Author Topic: What caliber do I need? (Read 6018 times)

myronman3 · « **Reply #60 on:** December 21, 2007, 10:34:03 AM »

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The overall nod would most likely go to the 7mag for the simple reason of bullet selection.

agreed.

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i would have to order it though.
If you ask about a 7mm-08 around here they answer "7 mag?".

start surfing gun broker. put a wanted add here on g.b.o. i really think you are going to spend alot of extra money for not that much real world gain. really think hard about sticking with the 7-08. i am a 270 man, but these two are so close there really isnt much difference at all between them, save bullet weight choices.
but hey, it is your money and choice in the end. so whatever you do, do what makes you happy.

PartsMan · « **Reply #61 on:** December 21, 2007, 10:48:59 AM »

I will have to buy dies, brass, powder and bullets for a new caliber,
but hey that's what hobbies are about right. New toys.

There is a long time before next deer season.
If I get too anxious I'll go buy a box of factory ammo.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #62 on:** December 21, 2007, 11:00:07 AM »

The 7mm mag really outshines the 270 and 7/08 when it comes to heavy bullets like 160-175 grain. The 270 does not even come close. This is especially true when hand loading to the near maximum pressures. The 175 grain offers total penetration like no standard caliber can, particularly with premium bullets. Like I said before, the 7 Mag offers the larger leap to make a change worth the effort and expense. I have owned a 7 mag for 20 years and have some experiences to back this up.

Cheese

PartsMan · « **Reply #63 on:** December 21, 2007, 11:08:05 AM »

The 7mag looks very good on paper with premium 160g bullets to me.
How is the meat damage with these heavier stronger bullets.
I have heard and read some bad stories.

If I set up a 400yd gun good old Murphy will send a doe underneath my stand.

kudzu · « **Reply #64 on:** December 21, 2007, 01:25:09 PM »

The 7mm mag really outshines the 270

Cheese

With the 270 win yes, however the 270wsm with 140gr and 150 gr. bullets outshines the 7mag with the same.

I love my 270wsm but the nod still goes to the 7mag. The small ''shine'' difference don't equal the 7mags bullet selection and heavier bullet capabilities.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #65 on:** December 21, 2007, 02:23:42 PM »

Quote from: PartsMan on December 21, 2007, 11:08:05 AM

The 7mag looks very good on paper with premium 160g bullets to me.
How is the meat damage with these heavier stronger bullets.
I have heard and read some bad stories.

If I set up a 400yd gun good old Murphy will send a doe underneath my stand.

The meat damage with a 160 grain Partition or Barnes is minimal as would be true with any heavily constructed bullet designed for penetration. The same would be true with the 175 grain bullets.

Cheese

burntmuch · « **Reply #66 on:** December 21, 2007, 03:12:58 PM »

Ive taken deer from right under the tree to 150 yards with 160nosler partitions. Never found a bullet, minimal meat damage. But im a old bow hunter, I aim for behind the shoulder out of habit. So in a rib out a rib

Cheesehead · « **Reply #67 on:** December 21, 2007, 04:06:58 PM »

I just looked at the ballistics of the 270 wsm and they are impressive. Remington has a ballistics comparison chart on their web site that is very useful. While I was there I looked for the flattest shooting cartridges. At a 250 yard zero the 300 ultra mag is the winner with the 7mm ultra mag a very close second. The 300 ultra only drops 11.2 inches at 400 yards with the 250 zero and the 7mm ultra only drops 11.4. These are extreme cartridges and not for the recoil shy. The 7mm Rem mag drops 13 inches at 400 with a 250 zero. I would still choose the 7mm rem since it is so common but the other rounds mentioned are interesting considerations.

Cheese

DalesCarpentry · « **Reply #68 on:** December 21, 2007, 04:25:08 PM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on December 21, 2007, 04:06:58 PM

I just looked at the ballistics of the 270 wsm and they are impressive. Remington has a ballistics comparison chart on their web site that is very useful. While I was there I looked for the flattest shooting cartridges. At a 250 yard zero the 300 ultra mag is the winner with the 7mm ultra mag a very close second. The 300 ultra only drops 11.2 inches at 400 yards with the 250 zero and the 7mm ultra only drops 11.4. These are extreme cartridges and not for the recoil shy. The 7mm Rem mag drops 13 inches at 400 with a 250 zero. I would still choose the 7mm rem since it is so common but the other rounds mentioned are interesting considerations.

Cheese

I have been reading ballistic charts for a couple years now in hopes to find my ultimate big game round. I really think the 300 Ultra Mag is it. I believe you could kill anything that walks the face of the Earth with it. The true up side to this round is you can load it down to 30-06 or 30-30 levels. This way if you ever want to go hunting for really BIG game you have the rifle to do it. Just my thoughts. I may end up with a Remington 700 300 RUM. with in the next year or so. Dale

nomosendero · « **Reply #69 on:** December 21, 2007, 04:50:50 PM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on December 21, 2007, 11:00:07 AM

The 7mm mag really outshines the 270 and 7/08 when it comes to heavy bullets like 160-175 grain. The 270 does not even come close. This is especially true when hand loading to the near maximum pressures. The 175 grain offers total penetration like no standard caliber can, particularly with premium bullets. Like I said before, the 7 Mag offers the larger leap to make a change worth the effort and expense. I have owned a 7 mag for 20 years and have some experiences to back this up.

Cheese

Actually the 270 comes quite close when you have a 400 yard limit. The difference in trajectory & wind drift is not that great with a 270 bullet like the 140 gr. Accubond with a BC of .496, not in trajectory & wind drift at that yardage. It would be just as easy to hit with one as the other as long as you know the range(&you should or not shoot).The energy advantage would favor the 7Mag, but that is of zero relevance if Deer are the upper limit of what you are shooting. We are either serious about the 400+ yardage & Deer sized game as upper limits or we are not. Now, if you want to change the max range to 500-600 yards, then the 7mag pulls away by a sizeable amt.. I know a little about the 7 mag too, I hunted everything from Groundhogs to Deer for about 10 years & I did so with 3 different 7 mags. I traded them off when I decided the 300mags suited me a little better since I could have the same basic wind drift & traj. as a 7 with a good deal more energy at those times when I wanted more than '06 & 270 rounds.

However, if you WANT to use a 7mm Mag, then why not, that's why I had it on the list too. The difference in cost of components , amt. of powder, etc. is not important at all if it isn't important to you. And yes, the 160 is fine.

NONYA · « **Reply #70 on:** December 21, 2007, 07:46:08 PM »

There is no way to go wrong with the 7 mag,does it all.

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #71 on:** December 22, 2007, 04:23:42 AM »

Get a 35 Whelen and have fun dumping Deer @ long Range with a Pumpkin Thrower

beemanbeme · « **Reply #72 on:** December 22, 2007, 05:48:47 AM »

Where the supposed meat damage from magnums comes from is from folks using a totally inappropriate (read small) bullet, maybe even a hollowpoint, and jacking it up to warp speed to impress the folks around the water cooler that don't hunt.
I've shot antelope thru elk with a 7mag and 160s and the meat damage was no different than if I had been using a .270. The animals, of course, were deader.

nomosendero · « **Reply #73 on:** December 22, 2007, 09:59:40 AM »

Quote from: Mckie Hollow on December 22, 2007, 04:23:42 AM

Get a 35 Whelen and have fun dumping Deer @ long Range with a Pumpkin Thrower

Why?

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #74 on:** December 22, 2007, 12:33:55 PM »

Why Not? It's very capable out to 300yds. My thoughts of the original Post was either a 25 or 35 caliber to fulfilll the gap. A 25-06 was My 2nd. thought

Mac11700 · « **Reply #75 on:** December 22, 2007, 02:43:40 PM »

Quote from: Mckie Hollow on December 22, 2007, 12:33:55 PM

Why Not? It's very capable out to 300yds. My thoughts of the original Post was either a 25 or 35 caliber to fulfilll the gap. A 25-06 was My 2nd. thought

Your right...it is very capable out to 300 yards and a bit further...However...the ranges are 400 PLUS...Now...kick it up a notch with the Whelen Improved...I'd say 400 yards shouldn't be a problem at all...Not nearly as fast & flat as the rest...but it certainly isn't too shabby...

If I had to choose a long range 270 round...even though I think the 270 WSM is a very good cartridge...I would opt for the 270 Weatherby instead...for factory...and would look long and hard at what a 270 Kirby Magnum will do for you for a custom rig...

Mac

nomosendero · « **Reply #76 on:** December 22, 2007, 04:36:52 PM »

Quote from: Mckie Hollow on December 22, 2007, 12:33:55 PM

Why Not? It's very capable out to 300yds. My thoughts of the original Post was either a 25 or 35 caliber to fulfilll the gap. A 25-06 was My 2nd. thought

Like Mac said, with the 35W, 300yds is one thing & 400 is quite another. One thing I asked Parts Man is what max. range he wanted to be proficient in, he replied 400 yards which would not make the 35W an impossible choice, but a poor one & the second thing I asked is what
would be the biggest animal he would shoot & he replied Deer. The 35W. is fine for Deer & great for Bear, Hogs, Elk etc., but not a logical choice for a hunter who shoots Deer as his biggest animal. These 2 factors would make the 35W. very inferior to the 3 270's mentioned, a 7mm
Mag & others.

Yea Mac, the 270Allen Mag. is pure poison to the dedicated hunter/wildcatter interested in long range shooting.

700xcr · « **Reply #77 on:** December 22, 2007, 07:56:56 PM »

Here is a mule deer doe taken with my Remington model 700xcr in 270wsm. Scope is a Burris Euro-Diamond 2.2x10x44mm with the Ballistic Plex retical. Using factory Winchester 150gr. Power Point ammo. Chronographed 3200fps. out of my gun. Shot was a lasered 298yds. This cartridge Whacks them hard. Going to start to reload for it now sense hunting season is over. Going to reload some Berger 150gr. VLD bullets that have a 0.545 BC. Here are the photos.
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg178/700xcr/1209070959-00-01.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg178/700xcr/1209071000-00.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg178/700xcr/1209071040-01.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg178/700xcr/1209071041-00.jpg
http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg178/700xcr/1209071510-00.jpg

PartsMan · « **Reply #78 on:** December 24, 2007, 06:53:48 AM »

270\280 or 7mag would both do fine.
It's just an issue of recoil vs ballistics.

I won't be getting a 300 ultra mag for deer.

burntmuch · « **Reply #79 on:** December 24, 2007, 07:25:53 AM »

You get yourself a bolt with some nice wood on it. recoil wont be too bad on those. 270 280 7mag

nomosendero · « **Reply #80 on:** December 24, 2007, 09:22:16 AM »

Quote from: PartsMan on December 24, 2007, 06:53:48 AM

270\280 or 7mag would both do fine.
It's just an issue of recoil vs ballistics.

I won't be getting a 300 ultra mag for deer.

You are doing well.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #81 on:** December 24, 2007, 12:00:38 PM »

Choose the ballistic champion, the 7mm Remington Magnum. It bests the other candidates in all categories of comparison, speaking of the 280 and 270 Win. I have heard it for years, " the 270 is just as good as the 7 mag". It is not true. I have heard it is close, but close does not count. Second or third place is just that, not as good.

Cheese

nomosendero · « **Reply #82 on:** December 24, 2007, 01:15:49 PM »

Maybe in that case, we should go with the 7STW, why bother with a 7mag? It outclasses the 7mag as much as the 7mag does the 270 or 280.

But on the other hand we could look at what the shooter wants to accomplish, 400 yards max & no animal bigger than a Deer & then we would realize that they all will do the job just fine. Then it is more a matter of weight, length barrel, size of scope, etc. These factors will help him determine since anyone with experience would know that all 3 will do well.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #83 on:** December 24, 2007, 03:37:11 PM »

My experience tells me, more energy equals more hydrostatic shock equals more terminal performance equals shorter blood trails or no blood trail at all, within the parameters of 270, 280 and 7mm Remington Magnum. I am sure of this.

Cheese

nomosendero · « **Reply #84 on:** December 24, 2007, 04:27:57 PM »

Tell it to the Mule Deer I shot in WY this year at 410 yards. Also tell it to dozens of Whitetails/Mule Deer? Antelope I have shot at various ranges with a 25-06 from a few yards away to well over 400 yards. BTW, I shot dozens of Whitetails with the three 7 Mags I have used & parted company with. Nothing wrongwith the 7, I just moved on to the 300, which I like better for bigger animals or animals at longer range, but 400 yards, give me a break! One more time, if we were talking 500-600 yards then the retained energy could help & the extra velocity would cause the 7mm bullet to open up better at those longer ranges. A 130 or 140 gr 270 bullet with a good BC has more than enough vel. to open up well at 500 yards, much less 400 yards & ditto for the 280 & "experience has taught me that instead of hydrostatic shock read out of a Weaherby brochure. When an animal gets a large wound channel through & through & the lungs collaspe, hydrostatic shock conversations are not a very relevant issue.

Anyone who feels that a 7mag is needed to bring down a Whitetail at 400 yards & a 270, 280 or a bunch of other rounds is lacking at that yardage may have 7mag "experience", but he sure doesn't have 280 or 270 experience. If that were true then you could not
hunt Elk with a 280 or 30-06 at all I guess & probably not over 200 yards with a 7mm Mag. Deer hunting with a 6.X55 would have to be under 200 yards I guess & 257 Roberts @ 100 yards or less & no 243 at any range. Elk could only be shot at 400 yards with a 338-378 or bigger I guess.

Nay, I believe it boils down to which one Parts Man wants, What he wants to gun the weigh, barrel length & other issues & make sure he gets an accurate one & good optics. To the 7 mag users out there, I like the round a bunch & the fact I don't use one now is no biggie, I just don't have an application for one that is not covered better by something else. I have thought about getting a 7STW built for 140 grain bullets or a a 7RUM for 160 gr. bullets. I have ruled out the RUM as it is a marginal edge over the 7STW, but I have found some good info from friends shooting the STW with a 160Accubond. This would give me a little that my 300 doesn't & would be something neat to play with. But then again that .277Allen Mag. with a 140Acc @ 3,500-3,600 would be wicked, oh well!!

kudzu · « **Reply #85 on:** December 24, 2007, 05:35:57 PM »

Partsman, Just go and get ya one of them new rem 700 Boone and Crockets in either a 7mag or 270 wsm. You can start the scope debate on another thread.

AND HURRY UP, I NEED TO KNOW HOW IT SHOOTS

Cheesehead · « **Reply #86 on:** December 24, 2007, 05:46:34 PM »

So... ft/lbs of energy is not a factor at all, at any range, or just at 400 yards?

Cheese

nomosendero · « **Reply #87 on:** December 24, 2007, 05:57:27 PM »

Quote from: Cheesehead on December 24, 2007, 05:46:34 PM

So... ft/lbs of energy is not a factor at all, at any range, or just at 400 yards?

Cheese

It's not a factor when both cartridges have more than enough, no need to have to keep saying this. By your logic then you would have to conclude a 300 would have to be a better Deer cartridge at 400 yards than the 7mm Mag because it has more foot pounds of energy & the 300 Wea. better & the 300RUM better & the 340 Wea still better, on up the line & the 50BMG about the best going.

So many will do great, 270,280,270WSM,7mag,264 & some lighter ones as well, such as 25-06, 257Roy, yada yada. If you feel otherwise, no problem.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #88 on:** December 24, 2007, 07:39:47 PM »

It doesn't take a massive amount of hydraulic shock to kill a whitetail..It doesn't hurt...but just isn't needed all the time...A permanent wound channel of sufficient size thru the vitals will kill a whitetail quickly enough...in most cases...not all mind you...but in most...and I have seen magnum hit deer at 300 yards run a long ways...just as I have seen the same with standard calibers...but if you have both entry hole...and exit hole...you should have a good blood trail to follow...If your wanting to anchor them on the spot every time...your looking at having to take a CNS hit to do this...or thru both shoulders and at 400 yards plus...trying a CNS shot is a gamble I certainly do not recommend..and taking both shoulders will doable...is still a gamble too...Shooting long range teaches most us to make the hits in the vitals at these distances...under 400 I always try to catch an off shoulder behind the vitals...Will the standard calibers work...sure they will...Will they kill deer at these distances...Yup...are they as fast and flat as the others...nope...Do the standard calibers have more wind drift and drop than those faster cartridges...yup...they sure do...This is where the faster magnums give the biggest edge...wind drift and drop...and unless your shooting some where the wind doesn't blow...can make a real big difference...Many folks are proficient with them...but they have put in the time effort & money to become that way...I know it hasn't been exactly cheap for me by no means ...400 yards is the beginning of what I consider long range...and to some...400 yards is the furthest they will ever shoot...Do we need magnums for 400 yards...no...not really...with plenty of practice doping the wind...and a good range finder many can become proficient at it...But I can say...once you gotten good at 400 yards...is this the furthest you will ever shoot at game...if it is...then stick with the regular cartridges and save some money...if it isn't...then look elsewhere...Start looking at the ballistic programs at 400 yards and beyond...and compare the various rounds...this is where cartridges like the 270 Allen magnum shine...400 yards to the 270 AM is like shooting 50 with the standard 270...Increase the velocities like it does for the 270 in a 7mm or a 30 cal...with similar sectional densities...and you will find out just how far is feasible for them...then you gotta figure out if it is feasible for you...recoil & expense...You have to have an idea of just how far you plan on shooting...so you can determine what cartridge you should be researching... provided of course your wanting to cover all the bases that is...If you do really plan on getting into LRH...then one of these will help you immensely..http://www.nkhome.com/ww/kestrelchart.html...I know it's another tool to learn to use...but they are simple in operation...and will help you know what the actual wind speed is where you are at...not guess...

Mac

Cheesehead · « **Reply #89 on:** December 25, 2007, 02:42:52 AM »

Whats the 50 BMG got to do with this? I thought we were comparing the 270 Win And the 7mm Remington Magnum as caliber options for Partsman. I agree, the 270 is very good, but the 7mm Remington Magnum is better at all ranges. I just can not disregard some numbers as irrelevant, as if they do not exist.

Cheese