SST performance...With reference to the extensive Ballistic Tip thread ....

[SuperstitionCoues]

I am not about to enter into the fray of the Nosler discussion... but I do have a question for anyone out there who may read this.

I typically load Sierras and Hornadys, in a traditional Gamemaster or Interlock design.  Sometimes I will load the Hndy SST, if I think I have the need for it. 

My question is, has anyone ever had a terminal ballistic experience with an SST (similar in design to a Nosler Ballistic Tip yet different) as others, including NONYA, have experienced with the Nosler products?  Please let me know, and no, this will not turn into a flame war.

[burntmuch]

I was gonna ask the same thing . Are they the same type bullet.  Ive used the sst 20gauge with good luck.

[rickt300]

I have just about decided to refuse any comment on plastic tipped bullets of any kind. I tried a box of the 150 grain SST's in my heavy barreled 308 and they shot beautifully, so nice that I shot every one at paper. They appear to be designed similarly to the dreaded Nosler product although they don't have the solid base and thick sidewalls.

[Brithunter]

Sorry but as yet I have not used any on game. Hopefully will before too long as have had some reasonable success with loading them in the 6mm and hopefully will do so in the .243.

[700xcr]

Have a buddy used a 150gt. SST in a 300wsm on a mule deer doe at 210yds. She was bedded down. Shot was behind front shoulder broadside. She was DOA when hit. No exist wound. Just entrance. At the shot it was Whop and she rolled over. I claim no bullet failure do to it did purpose intended.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I used the 150 gr 30-06 on a doe a couple of weeks ago, and it was a rear shot between the hams (Yeah I knew better too, but it's the only deer I saw this year, and it looked like a giant bag of jerky running up the hill).  It was offhand, 80 yds, and I pulled it a bit left and hit the ham.  Maybe the bullet ticked a branch and started to expand, who knows, but the entrance hole was big enough to put my HEAD in.  Penetration was minimal, with shards of jacket material reaching the backstrap, but not the vitals.  The animal died from blood loss and the shock (I guess) broke the pelvis.  I was disappointed that the bullet didn't reach the vitals at all.  The deer might have weighed 100 lbs live weight, not large by any standard.  Thanks god it wasn't a big buck.

[Coyote Hunter]

kyelkhunter –

I busted a buck in the ham this year as well.  It was a quartering away shot and the buck stepped forward just as the trigger broke.  Thank goodness I was using a North Fork bullet instead of a cup-and-core bullet.  The bullet reached the vitals and dropped the deer in its tracks.  Weight retention for the 140g 7mm bullet was 131.2g for 93.7%.  Very little meat was lost.

Experiences such as yours are why many folks, including myself, prefer Partitions, monolithics, or bonded core bullets.

[jasonprox700]

Although this is another plastic tip, I think that the accubond is not a bad choice.  It won't retain the weight like the partition, but it does hold together well.  I switched to these this year.  I have only shot one deer with them so far, so not really a lot of experience.  This is what I can say though.  I switched from 140 grain Sierra Gamekings for my .280.  I have had one pass through in over ten years of using these.  Last year I shot a doe at 40 or 50 yards perfectly broadside behind the shoulder.  Small entrance hole, I missed all of the ribs.  The bullet exploded and didn't even touch the opposite side.  This year, I shot a buck from the same stand, only on the opposite side of where the doe was, same yardage.  There was about a 1" entrance hole and about a 2.5" to 3" exit. 

[Coyote Hunter]

kyelkhunter -

Out of curiosity, what was the muzzle velocity of your load?  I'd like to calculate the impact velocity.

Just guessing around 2950fps at the muzzle and somewhat under 2800fps 80 yards later at impact?

Thanks,

CH

[Dave in WV]

I have shot one deer (close range neck shot) with a 165gr SST at about 2700 fps. It didn't explode and I didn't recover the bullet. My son shot a deer with a 165gr BT with a similar load ( 50 yard neck shot) and there was considerably more meat damage. He did not recover the bullet. One deer with each load does not give a true picture but that was our experience. My son has loaded 139gr SSTs in his .280 with a muzzle velocity of 2900 + fps. He has got several deer with that load (most under 100 yards) and has never recovered a bullet. The SST bullets seem a bit tougher than BTs IMHO based on several other hunter's experince with BTs at close range using 180gr BTs out of a .308 and 140gr BTs with a .280. BTW, my son is switching to 139gr Hornady Interlock flat base bullets. They shooy about as good as the SSTs and cost less and are less destrctive.

What bullet, powder, firearm, or scope one uses does not matter. What matters is a humane kill first and being pleased with your choice of load and fiream second. If one uses a super duper $1 a piece bullet that shoots five shot "bug hole" groups at 100 yards more power to you. If you use a load and rig that gives 2" three shot groups at 100 yards and you always get a humane kill more power to you too. Being able to hit your game in the kill zone is first in importance. The terminal ballistics you get is second but almost as important IMHO. A bullet that fails to give consistant one shot kills when game is properly hit demonstrates a true bullet failure. Has anyone else noticed bullets seem more fragile in the past 10 years or so? Many folks wanted  "bang flop" kills and to get them more consistanty more fragile bullets (using cup and core type) are needed. The "X" type bullets transfer shock over a longer time frame but are not fragile yet seem to get the same results (bang flop) as a more fragile bullet.  More fragile bullets will normaly cause more meat damage to get the "bang flop" kill. There is no free lunch. Your opinion may be different. In this case, don't confuse me with the facts as I've made up my mind.

[Mac11700]

Has anyone else noticed bullets seem more fragile in the past 10 years or so?

No...not really...What I have seen is a bunch of new bullets on the market and the folks at Nosler & Hornady making different style bullets available to shooters and hand loaders...which puts more responsibility on the individual shooter to be able to match the load to the conditions they are using them for...I don't think they are making them more fragile...

Mac

[burntmuch]

I have shot one deer (close range neck shot) with a 165gr SST at about 2700 fps. It didn't explode and I didn't recover the bullet. My son shot a deer with a 165gr BT with a similar load ( 50 yard neck shot) and there was considerably more meat damage. He did not recover the bullet. One deer with each load does not give a true picture but that was our experience. My son has loaded 139gr SSTs in his .280 with a muzzle velocity of 2900 + fps. He has got several deer with that load (most under 100 yards) and has never recovered a bullet. The SST bullets seem a bit tougher than BTs IMHO based on several other hunter's experince with BTs at close range using 180gr BTs out of a .308 and 140gr BTs with a .280. BTW, my son is switching to 139gr Hornady Interlock flat base bullets. They shooy about as good as the SSTs and cost less and are less destrctive.

What bullet, powder, firearm, or scope one uses does not matter. What matters is a humane kill first and being pleased with your choice of load and fiream second. If one uses a super duper $1 a piece bullet that shoots five shot "bug hole" groups at 100 yards more power to you. If you use a load and rig that gives 2" three shot groups at 100 yards and you always get a humane kill more power to you too. Being able to hit your game in the kill zone is first in importance. The terminal ballistics you get is second but almost as important IMHO. A bullet that fails to give consistant one shot kills when game is properly hit demonstrates a true bullet failure. Has anyone else noticed bullets seem more fragile in the past 10 years or so? Many folks wanted  "bang flop" kills and to get them more consistanty more fragile bullets (using cup and core type) are needed. The "X" type bullets transfer shock over a longer time frame but are not fragile yet seem to get the same results (bang flop) as a more fragile bullet.  More fragile bullets will normaly cause more meat damage to get the "bang flop" kill. There is no free lunch. Your opinion may be different. In this case, don't confuse me with the facts as I've made up my mind.

  Dont confuse me with facts, Ive made up my mind.   Thats funny

[kyelkhunter3006]

kyelkhunter –

I busted a buck in the ham this year as well.  It was a quartering away shot and the buck stepped forward just as the trigger broke.  Thank goodness I was using a North Fork bullet instead of a cup-and-core bullet.  The bullet reached the vitals and dropped the deer in its tracks.  Weight retention for the 140g 7mm bullet was 131.2g for 93.7%.  Very little meat was lost.

Experiences such as yours are why many folks, including myself, prefer Partitions, monolithics, or bonded core bullets.

I'd read that the SST was supposed to be tougher than the Nosler BT, so that's why I tried it.  The gun is a Remington 7400, not exactly the best gun for accuracy, but the SST's shot less than an inch at 100 yds, the only other load I'd tried that did that was the 180 gr Winchester Failsafe.  Just about any other will shoot 1.75"-2.5" at 100.  I really want to try the Interbond or the Swift Scirocco (is that spelled right?) plastic tip, but was too lazy to order any of them.  Using the 165gr and 180gr Core-Lokts in 30-06, and 120gr Core-lokts in 25-06 have reached the vitals from any angle, usually exiting, from ranges of 50-250 yds.  I'll never use the SST on deer again.  Several people I know love the CT Ballistic Silvertip 180gr 30-06 load.  My buddy shot a nice 9pt that dressed out about 150lbs with it at 35yds, quartering to us, just inside the front shoulder, and the bullet passed completely through, exiting the  flank and taking a couple of ribs with it.  And it didn't blow an exit hole the size of a football either.  The performance seemed very much like that people claim from the bonded core bullets.  I was so surprised that I checked his ammo to make sure than it wasn't the Accubond load.  It wasn't, it was the box of Silvertips that I'd given him, because they didn't shoot worth a hoot in my rifle.

[kyelkhunter3006]

kyelkhunter -

Out of curiosity, what was the muzzle velocity of your load?  I'd like to calculate the impact velocity.

Just guessing around 2950fps at the muzzle and somewhat under 2800fps 80 yards later at impact?

Thanks,

CH

According to Hornady, the MV is 2910fps.  I'm sure that's with a 24" barrel.  I had the 22" barrel on my 7400 chopped to 20" several years ago to get rid of a bad section of rifling that was about an inch down the bore that fouled like crazy.  When I did that, the accuracy improved enough to make it worth having it done.  I don't have a chrono, but I'd guess that MV was probably around 2800fps, using the old standby of 25fps lost per inch of barrel.  So maybe 2650fps or so at 80 yds?  I had to have clipped a branch or something, but I went back the next day and couldn't find anything that looked like I'd hit it.  I'm about to go to the grocery and buy some old or outdated beef ribs and set them up at 80yds and shoot them to see what happens.  If I take another deer this year, it might just get used for ballistic experimentation instead of jerky.  After I take out the backstraps of course.   

[Coyote Hunter]

kyelkhuner -

Given 2800fps at the muzzle the 150g SST would be doing around 2737fps at 80 yards.  That's certaily a velocity I would expect a centerfire bullet for a bolt rifle to perform well rather than blow up, but it often doesn't seem to be the case with poly-tipped cup-and-core bullets.

[kyelkhunter3006]

I'm just going to have find a test medium and see what happens.  Truth in science....

[Don Fischer]

I have a theory on all plastic tipped bullet's. I don't think they are actually more fragile but when they hit, that tip is given a short jump start that starts the jacket peeling before the core is hit then slams into the center of the core of the bullet. What ever happens to the tip after that, who knows. But I suspect that the initial disruption of the jacket and core due to that and the fact that it slams the center, I would think helps to create these bullets that blow. In the bonded core bullets the same exact thing happens but, the core is bonded to the jacket probably keeping the jacket from flying apart and then the jacket helps support the core.

The only plastic tip bullets I've used were 75 gr V-Max in a 243. I found that shooting thru 2" of Styrofoam target backing, the core's were separated completely from the jacket's. The jackets were found laying, in pieces, on the ground about five yards behind the target. If I remember right, the plastic tip was first used by a Canadian Co., ICL I think it was called. The idea was to stop tips from being battered in the magazine, They didn't last. Then I heard the same about the Nosler BT when they first came out but with a claim of a better B.C. also, for down range performance. Well I don't see where it improved the B.C. enough to make a real difference at even very long range. If we look at the 139gr 7mm bullet in SST and as a BTSP the difference is only .033 B.C. in favor of the SST. That won't get you a lot down range. At 500 yds with a 200 yd zero and 3000fps mv, the SST will drop 38.1" and the BTSP will drop39.2". Those are Hornady's figures. We're only talking 1" less drop for that .033 B.C at 500yds. The down side is that tip that gets driven back into the core.

I do believe that if I was to try a plastic tip bullet, it would be a bonded core bullet, not an SST. It looks like in most calibers where an SST is avaliable, so is an IB. The only thing that's different is one is bonded core and one is not.

[264 WIN MAG]

I know someone who tried the SST in a 30/06. Same bad performance I've seen in the BT.

[nomosendero]

kyelkhuner -

Given 2800fps at the muzzle the 150g SST would be doing around 2737fps at 80 yards.  That's certaily a velocity I would expect a centerfire bullet for a bolt rifle to perform well rather than blow up, but it often doesn't seem to be the case with poly-tipped cup-and-core bullets.

That general statement cannot be made with 2,800fps vel. only. I have found it pays to go with a SD a little above the old rule of thumb of .250,
at least when going beyond 2,800-2,900 the more the vel, the more you should exceed that SD with a softer cup & core & not just a SST or BT, but Sierra & others as well.
For example, I have shot 25-30 Whitetails with the 180BT in a 30-06AI, SD of the 180 is .271 & the vel was 2,900-2,950 & not a problem, none.
My cousin & his boys used the 308 with the 165, SD is .248, but vel was 2,700, so not one problem on those 30 plus Whitetails.

None of us lost any & I know of many, many more, but again the match-up has to be right, namely heavier for caliber & 3,000fps or under if shoulder shots are involved at close range, that simple. I have heard of many successes with the 150 factory load in the 30-06, 308 & 130in the 270 & others, but if you use the extra insurance I have mentioned you will have no problems. Now, if you lung shoot Deer up close & shoot shoulders or angles at 200 yards & over then the 130gr. 270 & many others become great bullets for Antelope, Mule Deer etc. Just remember the SD part of the equation.  

So if you want to shoulder shoot a Deer at 100 yards with a 95gr. 243 with a SD of .230, expect trouble, however a lung shot would be fine & the same applys for Sierra & others of comparable weight even without the plastic.

Careful study will eliminate these matters in most cases. If you want to shoot Deer in the shoulder up close with small cal., low SD bullets at high vel, then use another bullet. Shooting Deer in the butt & angles up close rquire other bullets & in some and under the big 25's, different guns
& something I would rather not do anyway.

It goes back to the fact that you need to know when & how to use the bullets. If you don't know it is not the bullets fault.

[nomosendero]

Yea, I hear bad on about every bullet & we always will.

Don, more than trajectory is at play here, the SST will expand better at the 500 yards you mention, or for that matter at 300. Also, the drop difference is small as you said, but only if the lead tip is perfect. Yes, I have read the test about how the POI difference is small at 100 yards with deformed bullet tips & I have seen this small difference myself, but that is 100 yards. At longer ranges the
bullet tip matters a bunch, the longer the range the more it matters, due to the BC being diff. from one tip to the next. Now, those Hornady numbers go right out the window. Don, I know that you are aware of this, only pointing it out to others.

Sooo, long range accuracy & long range consistancy is some of the main reasons for the SST. If a person is shooting 100-200 yards only, it's a no-brainer, buy a regular bullet & why did you buy a plastic tip to start with?

[Don Fischer]

I'm not a plastic tip fan so tell mw. Would you pick the SST over the Interbond?

[nomosendero]

I'm not a plastic tip fan so tell mw. Would you pick the SST over the Interbond?

Under the guidelines that I mentioned before, heavy for caliber/ reasonable vel & weight, SST is fine for Deer. The conversation has been pretty much about Deer, though I went back to the first post & it did not say that specifically. I know you like a 270 & with a 140SST at 270Win speed, no way would it not penetrate enough, TX heart shot notwithstanding! I know you like your 6.5-06 & with a SST at .520
it is one fine long range bullet & with a SD of .287, you are going to get more than enough penetration for ANY DEER. For big animals like Elk, Moose, Bear, etc. I would go with the bonded core, no doubt. In fact, little brother shot a nice Cow Elk last week in a special
permit hunt here in North AR, the 180 Acc. busted a rib going in, destroyed the heart & lower lungs busted a rib on the off side & blew
through the shoulder, impressive to say the least. Pictures of this Elk & several Deer & Antelope will be posted after the busy Holidays, Lord willing.

[Mac11700]

Am I dating myself...but does any one remember the Remington Bronze tips...? My dad used them and loved the performance of them for long range mule deer and whitetails and would drop the deer he shot with them bang flop...I do remember his words of caution to me on them though...put them in the lungs...not the shoulders...It seems even back then they had their fair share of issues...with tipped bullets...even metal ones ehh

[Siskiyou]

I have taken quite a few deer with the Remington Bronze Point.  Some in the heart lung regions were bang-flop.  But not all, if the bullet hit a little low in the heart.  Typically the bullet turn to fragments inside a deer chest cavity, and once and while the far side would have a few cuts in it from bullet or bone fragments.

As a kid my buddies and I studied all the free brochures the firearms industry gave out.  When my Dad gave me a M760 in .270 Winchester I had to have Remington factory Bronze Point ammunition.  When the next brother in line received his M760 he had to have Bronze Points.  In past years in observing deer being skinned out and bullets recovered I expected to recover a mushroomed bullet, it never happen with Bronze Points, just fragments.  Admititly, we were normally hunting brush fields and the range was less then 150 yards.   A heart shot deer would continue on, leaving a few dime size blood drops for a 100-yards and then rolled down a hill out sight.  I credit some of my tracking skills to the Bronze Point.  I remember crawling around in deep brush looking for a buck my brother shot.  The deer was recovered but it was work.  He found me back at the pickup at the end of the day because he needed help.  Dad sent me back because it was a mile uphill hike, and I was young.  The buck had left a few drops of foam filled blood.  A bullet that would have created an exit wound most likely would have resulted in quicker recovery of the deer.

On a Sunday one year I needed more ammunition and the only place that was open was a local bar.  It carried Remington 130-grain pointed CL.  I shot a buck at very close range and recover a deeply mushroomed bullet.  What is more then I ever recovered with a Bronze Pt.

But the lesson did not sink-in.  It should have, the local timber faller who hauled me out hunting was using .270 Remington 150 grain C-L and getting full penetration and good blood trails.  He would fill his two tags and his wife’s tags every year to feed his kids.

A local gunshop owner using my brass loaded my first reloads.  I selected Remington Bronze Pts. as my bullet.  Ballistic charts and not what I was seeing in the field were still impressing me.  It was not until I started reloading that I changed my tune.  I purchased some 150 Norma bullets at a low price.  The results in the field quickly convinced me that there were better bullets then Bronze Points.  Recovered jack material and a saw in half Bronze Point convinced me the jackets are very thin.

Independently my brother came to the same conclusion when he found that WW 150 grain Power Points were more effective then 130-grain Bronze Points.

When I obtained a second .270 I decided to try Hornady 130 grain bullets.  They held together and killed deer.  Once I started reloading 140-grain Hornady bullets I quit using 130-grain bullets for deer.  I did continue to use the 130-grain Hornady for antelope.  At that point I committed the M760 to 150-grain bullets and the Savage 110 to 130-140 grain bullets.  I started my son out with a .270 and it has never seen a Bronze Point. 



A few years ago when I still had a 30-06 my brother gave me two boxes of 180 grain .30 caliber Bronze Pts. that had been given to him.  I gave them away.  I still have a few .277 Bronze Points in my loading box and I will use them for target practice.  I also found them to be very effective on jackrabbits, woodchucks, and coyotes.

There was a time that I drove a hundred miles to get a couple boxes of Bronze Points for my reloading.  But I have learned my lesson in the field

[NONYA]

A very valuable lesson that undoubtedly saved you lost game and/or long nights of tracking in the years past.Some have to learn it the hard way,I wish I would have had someone sharing field experience with me before I did my own field testing and found that I had made a huge mistake and loaded vastly inferior bullets to the ones I was taught to load when I began handloading(Partitions),new is not always better,and in most cases cheaper is never better.(although I would load the cheapest remington corelokts over most of the high priced nosler line any day)

[Todd1700]

A bullet that would have created an exit wound most likely would have resulted in quicker recovery of the deer.

I never used the old bronze tip bullets but I have a few friends that did. Their performance on game, as described by them and you, sound identical to what I have seen with modern ballistic tip bullets. Rapid over expansion, fragmentation, poor penetration and only the random rare exit hole.

[NONYA]

The only time i got exits with the plastic tipped noslers was with head shots.

[nomosendero]

Todd, I am surprised that you used them at all. You have said repeatedly & I mean many times that where you hunt a long shot is just not feasible. Since that is the case I don't know why you used them or what they could offer for you. I would have never bought the first plastic tip bullet if 200 yards is a long shot.

Here is a decent article, it may help some.   http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ammunition/plastic_fantastic/

Again, know how to use them, if not there are alot of other good bullets out there.

[SuperstitionCoues]

Am I dating myself...but does any one remember the Remington Bronze tips...? My dad used them and loved the performance of them for long range mule deer and whitetails and would drop the deer he shot with them bang flop...I do remember his words of caution to me on them though...put them in the lungs...not the shoulders...It seems even back then they had their fair share of issues...with tipped bullets...even metal ones ehh

I think they are back in production.

[burntmuch]

What about the hornady SSts for muzzleloaders or the sabots for slug guns. They re moving a lot slower.  I shot a buck thru the back from a treestand at 50 yards. I was happy with the performance. & I m using them in my muzzleloader. Im going out this afternoon, so hopefully Ill have a feid report for you guys.