Sheriff of Albany when he came to take an 'accounting' of their lands and properties while the men were out of town.  The women de-horsed him, broke one of his arms, put out one of his eyes, tarred and feathered the guy and sent him packin' on his horse back to Albany. 

The recipe for tarring and feathering has been passed down my mother's family line through the generations.  I think it is still a good one................Hope this helps.  Mikey.

[jcn59]

Mikey,

I can't comprehend all those big words in your six step T & F  process.  Perhaps you could demonstrate the procedure to a group of us individuals by using Barron Von Doyle as a subject.  Even if it was just for the sake of a demonstration of how your family handles conflict.

jim

[Mikey]

Wasn't or isn't he the CEO who spent a couple of weeks playing golf, bridge and smokin' pot while his company floundered???  Be glad to!  Point that sumna so an so out an I'll have granny heat up the tar buckets. 

Ya'll weren't talkin' 'bout internal family conflicts were ya?  We don't have any of those.............. Got any fence rails nearby??? Mikey.

[Jack Ryan]

I wish they would stop the "target" practice going on in public land in Indiana.

I'm all for hunting. If you want to hunt then hunt but do your practice at home, not where I'm hunting. Just because you don't have a place to shoot 'em up doesn't mean ever one in the forrest should be ducking every time you and the kids want to hear it go bang.

I hunt, but I hunt mushrooms, camp, scout and hunt every other season too. I don't need you shooting up the gate when I'm walking up the path back to the truck or over the hills either.

Don't even start with that "I never...." because some one is doing it.













I'm a hunter and I'm fed up with this bullsht.

Do your sighting in and shooting at home not where there are full camo bow hunters, people squirrel or turkey hunting.

Public ground is crowded enough with out the geniuses who just stop the car and think they can just cut loose and shoot any old direction they feel like when they step out of the car or truck.

[wyocarp]

Jack Ryan, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.  I think taking a gun to the woods with your son or daughter is wonderful bonding time.  We also go to ranges, but it doesn't instill the same learning.  If you find someone shooting and you don't like it, just turn around and go another way.  It would be nice to not have garbage everywhere, but it won't stay there forever, and, you could always pick it up.  We can get so worried about this planet that has been around for a long time that we forget to live.

[jcn59]

Much of the public land is for everyone to use.  The abuse is unfortunate.  I'd encourage the DNR & other law enforcement to patrol  this valuable resource more diligently.  The damage is only done by a very few.  Catch them & punish them.

[corbanzo]

The problem here is that the people who are proposing the laws aren't actually the ones which are using those lands.  They don't really know what goes on out there.  It is the sportsmen who are the ones which actually get out and explore and see what is in the woods.  There are quite a few campers and hikers that do get out there, but it only takes one of them to give their story to the governement, problem being is that if the governement only has that one story that is what they have to go off of, which is why the government needs the input of all the sportsmen out there. 

And you know, I do have to agree with Jack Ryan on some of his points, we need to police our own kind.  There are a lot of people who are irresponsible with firearms.  We see shot up trees, road signs, bottle, all that crap everywhere.   I try and pick up all of that kind of stuff when I go out shooting.  I know I can't solve the problem, but I can sure as heck help.  Tell me that after you took those pictures of the cans and bottle that you picked them up.  If you didn't you aren't deserving of your riteous speach as much as you may think.

I know there are yahoos, that isn't going to stop.  And you know, I don't really mind legislation which could have USEFUL restrictions.  I don't believe that wanton destruction of plant and animal life is a good thing.  I do beleive that pest control, trail upkeep, plant, animal, tree, etc harvest are necessary things in our life.  I don't mind seeing dead trees all shot up.  I don't even mind seeing "target" trees.  There are a couple of places I go where you can see there are a few trees that are shot up from people mounting targets, and the others around all shot up.  That is good.  Place to shoot if you must, because some are, and leave the other stuff alone.

And restriction shooting in the forest isn't the answer.  I shoot branches all the time in the forest.  It isn't going to kill the tree, or leave a big mangled mark, but it does keep my eye keen.  EVERY shooter should know the rules.

Always be sure of your equipment, your skill, your target, and your backdrop.  That simple.  That is gun safety in one sentence.  If you are sure of all of those things, you aren't going to hurt anyone.

You have to make sure that we are all helping also..  remind people that if they keep abusing their rights with firearms... they are going to lose those rights.  Once again... it's pretty damn simple once you look at it.

[Jack Ryan]

Jack Ryan, I wholeheartedly disagree with you.  I think taking a gun to the woods with your son or daughter is wonderful bonding time.  We also go to ranges, but it doesn't instill the same learning.  If you find someone shooting and you don't like it, just turn around and go another way. 

If you find someone shooting and you don't like it, just turn around and go another way.

That's a nice thought unless they put a bullet in your head from a quarter mile away because the morons are shooting down the fire trail.

You can bond with your daughter all you want in the woods. Just don't toss out a few cans and start shooting in to the public hunting / hiking / everything else woods for no good reason other than you can only seem to bond while fireing your weapon and even then only while fireing it in the woods where you don't have a clue what is beyond your target.

Do it on a range.

[Jack Ryan]

And you know, I do have to agree with Jack Ryan on some of his points, we need to police our own kind.  There are a lot of people who are irresponsible with firearms.  We see shot up trees, road signs, bottle, all that crap everywhere.   I try and pick up all of that kind of stuff when I go out shooting.  I know I can't solve the problem, but I can sure as heck help.  Tell me that after you took those pictures of the cans and bottle that you picked them up.  If you didn't you aren't deserving of your riteous speach as much as you may think.

Of course I picked it up.

[jcn59]

It's bad form to engage in random recreational shooting on land where others may be hunting.  Generally there may be up to ten months per year when there are no hunters on that property. 

If shooting is the goal, they why not go to a range during the few weeks of the hunting season.  That's only courteous.  Otherwise shoot where it's legal, & always observe gun safety rules.  It's public land.  No one user group trumps another.  Treat others with respect..... if they deserve it.

[bscman]

I contacted an agent from the WDFW about this a few months ago as was given a pretty basic response.

Ultimately, WDFW has the ability to close down land (controlled by them) to shooting, or any recreational activity as they see fit anyway. This more or less just puts that abilitly into writing. 
Beyond that, it simply imposes that people not shoot from or near campgrounds or recreational sights--which I think is just common sense and good practice, anyway I think.
Beyond that, it does NOT affect recreational shooting on other STATE, NATIONAL, or PRIVATE land...simply those directly controlled by the DFW.


Recreational shooting in Washington is pretty much fair game. Depending on who owns the land (and any county ordinances) will determine the rules for shooting.
For instance, the DNR has the same ability to close land controlled by them to shooting (and they do!), but generally allow shooting in most areas.
No shooting in state parks, while most other state land (that is open to public) is open to shooting.
National forests allow shooting, but no damaging resources (LIVE TREES!), no shooting explosive materials (propane tanks), no tracers, etc.
No shooting means no shooting. See that sign, don't shoot. Period. Any landowner can limit the activities that take place on their property....

I fully agree that we should be able to recreation-ally shoot on public lands, where it is safe to do so. The problem comes from people who litter, litter, litter! Beyond that, there are the unsafe yaw-hoo's that shoot gates, sights, etc.  These guys are the reason why shooting and hunting is getting so difficult in Washington....
Private lands (timber companies are a big one!) are closing down their property because of all these people that are dumping, littering, and damaging land.

Trying to prohibit ALL shooting because of a few bad apples is no different than trying to ban guns because of gun violence. It doesn't make sense, and it turns law abiding, upstanding citizens into criminals.

Lets take the time to pick up after ourselves, choose safe places to shoot, NOT DAMAGE property, and generally just leave these area's in better shape than we found 'em. If we ALL did this, and reported the guys that are dumping and being unsafe, we wouldn't have nearly the problems that we currently do!

JMHO.