45-70 trapdoor and 1895 levels

[Scibaer]

my new reloading book lists the 45-70 trapdoor level loads as up to 25,000 cup, for " to be used in such rifles as H&R Shikari and other rifles of similar construction"

then it lists a next higher level ( 1895) with a cup rating of 40,000. they say in part " as that of the .444 Marlin"

NEF makes a .444 and a 500 right ? so can the Handi SB2 ( 2006) reciever handle the 1895 levels ?
according to my book, they list a 300gr. hp Hornady bullet pushed by 50 gr. of reloader 7 for a 1900fps round in the  1895 level
 would this ok, safe to do ?

[Foggy]

I believe the Shikari was alot weaker then a SB2 U know some of the heavy hitter ammo is ok in the SB2  the 450 marlin along with the 444 they are not shrinking violets. I would work up and read the cases

Foggy

[quickdtoo]

Here's one of the last discussions on load levels, it's been discussed a lot, stick with trapdoor loads starting out, then work your way up, your body will tell you how far you want to go, the SB2 frame will take a lot more than you will more than likely!!

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,114165.msg1098360751.html#msg1098360751

[Scibaer]

ok thats gets me where i want to be.
 i followed the links and read the thread. trapdoor levels will do all i need them to do on whitetails and if i can stand it the 1895 levels are more then enough.
and i think i am starting to understand the levels and cup pressures in relation to the type of powder being used too.

come on UPS ! santa is in a big brown truck this year !

[burntmuch]

Glenn When you get ready We ll have to get together & shoot the 45/70s . I ll bring the 357max for plinking. (alot cheaper to shoot) But do lots a reading first.

[Graybeard]

I've not really gone back and looked it up but that sounds way high for trapdoor loads to me. I'm thinking it's more like 18,000 or less. It should be the level that blackpowder operates at and no more and I don't think you can get that high with real BP. Seems like for Colt handguns is more like 13,000 or so but again I'm going on memory and that's not so good anymore.

In the .45 Colt I'm pretty sure that 24,000 is considered the second level up only for strong modern design guns. Might be but I don't see why it would be different.

[quickdtoo]

It depends on who's data you use, Hornady/Hodgdon Marlin level is equal to Lyman's Ruger level.

Tim

Trapdoor Level
Hornady/Hodgdon - 25kcup
Speer - 21
Lyman - 18

1895 Marlin Level
Hornady/Hodgdon - 40kcup
Speer - 28
Lyman - 28

Ruger/Modern Rifle Level
Hornady/Hodgdon - 50kcup
Speer - 35
Lyman - 40

[Graybeard]

Yeah BUT there is a SAAMI spec on all such rounds and that is the trapdoor level. I'm thinking that 18,000 is a lot closer to SAAMI than any of those others. In the case of the .45-70 SAAMI was set because of the trapdoor Springfield rifle.

[quickdtoo]

The SAAMI max pressure for the 45-70 is 28kpsi.  The issue gets confusing when they give the max in PSI when all the data is in CUP.

Tim

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm

[RickC.]

Here's one of the last discussions on load levels, it's been discussed a lot, stick with trapdoor loads starting out, then work your way up, your body will tell you how far you want to go, the SB2 frame will take a lot more than you will more than likely!!

Tim

True!

 I once loaded 20 rounds of Ruger level loads to test in my Handi.  After shooting 3 of them off the bench I took the rest home and pulled the bullets.  OUCH.


                                    Rick

[Scibaer]

well i should have said, the info i got for trapdoor @ 25k cup is from Hornady. i got a 50 round box of bullets, 300 gr. and thier small reloading book to go with it.
 Tim and Bill, you both have experience,  i dont, thats why i was asking, because Tim and i have discussed this topic of cup ratings varying by different manufacturers before.
 25k seemed high to be, based on what ive read before, and the 1894 levels at 40k cup are,  ???what?.. prolly higher wiht some substantial recoil, not anything i'd shoot for hunting whitetails or banging targets.  i need that Lyman manual to get here, asap. and use thier data and specs for my base line.
thanks guys

[Scibaer]

Jay,
your post slipped by me i guess.
 yeah we definately wil get together and whack some targets. we could go out to williams and really put on a show, or brant . have a couple of 45-70's ripping rounds down range in unison would be sweet, lol .. right, im reading all i can, and asking questions to isssues that pop up as i read. it may soud like i'm moving fast here , but im not, im reading and trying to learn all i can before i do anything.  i watched all 20 some vids on Lee's site about 3 times each.  Jim at Bares knows a bit about reloading too, and i been picking his brain. so by the time my kit gets here, i'll have some basic knowledge.  ofcourse NEF still has my BC, so i got time to read, read and read, but at some point i will have to put brass to press and try my hand.. squeezing off that first round will be a bit nerve twisting though  ..
Glenn

[Ranger J]

I load the 300gr HP load with 49gr Re#7 for my Marlin 1895 and it is all I want to shoot out of that gun  at the range with a Shooter's Friend slip on recoil pad and a strap on recoil pad on me.  I shot two deer with that load and gun this year and it did way too much damage to the meat.  I shot one with my 45/70 Handi and 300 laser cast at trap door level.  That deer was just as dead .  I'll probably drop the HP load closer to trapdoor level next year.  Yes, I shoot the 49gr load in my Handi with no problems at all.  I actually think it has less recoil than in the Marlin.  Of course I have the bold hole filled with lead musket balls and that helps considerably.  The Handi's will handle the Marlin loads fine but like tanning a deer hide, for me it was something I tried just for the experience but decided once was enough.  I enjoy shooting the 45/70 more then any other caliber I have but I am not likely to end up shooting 1000 yard targets (can't even begin to see that far even with scope) and am not likely to shoot either elk or bison soon, also.trapdoor loads are more fun and a lot cheaper to shoot than the heavier loads.  While some have shot Ruger loads in their Handi's I don't think it would be healthy for either you or the gun in the long run.

RJ

[Scibaer]

and thats just it, i do plan to hunt with my BC and the round i make up. i dont want to damage lot of meat.
the 49gr. Re#7 with the 300 gr. HP may end up being the limit for hunting whitetails, depending on the accuracy at 100 yards
if i can get 2 inch groups at 100 yards with that load then i'll call it good..

[woodchukhntr]

I shot a friend's Ruger #3 loaded to the max. for 350 gr. Hornady bullets.  3 shots, put down the gun & went looking for aspirins for my new headache and the ache in my arm!  The loads actually flattened the cannelure!  I just recently bought his .45-70 stuff for my Handi, and there were a few rounds left.  The first thing I did when I got home was to pull the bullets & dump the powder.

[Scibaer]

 ...
more then enough for whitetails , i bet 

[RickC.]

This is the one deer I shot with a 300 Rem JHP-- that's the -entrance- wound:



The shot was less that 20 yards, hit backbone and blew it all to hades while it disintegrated, no exit.  MV on this load was 1780 fps.

 I've shot several with the NEF and the Rem 405 SP at roughly 1450 fps.  Always exited, never a lot of damage-- every deer has gone straight down.  Have never gotten a shot while totin' 405 lead. 

 The 300 Rem was a very accurate bullet in the Marlin, but I switched to Speer UHC after this day.  Never shot another deer with the Marlin, have since sold it.  Other guys really like the 300 rem JHP-- I like it at the range, but not on deer.



                                             Rick

[henry1]

NICE PIC! And story there Rick! I liked it. I am surprised you didn't get an exit on that! LOL! It was a hollow point though. LOL! very nice!
Hank