Author Topic: .45-70 "Forager" shotshells vs. rifling (Read 1843 times)

nomadichuntergatherer · « **on:** December 18, 2007, 08:40:18 PM »

I'm too broke to send off my new Buffalo Classic for a shotgun barrel, and there's not too much quail and squirrel season left anyhow. Thus I was thinking of building up a "forager" shotshell round. I know it'll pattern badly, but my main worry is about the shot damaging what is to be my primary deer rifle and long-range black powder cartridge plinker. Any ideas what #8 lead shot would do to my rifling?

henry1 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2007, 08:59:26 PM »

Well, i cant answer your ? but it makes me think.(Ya i know, Scarry!) Anyways, a long time ago my granddad gave me a magazine he had read (he gives me all his old ones) and in it they talked about loading the 45/70 up with different loads similar to what your talking about. I remember the pics they had of em. there was cutaways of each. One was all birdshot. and the other had two or three roundballs in it. I never thought much of it cause it seemed kinda dangerous to me. I mean three roundballs ontop of a bunch of powder? That just sounds sick. But anyways, I am sorry that i cant help you but i am glad that you posted this ? because I have often wondered the same too after seeing those pics in the mag. So, thank you and again, Im sorry.
Hank.

zasxcd · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2007, 11:35:31 PM »

If you stick to real lead shot (none of this "steel" shot!!!) you should have no problems whatsoever. Steel is a LOT harder than lead. You may have issues such as cleaning the residue from your wadding or powder out of the barrel, but that should be it. Leading should not be a problem, unless you insist on setting velocity records with your reloads.

tn_junk · « **Reply #3 on:** December 18, 2007, 11:49:00 PM »

I did much the same thing in my .50 Muzzleloader. Loaded an ounce of #5 shot over 75 grains of Pyrodex (using assorted wads to hold everything together). The rifling was pretty much gone from my barrel anyway so I didn't care.
It patterned about like you would expect, real open spread at 15 yards. Much wider pattern than a Improved Cylinder 20 gauge, which I compared it to. I fired 10 or 12 shots just messing around and I am sure it didn't hurt my barrel any.
You're gonna hafta get real close or real lucky to kill anything if it patterns like my gun.

alan

knight0334 · « **Reply #4 on:** December 19, 2007, 03:02:07 AM »

Disclaimer: I assume NO responsibility or liability for any misuse, accidents or any other unfortunate incidences resulting from the use of the information I provide below. Robert Preston - knight0334 12/19/07

===============

So long as lead shot is used - its perfectly safe.

You can load up a 45-70 casing similar to a .410 shotgun load.

Find a proper powder for 410 shotguns (will probably be a pistol powder). You will need an under pellet wad/cup and an over pellet wad. The over pellet wad will need to be waxed or glued in.

The wads will have to be custom made seeing how 410 cups and wads are .410"(+/-). You can use an old deprimed 45-70 casing to punch out felt or cardboard wads, pushing out wads with a rod through the primer hole. With the 45-70 casing being about 1/2" shorter than the .410's, you wont have enough room to use full length wads or cups.

1. resize and prime a clean casing
2. insert proper powder charge
3. place your bottom wad against the powder.
4. insert a similar .410 load of lead pellets, you might be able add a few grains of pellets being larger in diameter. leave enough room for the over pellet wad with enough room on top of it to wax or glue the wad in and be flush with mouth of casing. 410 loads are about 1/2oz or so(218.75gr).

Don't go crazy and load up some "magnums" with the first few loads, start out light and work your way up. Keep in mind, there wont be any choke and the rifling will help spread the shot around.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2007, 04:00:58 AM »

I've played around a bit with handloading shotshells for the .444 Marlin, 45/70 and for .45 Colt revolvers. You can load the 45/70 to be the ballistic equal of a .410 shotgun but from a rifled bore the pattern is useless beyound 15 FEET! I'd borrow a shotgun for this season and save my pennies for something better next season.

PartsMan · « **Reply #6 on:** December 19, 2007, 04:58:47 AM »

Are you sure a Pardner and a box of shells wouldn't be cheaper than the components?
Used ones go for very little in pawn shops here.

JerryKo · « **Reply #7 on:** December 19, 2007, 05:01:35 AM »

Mike Venturino did a nice article in Hand Loader Mag on the 45lc and bird shot. He liked the numer 12 for the shot (more in the little space) and gas checks as the wads. Gas checks were placed over powder in the correct position cup up, and then shot then upside down gas check followed by roll crimp. I'm sure #8 shot would work ok in 45/70 since it is so much longer than 45lc. Don't know about powder though. Its been over a year ago I read the article. Now he was using a pistol and was destroying potatoes at very close ranges. Snake encounter ranges. I can only assume a longer barrel may hold the "pattern a little better. It will not harm the barrel, but you may have some heavy fouling from the soft lead shot bouncing off the rifiling. But it should clean up ok with a brass brush and some solvent.

Keep us posted,

JerryKo

handirifle · « **Reply #8 on:** December 19, 2007, 06:53:16 AM »

I tried it a couple years back with my 32" barreled BC. Not sure if the 22" would do better or not, but let me put it this way. My 357 Mag revolver and 4" barrel put more shot on a 24 X 24" paper than the BC did, at 5yds (that's no joke). I was using the full load from a 3" 410 shell. I think 3 shots of the 45-70 put about 10 pellets on paper. The 357 (one shot) put about 10 pellets in the 10" circle in the middle.

By the time it all got out of the barrel, the rifling had it spinning so fast, you were safer in front of it than beside it.

I'd suggest, if you try it, to NOT use a wad cup, but rather a paper wad over powder and shot. Preferably the top wad smaller than bore dia. Less chance of it spinning the shot.

nomadichuntergatherer · « **Reply #9 on:** December 19, 2007, 07:31:15 AM »

>Are you sure a Pardner and a box of shells wouldn't be cheaper than the components?
>Used ones go for very little in pawn shops here.

I'm in an odd situation. Of course I own more than enough shotgun for my needs -- my beat-up old
Savage 311 has served me for years -- but I live in staff housing with a bunch of hippies and trustafarians, so for their own comfort I compromised down to one single-shot rifle while I'm there.

PartsMan · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2007, 07:33:59 AM »

That's terrible!
And they say this is a free country.

nomadichuntergatherer · « **Reply #11 on:** December 19, 2007, 07:55:23 AM »

>And they say this is a free country.

I'm in California, where the gun laws are notoriously heinous, but that's not the deal here at all. While it's not an optimal situation, I compromise, they compromise. They don't smoke pot in the house, I don't reload or clean guns in the house. They don't have a bunch of their grungy friends living on the couches, I don't have a closet full of guns. They don't look in the bottom of my foot locker, they don't see a gun that really will scare them -- I love my N.E.F.s, but they aren't optimal for home defense either.

mrloring · « **Reply #12 on:** December 19, 2007, 09:02:23 AM »

I have loaded up 357 mag, 38 special, and 32 S&W long shot shells. I used #9 shot in all of my loads (I can't find any #12 locally). I started with the minimum load for the lightest lead bullet data my reloading manual had. The shot will weigh slightly less than the lead bullet and will provide less resistance than the bullet so it will not have any pressure issues. I use a file folder to cut out wads, one between the shot and the powder and one one top of the shot. The top wad gets glued in with white elmers glue. A short piece of dowel rod will help in setting the over powder wad. I cut the wads with an old case that I sharpen with my chamfer tool. I have shot sparrows at 15-20 feet with the 357 loads. I mainly use them for snake loads when we go to deer camp in the warmer months.

nomadichuntergatherer · « **Reply #13 on:** December 19, 2007, 01:39:44 PM »

>and the other had two or three roundballs in it. I never thought much of it cause it seemed kinda >dangerous to me. I mean three roundballs ontop of a bunch of powder? That just sounds sick.

It doesn't sound too dangerous to me . . . and it doesn't really sound sick compared to, say, what a .270 might do to a critter. My only question is simply: why? Might have some defense application out of a pistol, but what are three round balls going to do that a slug won't?

nomadichuntergatherer · « **Reply #14 on:** December 19, 2007, 01:44:42 PM »

If I can get 20 feet out of this thing, it'll do for the gray squirrels.

henry1 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 19, 2007, 02:09:59 PM »

Well i was just saying that it sounds like there could possibly be a pressure danger with 3 round balls on top of the powder, It would be "sick" if the thing blew up in sombodys face.
just my .02$.
Hank.

lrrice · « **Reply #16 on:** December 19, 2007, 02:16:25 PM »

Have you thought of using the speer shot cups? I use them to make snake shot for my 357 and 45 colt pistols. They are a little plastic capsule that you fill with shot then load like a bullet. They work for a short distance. The 45 colt ones would probably work ok, and being a bit small, the rifling may not spin them as much. You want to keep them pretty slow so you don't put a bunch of melted plastic in your bore. The down side is they don't hold very much shot. Also, you might try here, www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html , lots of good info for loading brass 410 shells that would translate over to loading for your 45-70.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #17 on:** December 19, 2007, 02:32:52 PM »

I once had a .54 Cal Harper's Ferry pistol, a muzzleloading flintlock. I experimented using once-fired .54cal sabots picked up at the range to hold shot, it was a smoothbore, so no rifling to spin the shot column, but it held an effective pattern for grouse to about 15-20' with #9 shot. The same could be done with appropriately sized.45cal sabots loaded in a .45-70 case as an overpowder wad, then just use an overshot card to keep the shot in the case, you could seal it with wax if you wanted something a little more durable.

Tim

Here's some more ideas...

http://www.mikeswillowlake.com/45-70_fun.htm

henry1 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 19, 2007, 05:00:20 PM »

Tim, That sounds like a good idea! I think someone with more time than i have should try it out and let us know how it does. !!!

trotterlg · « **Reply #19 on:** December 19, 2007, 05:54:11 PM »

Everyone worries about the shot bouncing off the rifleing, I doubt that happens any at all, the shot goes down the barrel in one big lump, like a bullet made of packed together shot, it only opens up when it exits the barrel, I bet if you recovered it all you would find the outside pellets had rifleing engraved on them. Larry

dscp · « **Reply #20 on:** December 19, 2007, 06:28:54 PM »

;

HOWDY ! PLEASE ALLOW FOR ANOTHER OLD CODGER ! IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS IS A RE-VISIT TO WHAT GENERAL YELLOW-HAIR (CUSTARD) WANTED FOR HIS TROOPS FOR PRAIRIE RABBIT AND CHICKENS FOR SUPPER . HE BELIEVED THAT THE MEN NEEDED FRESH MEAT AT SUPPER . HAD SOME LOADED WITH A WOODEN CAPSULE AND #11 SIZE SHOT .
NOW AS TO THE PROBLEM AT HAND . . . THOMPSON CENTER USED TO SELL EMPTY SHOT CAPSULES FOR 45 COLT AND 44 MAG . THEY WOULD NEVER WORK IN A REVOLVER AS THEY ARE WAY TOO LONG . BUT IN A BREAK ACTION OR A FALLING BLOCK IT SHOULD BE NO PROBLEM . THEY WILL HOLD MUCH MORE SHOT THAN THE SPEER CAPS ( I HAVE USED BOTH ) . AND I AGREE THAT REAL LEAD SHOT WILL NEVER HURT YOUR BARREL .
I HOPE THAT THIS WILL HELP AND HAVE A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS !
dscp