God Bless America?

[ironglow]

  TM7;

   The abortion culture is being refuted daily..but I suppose not everywhere..  Sometimes local churches will preach to local congregations....and the culture 50 miles deep anywhere along the east and west coastlines seems to be quite liberal (IMO). Still, if the local pastor doesn'tpreach the word faithfully and as exactly as he can, he will just have to answer for that later.
  I have an old Army buddy in Vermont that I visit every few years; he is from an "old line" Vermont family..his major complaint is that liberals have moved into Vermont from the big cities and are ruining the atmosphere and traditional culture...LOL
  Back to the Christian question: There is a great deal of difference between evangelical Christians and the general "mainline"..don't rock the boat denominations, many of which will preach only the "social gospel"..rarely any of the hard truths.
  Jesus said; "They will hate you because they first hated me."

   Sometimes the total message is not all "sweetness and light"..

   Rescue of pre-born people is carried on regularly..Jerry Falwell's ministry, including liberty U. have a program that will care for expectant, unwed mothers and find placement or parenting help for the women. I only mention that as one of many, but one that may be familiar.
  Catholic charities have run adoption agencies for decades..even though Massachusetts has shut them out..and thereby missed hundreds of adoptions that children could have enjoyed....but that is just Massachusetts...what can we expect ?
   
  if a pregnant girl needs help, she could go to almost any evangelical church and they would likely help her or find help for her..

    Many ministries did print leaflets letting people know just how their representatives have voted on certain issues..but last time I looked, ACLU and the abortion industry were both trying to shut down the practice. The leaflets were not telling anyone HOW to vote, nor were they endorsing anyone..just reviewing which way they voted.
    I guess having to face up to how they voted is just too much for some politicians..

   Although i participated in a couple sign carrying protests, I wasn't convinced that a bunch of pro-life/pro-abort folks standing around glaring or shouting at each other ever changed anyone's mind. I could also see by some meeting I attended, that certain clergy were just using the demos for a springboard to "greater' things; and sure enough, they ended up working with "more important' groups in Washington DC. If I mentioned their names, anybody that has watched the national debate about it would recognize those names. I do and I'm not thrilled by it !

   Perhaps you don't see so much of this activity is because as I said..protests & confrontation helps little . More important is evangelization (gentle persuasion) and electing national candidates to office that are likely to get Supreme court justices with conscience & compassion appointed to the bench..
    Basically the same thing we strive for as gun owners..a belief in the dignity of the individual.
 
   Note: I would expect that there wouldn't be near as much pro-life activity in the more liberal areas..and as you said, their batteries may be run down !
   They may need a recharge..we call that REVIVAL...

[Dee]

I have given much thought about this issue over the years, and more recently since I started this thread. It is truly amazing that ANYONE can "ponder" the right and wrong of abortion when they themselves have children. Or if their mother had, had an abortion, think of the generations LOST, because of it. At the tune of 48,000,000 and counting, think of the future generations of families that our government sponsored execution clinics have wiped off the face of the earth, with almost NO attention being brought to the public at large.
Folks will sit around and say; I just can't make up my mind about whether we should allow abortion, and yet watch HOURS AND HOURS of news footage on a professional football player whom destroyed a "few" pit bull dogs and went to the PEN, and those same folks will say; He got what he deserved.

To paraphrase their belief system they will basically say; Vick SHOULD HAVE went to the Penitentiary for killing those dogs, but I can't make up my mind if it's right or wrong to kill babies. This mentality BAFFELS me, especially when some whom do so claim God's Salvation, and are supposed, or claimed Christians.
To me at least, this is THEM, putting more value on a dog, than a human. Have you EVER, been able to look at a helpless, innocent baby, and understood how ANYONE could be undecided on whether it would be acceptable to tear (with out anesthetic by the way) this child to pieces, for the sake of convenience? This has never been a confusing issue for me. Look how far we have come. It seems our conscience has either died or, is dieing. JMO(

[ironglow]

  Amen Dee ! We as a culture, protect whales, baby seals, fighting dogs and at least have a "closed season" on most game animals....but there is NO closed season on little Johnny or Julie while they are in the womb..supposedly under "mother's care". ??
    I reject the "when does life begin ? " question that we get from some folks ... Simply because they are often the ones that say "life really begins when a child takes his/her first breath", Yet they are the same people that agree with a $10,000 dollar fine for breaking an eagle's egg !
   
  Now, before some loonie leftist accuses me of it, I am not in favor of breaking eagle's eggs ! I also believe that the $10,000 fine for killing a turkey buzzard should at least be doubled against anyone that WILLINGLY kills a pre-born boy or girl... or are turkey buzzards more precious to us ? !
   
   Europeans accuse us of being "barbaric", because some of our states are so"backwards" that they still execute serial killers, torture murderers etc..and do not interfere with the execution of such as Saddam Hussein ! Yet these same "enlightened Europeans" continue to exterminate good 2/3 of THEIR OWN offspring, before they are born,
 even though that means they are slowly turning their own countries over to the Muslim immmigrants..who do not kill their own young...

   A little food for thought: When God's chosen people Israel, strayed from what they KNEW was right, God used the Baal worshipping Philistines and Amorites,Jebusites etc. to punish Israel !...
   
    Then these same Europeans condem a place such as Texas, that allows one to defend his or his neighbors life and property...better we kill the most innocent among us
  and let the most evil go free !
    ...Another good case of "liberal logic".

  We do however, usually jail for life, most mass killers..unless that person has killed 5 of her own offspring ...

    All these are signs of a very sick sand declining society. Historically, only certain weak people in societies that had been under a long, hard seige were found guilty of
  devouring their own young in order to comfort themselves; and they were roundly ostraicized by their neighbors for it ! Today's decadence calls such acts..a woman's choice,
  courageous, and offers many more praises for it..

  All this has come about just since much of this nation has turned it's back upon it's God !  Someday we will find as a nation (as will many other nations) that GOD WILL EXECUTE JUDGEMENT !

     "The millstones of God may grind slowly...but they grind exceedingly fine !"

 

[Dee]

ironglow in response to this last post of yours. I wish I'd said that. This country is in trouble morally and doesn't even know it will be it's demise, just as it was the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Grecian, and the Roman Empires. All four of these empires were used by God himself, to punish Israel and "each other" for their disobedience and disregard of God.

[Graybeard]

I don't fit your mould. I have not yet decided when life begins but am not one who believes any of those things you say all such folks believe either. Clearly there is a point some time between conception or fertilization of the egg and birth when life is clearly that of a human. I guess I'm just not sure I agree with your concepts of when that is. Once that is human it is clearly improper to kill that human. On that I fully agree. I just don't think I can accept that the moment of conception is that time at this point.

But clearly I'm not one who feels as you think any such person does. It would seem too many wish to peg folks into little round holes even if they are really square pegs. Not everyone fits so neatly into your pigeon holes and your view of the world is seen only thru foggy lens.

Almost certainly you are more concerned about the welfare of animals and bird's eggs and such than am I which only goes to show that not everyone fits neatly into your ideas of the rest of us. It's difficult to paint a fine piece of art when using a 4" paint brush.

[Dee]

I'm not sure whom your addressing GB, but I assume (yes I know what that word can cause) it is me. As for the animal issue, perhaps you misunderstood me. I view animals as livestock for the most part, and the human as something sacred in God's eyes. I place my belief of the moment of conception on the fact that God clearly states that he knew us BEFORE, we were in the womb, and WHILE we were in the womb, and can further use the womb as evidence, in the fact that when Mary went to see here cousin, and announced she was pregnant with Christ that her cousin's child (John the Baptist) whom was also, still in the womb, lept with joy at the announcement. This to me would be a strong indication that a soul is a soul, whether it be born, naturally or "torn from the womb" shortly before birth, for a matter of selfish convenience.
I look at my two now grown sons, and one daughter, and my eight grandchildren, and cannot conceive in my mind, the thought of dismemberment of any of them for convenience sake, and that is after all what we are talking about isn't it? The fate of a child being conceived into a family that doesn't want it, verses one that does?
The child has no say in the matter, whether it be "out in the open" so to speak, or waiting for the right moment. I am not condemning you or anyone for you indecision on the issue. I'm simply stating, I don 't understand it, given the facts as "I" personally believe them to be. I am not advocating compliance to my belief, as God is as always, the final judge on all issues.
 

[Graybeard]

To you Dee and to the others making similar comments as well. I wasn't singling out anyone in particular as a few of you have made somewhat similar comments.

While I can see your point I interpret the same thing differently than you. GOD is all knowing and therefore knew all that would happen long before it did to include of course those who will not be born due to abortions and other reasons. That he knew this from before the beginning of time does not to me at least indicate the same thing it does to you.

On the matter of souls perhaps (not saying this as a statement of fact mind you) all souls were from the beginning and will be until the end. Perhaps souls exist outside the body both before and after the body and that is why/how GOD knew them before they were in the womb. Perhaps at some point be it at conception or some time later prior to actual birth GOD infuses each with a soul and prior to that they have none. If that were the case and again I'm NOT saying it definitely is as I don't know but if it's the case then at that moment life would begin as I see it.

Should GOD ever chose to enlighten me as to when that moment is then I'd KNOW beyond all shadow of a doubt. Until such time as he sees fit in his wisdom to enlighten me I'll not know and can only ponder on the matter. I'm much less incline than some to assume I know the hearth and mind of GOD and therefore ascribe to him things which are really only of man. If/when HE wants me to know I'm sure he'll inform me.

Since I have never and will never have reason to have or to cause an abortion perhaps in his infinite wisdom he just hasn't seen fit to drop down and talk to me about the matter. Should I ever me in such a situation which I'm CERTAIN I never will be then he just might chose to bring me into the light on the matter.

One more last thought on the matter. I guess I'm really NOT one to think that all births should take place. I'm not one to believe that all people who were born should have been. I do believe that perhaps some who are not born should not have been and even some who were shouldn't have been. Murderers as a for instance or those who do or have done great harm to others perhaps never should have been born and the world would have been better if they has been aborted. Off the top of my head I can toss out a few names such as Hitler, Ben Laden and many others who would in my estimation might fit into such a category. Those born with such deformaties and problems that they will never lead a real life are others who might also fit the description. As you can see I just don't fit into any set mould and am my own person and see and do things my own way. My view of life is quite unique to me and I try to force it on no one else.

[dukkillr]

My view of life is quite unique to me and I try to force it on no one else.

And that's the point I was trying to make.  I have no problem with Dee or Ironglow's opinions provided they're not attempting to force them on me.  In a question so intimate to an individual person's view of life, spirituality, science, and experience, I can't imagine one person being so vain as to impose their view on another. 

BTW, the incendiary language only raises red flags with me.  You know where else you see such obviously baited language?  The anti-gun lobby.

[Dee]

dukkillr, I don't believe anyone can FORCE their opinion on some one else, unless that some one else is very weak minded, and I haven't seen much of that condition here. As I stated earlier, there are beliefs that I don't understand, and I can probably safely say ironglow would agree, and he and I don't always agree. But to erase any doubt, I am certainly ANTI-ABORTION.

[ironglow]

  I won't and can't..force my opinion on anyone else ! Baited language..I don't "bait" anyone, I just "call it as I see it"..avoid any untruths, and let the reader accept
    or reject;still a free country, that way.
 
  I don't believe in coercion..but I WILL try to convince, surely each of us try to do that in many ways every week !
 
  When it comes to the question of when does life begin..I would rather be "safe, than sorry" with God.
   Most of us would agree that life HAS to begin somewhere between conception and 3-4 months..at that point, the baby has it's own fingerprints and often has a different blood type than Mom. Baby's DNA is different than Mom or Dad's, and he/she is doing many things in there of his/her own volition.
    Thus, as with any situation..loading ammo, driving in traffic, handling chemicals, or shooting..we normally lean toward the safest choices.

   It certainly appears that from conception onwards, the choice to liquidate gets more and more narrow with every passing day..selah !

       Still, we are given free will ...each to make his/her own choices..

   I do feel confident that I will not have to face an angry God over my choice in this matter. ...Other choices probably, but not this one..LOL

    No, I am not an animal rights person..animals can't have "rights" since they don't even know what rights are. I was only pointing out the faulty thinking of some folks, especially on the loonie left, of which I doubt we have any here.
    Surely a baby human is more valuable than a turkey buzzard or an eagle's egg...but not in their minds..

[powderman]

IRONGLOW AND DEE. Agreed Sirs.
GRAYBEARD. I believe you misunderstood the comparison to animal cruelty. The point, as I see it, was that the world gives more sympathy to animals, than to babies. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

TM7;

  You said there seems to be little or no activism about the abortuaries, check this out !

            www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59461

[Graybeard]

But to erase any doubt, I am certainly ANTI-ABORTION.

I'd never have guessed it. 

The point, as I see it, was that the world gives more sympathy to animals, than to babies. POWDERMAN.

Not the part of it I live in.

[SHOOTALL]

when a farmer plants a seed he put it there to grow ! if a crow plucks it out of the ground it is a loss , if it sprouts and a deer eats it it is also a loss ! when did it become part of the cycle of life
if a man plants his seed and it is aborted before it is born has not a loss occurred ?
man is like the farmer he is responsible for the seed he plants !
no amount of discussion looking for loop holes will change that !
life as everything else begins at the beginning ! not days or weeks after the beginning ! we don't start a job and expect to work free then get paid for our time say starting on the 7 week , was it not a job until then ?

[SHOOTALL]

and as far as what churches do , they seem to have to appeal to those that donate the $$$$$$$$$$$$
when we meet our maker we will be alone !

[DDelle338]

  This thread is about abortion. I have a question. What do you say to the person who does not believe in God? To someone that does not believe that there is a spirit or soul. What if they believe that life is just a "bioligical happening". Are they are wrong?

[SHOOTALL]

A better ? might be is when does God put the soul with the human ?
at conception ?
at birth ?
at two years old ?
I freely admit I do not know and there fore consider abortion wrong at any stage of development !

[powderman]

  This thread is about abortion. I have a question. What do you say to the person who does not believe in God? To someone that does not believe that there is a spirit or soul. What if they believe that life is just a "bioligical happening". Are they are wrong?

I feel sorry for them, and yes, they are wrong. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

 
     DDelle;
   You ask me if the one who doesn't believe in God is wrong ? Yes, I believe they are wrong..or I would be counted among them !
 
   Obviously, they think that I am wrong..or they are just in rebellion with a God they know exists. All I can do is present the wisdom of the ages (Bible), pray for them
  and hope they "get it".
   I believe strongly in a God that allows "free will". We have virtually all heard the gospel message, and we can choose to believe or not. There may be some who are not being "drawn" or who have rejected once too often.

   Any Christian worthy of the term is ready "in season and out of season" to share the good news. Beyond that, we each make our choices..and then at that time
  (after earthly death) we will find the who was correct..or we will know nothing..

   Again; are we willing to take that chance ?
     

[SHOOTALL]

ironglow , i think in simple terms , are you saying man should not play God ?
as God has his domain and man has his . i feel its Gods domain to give and take life , he gives us the right to self defense .
abortion in many if not most cases  is only to defend ones lifestyle or character ( lack of in my opinion ) and not mans domain .

[Cement Man]

I'm a Christian and as such I believe that God gives life and it is wrong to take it away.  I believe that life begins at conception.

On the other hand, if I did not believe in God, I would still believe it wrong to abort that life.  I say that because whenever I found out that my wife was pregnant, I immediately had a sense of responsibility and devotion to being a father to that little being.  Once I knew it was there, at any stage, I would protect it , not destroy it.

[DDelle338]

 
     DDelle;
   You ask me if the one who doesn't believe in God is wrong ? Yes, I believe they are wrong..or I would be counted among them !
 
  Obviously, they think that I am wrong..or they are just in rebellion with a God they know exists. All I can do is present the wisdom of the ages (Bible), pray for them
  and hope they "get it".
   I believe strongly in a God that allows "free will". We have virtually all heard the gospel message, and we can choose to believe or not. There may be some who are not being "drawn" or who have rejected once too often.

   Any Christian worthy of the term is ready "in season and out of season" to share the good news. Beyond that, we each make our choices..and then at that time
  (after earthly death) we will find the who was correct..or we will know nothing..

   Again; are we willing to take that chance ?
     

    First let me say that I made a mistake by replying to this post in the first place because I try to never discuss religion in this way because it always leads to on person judging another’s faith, or lack of. And I WILL NOT judge another because that is ONLY to be done by The Lord. The Lord WILL judge each person individually on judgment day! That being said, here is the response to your post. (and my last)

  No. That is not what I asked at all. I was not asking if they were wrong for not believing in The Lord.   I was not asking for you to judge them that way. I would not ever ask you to commit such a terrible sin, because for one man to judge another man is a sin. I will leave the judgments God.

   What I asked is,,, Kind of hard to do in a short form. But here goes.
   The general thought is that abortion is a sin, by those that know the lord. But to someone that does not know the lord, through ignorance, it is not a sin (in their mind), and since it is not a sin to them, isn't it wrong for you to push your beliefs on them and tell them whether or not they should be able to have an abortion? Again: The Lord WILL judge each person individually on judgment day!
  I hope now you get what I meant.
 
  I also believe that this thread is in the wrong place. It should have been started in another forum. There are forums for religious discussions.

[Dee]

In a SCRIPTURAL sense, we ARE TO JUDGE MAN'S "SIN", but not the man. Meaning? To judge his activity as being either of a Godly or sinful nature. But not to judge the man as lost or Saved.

[powderman]

DDELLE. If a person doesn't believe in God they still sin in his eyes. Even without bringing God into it I would not believe that they could say they don't know right from wrong. I can see no way that anybody could say that killing babies is the right thing to do. Feel free to state your views, most of us are friends here, your opinions are welcome. POWDERMAN. 

[ironglow]

DDelle;
    Since you say you leave judgment to God, I presume you are a believer. That will help with the understanding...

  As Dee clearly pointed out, we do not judge the person..couldn't if we wanted to..that is indeed God's domain ! In every walk of life we are called upon to make judgements concerning our own and other's actions..good, bad or indifferent.
  Thus we must in many ways, make decisions based on observation. Is it right to "light up my tires" in this school zone ? Should I pay $475 for a broken boom-box ?
  Should I even consider trying crack ? Is it OK if I torture a dog ?
         If we just breezed through life like a simple "airhead", not being able to discriminate between right & wrong, good & evil..we would soon find ourselves in a terrible fix..
we would need an "adult" to look after us ! 
   
   The judgement thing: Folks that really don't know Scripture, take a few words out of context and say, " judge not, lest ye be judged" in an attempt to tell us that we should not pass any judgement on the ugliest sins. That just shows their ignorance of the Scripture. Again; as Dee pointed out..we recognize and judge sin..but leave the sinner to God.

   "Judgement" is an everyday exercise..
 
    Concerning "pushing beliefs" .....Democrats & Republicans both try to "push" their ideas upon us, Chevy, Ford & BMW do the same. That old boy on TV is always trying to sell you "super-putty" or the "shark" knife sharpener..
  Liberals "push" their political correctness upon the rest of us. The Brady bunch "push" anti second amendment ideas upon simple minds..should you be surprised when a Christian offers fellowship and advice ?     
   
   It is a free country, we can each say "no thanks"..

   As a genuine Christian, when we see a person heading pell-mell toward a Godless end, we would like to reach out and save them from an unspeakable eternity.
  I will  try to pull a person back from running into a fire, I will caution a teenager that he should not make that "cool"  200 ft dive of  a bridge. I will throw out a "lifeline" to a drowning person.
   
  I cannot continually, physically restrain them but I will do my best to save them from what seems like certain death..I will throw out that life line..wouildn't you ?

   The beauty of the whole story is, that no matter how ugly that lost person's sins were..they can get forgiveness and become a Child of God...