Distressing Opinion

[jschance]

I was in a local gun shop this past week, talking to the owner and came away with a very distressing opinion.

We were talking about the results of the new Indiana regulation that allows pistol caliber rifles (PCR) to be used to hunt deer.  Before the season, he was predicting gloom and doom, that a lot of deer were going to be wounded and not killed because of, as he put it, an inadequate firearm.  We debated the subject a bit and I left it as it was.

After the season, I was in there and we were talking about the results of the firearm season.  He said that not a single deer was checked in having been shot with a PCR.  He than said that he heard of several instances of people who reported that they had shot at deer and either didn’t hit them or didn’t anchor them.  My opinion was that the firearm was not to blame and I referenced my success with the smallest allowed PCR, a .357 magnum and the fact that I dropped my deer in it’s tracks.  His response was “well, not everyone can shoot as well as you…” (I’m a regular SASS competitor and shoot lever action rifles pretty often and had spent quite a bit of time pre-season working up a load and sighting in my rifle).  He then expounded on the subject and said he felt that 40% of the deer shot are not recovered (all firearms), talking about some of his customers that he knows never sight in their guns, buy guns an ammo the day before season and generally contribute to the ‘war zone’ that you hear on opening day.

I had a hard time arguing with him, recalling sitting in my stand as daylight breaks, hearing strings of shots that I hope were fired at deer.  I also find deer pretty much every winter that were shot and left (found one buck last year that had it’s head cut off and the body abandoned).  I guess it’s just a bit depressing knowing that there are individuals out there that pretty much fit the stereotype that anti-hunters apply to all of us.

So I guess my question is why don’t these folks respect the sport and the animals they pursue any more than that.

[Graybeard]

I've shot a lot of deer using handguns and straight wall cartridges such as you're referring to here and always found them completely adequate from a handgun so they certainly should be even more so from a rifle.

Now I don't doubt that a lot of hunters go out totally unprepared for success in hunting. They have no clue if their guns are properly sighted in, haven't practiced and might not be able to hit a deer much less in the kill zone at 100 yards but I don't believe 40% of deer hit are lost. Some are for sure but have no clue what percentage.

I can only recall about two deer I've ever run across in the woods shot but lost. One was still alive but with a broken leg that had been shot by another hunter. It might have lived as a broken leg doesn't usually kill a deer. The other was but a skeleton and might or might not have been shot. I picked up the skull and brought it home as a reminder of a rare event finding a dead animal laying in the woods.

[Ranger J]

To start with a pistol cartridge in a rifle is inherently more accurate then the average smooth bore shotgun.  Calm down you shotgun shooters that actually put some time in tuning your gun and practicing with it.  Having originally come from Illinois where the shotgun is the usual weapon I am well acquainted with them.  I knew a lot of hunters and as the man said a lot of them just put a few rounds through the gun a few days before season and paper plate accuracy was good enough for them.  The main reason is that shotguns just are not a lot of fun to sight in!  The pistol caliber rifles on the other hand are a blast to shoot anytime.  They are also cheaper to practice with and practice makes a better shot.  If a deer is shot in the heart/lung area with  one of these bullets it is not going far.  A shot in the gut with a 12 ga. may be lost.  After I moved to Missouri I used my Rem auto with the rifled tube for several years and didn't feel undergunned as the part of Mo I was hunting in resembled the woods of IL.  I had spent a lot of time over the years developing this gun and out to 50 yards it was as accurate as any of my rifles.  I finally switched over to a Ruger Deerfield in .44 mag as the Rem. weighed a ton and as I gt older I got tired of carrying it around.  Think about the stories in hunting magazines about people shooting brown bears with .44s from a pistol.  Not something I would want to do but what made it possible was that these people could shoot.  Which gun do you think you are going to put the most time in practicing with, a .44 or .357 or a 12 grizzle. shotgun?  Yes I do think a lot of deer are poorly shot and go to waste but 40 per cent, I don't think so.

RJ

[beemanbeme]

73.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.   
When folks start flashing these numbers around to reinforce their position, if you'll ask them to quote their source, they'll usually shut up.

[Dave in WV]

Beeman, that's funny !!!  I'll bet it's at least 89.55 % correct. 

[jschance]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the 40% number was something he picked out of the air, but what disturbs me the most is he's a pretty decent guy, also an avid deer hunter and shooter, but in his dealings with the general deer hunting populous has left him with this opinion.

And, don't get me wrong, I am an avid supporter of the PCR issue and had no problem what-so-ever putting venison in the freezer with one and plan to hunt with one next season.

But, the guys dumping their magazines, what exactly did they start shooting at in the first place?  I guess I'm a bit picky, but when I pull the trigger on a deer, I've waited for a good shot, lined the sights up, and squeezed the trigger, seeing the sight picture when recoil starts.

For me, at least, I don't have to shoot a deer....I won't starve if I don't get one (the tag money would probably buy a sufficient supply of bologna), shooting a deer won't prop my ego up one way or another (although I am pretty vain about my ability to make a clean kill when presented with a clear shot), and if doesn't bother me to not fill a tag, the tag is the price of admission to hunt, the killing is just part of it.

[Cheesehead]

I have seen what a 44 lever can do in a timed steel competition and am impressed. I will never understand why some hunters and gun people are against specific types of firearms. Almost anti gun at times.

Cheese

[beemanbeme]

You're absolutely right, Cheese. And that is a weakness that the grabbers try to expoit.  Just recently in here we had a go around where it was felt by some that folks that had tatooes and shaved their heads shouldn't be allowed to own guns but we three piece types should.  And the bench rest hate the hunters and the hunters hate the skeet shooters who hate the water fowlers and no body likes the black gun aficionados. And who cares if they take the pistols if they will leave me alone...................

[Dave in WV]

I had an avid bow hunter tell me he was against handgun hunting because no handgun was an effective killer on deer. My reply was, let me get this straight, a .44 magnum won't kill a deer but an arrow will? He said exactly. I'm not a bow hunter but can say in my experience yes a .44 mag will kill a deer. So will a .357 magnum.

[Castaway]

jschance, I guess you'll just have to ignore what he's saying.  It's a fact you can use pistol calibers and opinion on his part they don't work.  Ignorance is overcome by education and it will take time before the secret gets out a properly loaded 44 Mag or 45 Colt is just a lethal as is a 30-06.  I've taken my share of pigs and deer with my 45 Colt Trapper and a hit in the boiler room never failed to harvest meat cleanly and they dropped just as near where being shot as they would have it shot by anything.  That mentality is on line with some dedicated deer hunters that refuse to take a doe.

[frogjake]

I noticed jschance posted that the gunshop owner stated that the 40% thing was what he thought.  Given the idiots he must deal with on a daily basis I can understand where he is coming from.  Those of us who do not work in the firearms industry can pick who we deal with when it comes to hunting or shooting.  The average gunshop owner has to deal with every person who comes in the door.  I have worked part time in a buddy of mines shop and you would not believe what comes out of some of these peoples mouths.( or maybe you would?)  as far as shooting deer with pistol ammo.......... My all time favorite hunting rifle is an older ruger .44 mag  deerslayer.  I love it.  I is light weight, packs a hell of a punch, and I rarely have to look for the deer I just shot.   I personally wouldn't use that gun out west in the wide open but for in the woods inside 75 yards its more than enough.

[Land_Owner]

...why don’t these folks respect the sport and the animals they pursue any more than that[?]

There are slobs everywhere.  Alternate life lessons start at home with good role models. If everyone took advantage of the pubic education that was available to them from elementary to high school there would be far fewer Welfare recipients (and slobs too) IMO.   

...the gunshop owner stated that the 40% thing was what he thought.  Given the idiots he must deal with on a daily basis I can understand where he is coming from.

I'll second these opinions.  The Gun Shop Owner is far better educated to "pick a number" than I am to pick a nit with him about his "guesstimate".

73.2% of statistics are made up on the spot.

That right there is just plain down to earth good humor.  Glad you mixed it in.