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Offline Matt

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The Arctic is screaming
« on: December 13, 2007, 04:54:12 PM »
A huge drop in sea ice sparks plea: 'The Arctic is screaming'
By Seth Borenstein

Associated Press


WASHINGTON - The dramatic decline of Arctic ice in recent summers greatly accelerated this year, a sign that some alarmed scientists worry could mean global warming is picking up speed.
Greenland's ice sheet shrank far below what scientists had previously seen, and the volume of Arctic sea ice at summer's end was half what was recorded four years earlier, according to new NASA satellite data.

"The Arctic is screaming," said Mark Serreze, senior scientist at the government's snow and ice data center in Boulder, Colo.

Just last year, two top scientists had surprised their colleagues by projecting the possible disappearance of summer Arctic sea ice by 2040.

After reviewing his own new data this week, NASA climate scientist Jay Zwally said: "At this rate, the Arctic Ocean could be nearly ice-free at the end of summer by 2012, much faster than previous predictions."

As is often the case with global warming, however, more data also raise more questions for researchers. Chief among them: Was 2007's record melt a blip in a steadier trend or is the impact of global warming being felt faster even than most computer models' worst-case scenarios?

"The Arctic is often cited as the canary in the coal mine for climate warming," Zwally said. "Now, as a sign of climate warming, the canary has died."

The new data, based on satellite images, came amid a U.N.-led conference on the Indonesian island of Bali that is aimed at laying the groundwork for international consensus on tackling climate change. But there is wide disagreement among nations about how to proceed.

What happens in the Arctic has implications worldwide. Because so much water is frozen in the form of ice, the melting eventually will cause a rise in sea levels.

A decline of sea ice also will affect weather patterns, with less rain and snow in some regions and more in others.

The extent of the 2007 retreat in summer ice surprised many scientists.

"I don't pay much attention to one year," said Waleed Abdalati, NASA's chief of cyrospheric sciences, "but this year the change is so big, particularly in the Arctic sea ice, that you've got to stop and say, 'What is going on here?' You can't look away from what's happening."

Greenland, which is mostly covered by ice, is of particular concern to scientists. If it completely melted - likely over a period of centuries, not decades - it could add more than 22 feet to the world's sea level.

Over nearly three decades of satellite observations, the extent of Greenland's ice melt has increased and then decreased every couple of years. This summer did not fit the pattern.

"I'm quite concerned," said Konrad Steffen of the University of Colorado, which gathered the latest data. "Now I look at 2008. Will it be even warmer than the past year?"

Melting of ice on Greenland and in the Arctic Ocean also alarms scientists because it becomes part of a spiral.

White sea ice reflects about 80 percent of the sun's heat off Earth, NASA's Zwally said. Without sea ice, about 90 percent of the heat goes into the ocean, which then warms everything else. Warmer oceans then lead to more melting.

NASA scientist James Hansen is expected to tell a meeting of researchers in San Francisco tomorrow that the Greenland data suggest that the warming of Earth has reached a tipping point in some ways.

"We have not passed a point of no return," Hansen wrote in an e-mail. "We can still roll things back in time - but it is going to require a quick turn in direction."

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Offline Chilachuck

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2007, 05:21:27 PM »
Good. We are in an Inter Glacial Period in an Ice Age. If humans work it right, we may be able to kick the planet out of going back into a Glacial Period.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2007, 05:37:32 PM »
I think I support this global warming stuff myself. I've really never liked cold weather anyway and it has one other really benefically side effect. As I recall from those maps with the red and blue on them if we flooded about 50-75 miles from the coast line and drowned all those folks then we'd not have to worry about anymore liberals getting elected and it might just turn this country back around the way it should be run. Or not, the clowns might just invade us what live further inland and that would be even worse.

I reckon everything has an up and a down side don't it? ;D


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Offline Sourdough

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2007, 08:16:01 PM »
Was reading where Florida, and parts of the coastal states would be under water, when the ocean rises.  There goes my winter vacation spot in Ft Lauderdale, along with parts of Anchorage, the Alutians, parts of the Kenai, and a lot of the islands in Southeastern Alaska.  That the southeast (Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee) would become a lot drier.  And that Alaska would become a very comfortable place to live.  I could live with that, it's expected to be -30 by Saturday night, here in North Pole probably -40.   I don't think this global warming is man made, maybe man helped a little, but definitely not man made.  It's a normal occurring cycle, that has been going on for millions of years.  They have found fossils of palm trees under the permafrost.  That means that Alaska once had a tropical climate. 
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 01:07:43 AM »

Graybeard
I live within 50 miles of the coast you want flooded !!!
Can i move in with you and the Mrs until the next freeze starts ???  :) :-*
Blessings
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 01:40:47 AM »
   If "global warming" is caused by mans emmisions and ALGORE is so concerned about "global warming". WHay does he use so much energy flying all over the world in private jets and caravanning in armoured SUV's? It's pretty cold here in MN and many would welcome a little warmer weather. I'm kinda learry that ALGORE is pushing an agenda behind this "global warming" scam rather that a real problem, and he is definitly not willing to cut his emissions. Now as many of his ilk he wants you and I to reduce our energy consumption while he hogs energy  as he feels he is above us poor minions.
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Offline rex6666

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 09:58:06 AM »
Al Gore is making millions off global warming.
If you rad the oyher side of the coin, we are going through a natural trend.
Some one tell me where did Al learn all this crap, what exactly makes him an expert ;D
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 10:43:00 AM »

Graybeard
I live within 50 miles of the coast you want flooded !!!
Can i move in with you and the Mrs until the next freeze starts ???  :) :-*
Blessings

Let me think about that for a minute Bill..........uh NO!  ;D


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline RaySendero

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 11:32:31 AM »
'The Arctic is screaming' - But my creek ain't rising?
    Ray

Offline deltecs

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2007, 01:02:16 PM »
Most climatologists agree that the earth's temperature has increased about a degree over the last century. The debate is how much of it is due to mankind's activity. Britain's Channel 4 television has just produced "The Great Global Warming Swindle," a documentary that devastates most of the claims made by the environmentalist movement. The scientists interviewed include top climatologists from MIT and other prestigious universities around the world. The documentary hasn't aired in the U.S., but it's available on the Internet. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XttV2C6B8pU)


Among the many findings that dispute environmentalists' claims are: Manmade carbon dioxide emissions are roughly 5 percent of the total; the rest are from natural sources such as volcanoes, dying vegetation and animals. Annually, volcanoes alone produce more carbon dioxide than all of mankind's activities. Oceans are responsible for most greenhouse gases. Contrary to environmentalists' claims, the higher the Earth's temperature, the higher the carbon dioxide levels. In other words, carbon dioxide levels are a product of climate change. Some of the documentary's scientists argue that the greatest influence on the Earth's temperature is our sun's sunspot activity. The bottom line is, the bulk of scientific evidence shows that what we've been told by environmentalists is pure bunk.

The above is from Walter Williams article.  Come on think a moment.  When the volcanl Krakatoa burst it dumped millions of tons of dust and ash into the atmosphere.  The resultant clouds and air borne particles resulted in a mini ice age due sunlight being reflected back into space.  If Global Warming does indeed exist, the air temperature is warmer thus being able to hold more moisture from evaporation and the creation of more clouds.  More clouds would reflect the sun's rays back into space much like the polar ice caps.  This should help cool the trend and we have a modern model to prove it.  As far as the oceans rising with the polar ice melting, it is impossible for them to rise 22'.  This is dependent on all the ice in the world melting and none evaporating into the air.  Also, the figure quoted is from estimates as to the depth of all the ice and glaciers, which is grossly overstated.  I live in Alaska and have seen glaciers receding.  The moraine left is not at a constant depth thoughout the glaciers travel as measured on the face.  There are deep spots and very shallow places where the ice barely covers the surface.  Yet the estimates for the glaciers average depth are taken at the face or in crevasses, some sonic test, and not drilled.  So, anyone could estimate the average glaciers depth with as much accuracy as the experts.  Take Greenland alone in area.  The ice covered area is 677,855 sq miles.  The area of the world's oceans is 139,400,000 sq mi.  Greenland would have to have an average ice depth of 4524' over the entire ice covered surface to increase the oceans depth to 22'.  That is not realistic at all.  That is almost a mile deep of ice across the entire glacier just to get to 22' alone.  There may be places where the ice is a mile deep but across the entire ice mass of Greenland is BS.  The highes spot in Greenland is Gunnbjorn at 12,139'  These are calculated area and volume facts and not estimates.  So much for the rest of the article.  When I find one part to be false, I figure the rest is false to justify the position.  Global Warming as manmade is a myth; it is a scare tatic by greenies to force governments to more earth friendly according to their design.  Any Global Warming naturally occuring cannot be stopped by man so in the perpetration of the myth, environmentalists can have more power over government.  I for one do not buy into it.
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2007, 01:58:43 PM »
The ice melts then it goes somewhere else in another forum either as more ice in the lower part of the world or as more water. I am not really worried though. :o
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Offline flyboy

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 04:11:12 AM »
Global warning IS happening, but is there good science showing man is the cause?  I sincerely doubt it.   I remember an eco article in one or more magazines about 30 years ago ...probably Popular Science... saying another Ice Age is approaching SOON!

Now it is just the opposite. Talk about flip-flops.

It appears that the eco freaks will jump on any bandwagon that is heading their way.  Anything to avoid getting an honest job.


Offline victorcharlie

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2007, 04:25:07 AM »
Okay, maybe it is, maybe it isn't.......

IMO, the real question is what if anything to do about it?

Should we allow the feds to pass more and more restrictive regulations that raise the price of doing business in the US?

Should we grow the government, and if so, by how much?

What about China, India, and the third world?  Continue to let them pump pollution while restricting us?

I don't think any of the above is a good idea........

We've talked about the suspected problem.......

Let's talk about what to do about it!
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2007, 04:30:35 AM »
Actually if you believe what the scientist are saying then global warming will lead to a new ice age. Huh! Yup that's what they are saying global warming will bring on a new ice age. Hey I don't make this stuff up just report what they are saying.


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Offline Brett

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2007, 04:31:30 AM »
Cool,  I always wanted to own beach front property.  ;)
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2007, 05:53:09 AM »
That would put where I hunt beach side again. Wow now that would be weird.
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

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Offline Almtnman

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2007, 06:01:09 AM »
I wish some of that melted ice would flow towards my pond as it's about 7 feet low right now.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2007, 09:52:36 AM »
I think I support this global warming stuff myself. I've really never liked cold weather anyway and it has one other really benefically side effect. As I recall from those maps with the red and blue on them if we flooded about 50-75 miles from the coast line and drowned all those folks then we'd not have to worry about anymore liberals getting elected and it might just turn this country back around the way it should be run. Or not, the clowns might just invade us what live further inland and that would be even worse.

I reckon everything has an up and a down side don't it? ;D

Now this is a twist that I had not considered, where do I sign?  ;D
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2007, 09:58:07 AM »
Yes, I remember in the mid 70's the "pros" were predicting an ice age, boy how things change.
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2007, 11:01:16 AM »
I can use some of that water.
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

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Offline Brett

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2007, 11:36:58 AM »
The fix is really very simple.  Build a bunch of desalination plants around the world.  Convert this excess sea water generated by the melting ice caps to fresh water.  Then pipe the fresh water to drought stricken areas in the South Eastern United States and arid lands in places like Africa, the Mid-East and India for irrigation so that they can grow their own food crops more effectively.   Plus we could use the sea salt, which is lower in sodium and healthier for us, in food processing and for the table.    Where some see only problems others see opportunities.
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Offline oldandslow

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2007, 12:30:13 PM »
I would tend to believe the scientists. I don't believe anything Al Gore says.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2007, 01:59:06 PM »
Bring on Global warming, I could sure use it.  It's 30 below right now in my front yard.  I'm not talking chil factor either.  The mercury has been falling all afternoon like a rock.
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2007, 02:11:49 PM »
38 degrees and heavy rain. Its cold for SC but we need this rain.
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

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Offline nomosendero

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2007, 02:31:17 PM »
Wow, alot can happen in a day!!  We were in FT. Jackson yesterday to pick up my youngest Son who had his Boot Camp Graduation yesterday. It was 80 degrees then if I recall.
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2007, 03:01:10 PM »
Yes it did. I couldn't believe it.
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

Rick

Offline Brett

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2007, 03:29:11 AM »
News Flash!  Global warming not caused by man after all.  Turns out Greenland's icepack is melting because Mother Earth is having a bowel movement.  :o

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316750,00.html
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Offline Chilachuck

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2007, 05:09:22 AM »
Oh, my. I hope that's just a normal hot spot like Iceland or Hawaii and not a Yellowstone type super-volcano.

Offline Sheila

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2007, 03:45:53 PM »
   If "global warming" is caused by mans emmisions and ALGORE is so concerned about "global warming". WHay does he use so much energy flying all over the world in private jets and caravanning in armoured SUV's? It's pretty cold here in MN and many would welcome a little warmer weather. I'm kinda learry that ALGORE is pushing an agenda behind this "global warming" scam rather that a real problem, and he is definitly not willing to cut his emissions. Now as many of his ilk he wants you and I to reduce our energy consumption while he hogs energy  as he feels he is above us poor minions.

   When they say that this so called global warming is caused  by  human  emissions, are   they  talking about  farting?  I will be made if they ban farting. 
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Offline 30-06man

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Re: The Arctic is screaming
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2007, 03:52:00 PM »
There ain't no way to stop it so why all the commotion about it? I mean if I can figure that out then whats Algore and the scientist all worried about ??? That a normal person can figure it out and they cannot? Seems like the over educated dem has lost all his common sense if you ask me.
The sportsman lives his life vicariously. For he secretly yearns to have lived before, in a simpler time. A time when his love for the land, water, fish and wildlife would be more than just part of his life. It would be his state of mind

Rick