NY man shoots teen threatening his family

[Brett]

Here is an example of what can happen in a state with no Castle Doctrine laws.  I think Mr White got the shaft on this one.  A group of young hoodlums shows up at his house in the middle of the night threatening to beat his son.   Sounds to me like he brandished the gun trying to scare them off but one of the young men made some type of move toward Mr White and/or the gun in his hand so he shot him at point blank range right in the kisser.  I don't blame the man for fearing for his and his families safety.  It's unfortunate that the young man got shot but he should have had sense enough to leave when the home owner produced a gun.  Hopefully he will get a retrial or suspended sentence.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/23/nyregion/23trial.html

[victorcharlie]

NY?  Who would have thought?

[Mikey]

Sorry folks - don't you know you do not have the right to defend yourself in the state of new york.  You have to die first, or be burned out, or have your wife or children beaten and raped in front of you and then and only then should you even consider a defensive move.

new york cops don't give a squat about the citizenry they serve.  They are under the impression that citizens are simply a blank check that has no individual rights.  cops in new york don't consider you worth the paper to write a report unless there is coffee and donuts to go with it.

Problems were the father had an unregistered gun - that's a death sentence in new york.  cops would just as soon shoot you on the street if they think you carry or own unregistered.  And, the guy went outside his house - no no.  Castle doctrine says you stay inside and defend yourself.  call the cops, too.  But, put your family behind something bulletproof or you are all dead. 

Racism - wrong state to try and pull that one.  new york is so sickeningly liberal it leads the nation in stupidity and arrogance, 'cept maybe for kalifornika.

Too bad the father gets the shaft.  JMTCW.  Mikey.

[Dee]

Mikey I don't know what Castle Doctrine your reading but, ours doesn't say stay inside.

[bulzaye]

They come in my house they are going to get it. Bottom line is I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

[frogjake]

Although its tough to judge anything if you were not there, I can see pretty clearly that this could have been avoided by just staying in the house and calling the police or at least pretend to call the police. the young men would have more than likely left and worked it out after the effects of the party they were at wore off.  I wonder if any property damage to the White's house was noted or even happened?  Are the White's  members of the Islam nation?  Are the Cissarro's members of the local biker gang?
I can see this news article was written to charge up the racial tensions and not relieve them.  Its a shame really.

[m1aman]

yep, race card was played and failed. they were in his yard and never attempted to get in the house. i have not found where there was even any vandalism. all they did was run their mouths. call the cops. that is what they are for.

[Chilachuck]

Tactical idiocy, going out and shoving the gun in people's faces. He is lucky they did not jump him and stomp him into the ground.

Yes, the reporter did try to inflame racial tensions (liberal brownie points for "exposing racism") and the editor allowed him to get away with it (create violence in order to have something to cover).

Of course, I'm cynical enough to wonder what sort of coverage reversing the races would have gotten.

[williamlayton]

I suggest that he met threat with force and was justified in his actions.
I have no information that the police were or were not called before the shooting--but--the best bet is they could not have responded before it got ugly.
How was he too have known if there were weapons or not--if murder were suspected I would have assumed weapons and felt justified by the suspicion.
I am most surprised that the issue of the weapon being unlicensed was an issue in the trial other than another charge of having an unlicensed weapon period.
The folks in New York should look into changing the hands that make laws.
Blessings

[ironglow]

   William;

   Many of us have for many years tried to change the stupidity in Albany (state cap)..but the liberals outnumber us ! As I read it, this incident happened in the NY City corner.
  I live on the other end of the state from that big cesspool (Richmond, Va or Fairmount, WV is closer to NYC than I am), but the libs still elect any statewide office holders.
   Living in a rural county, we have an excellent state senator..a farm-raised gal ! She has managed to forge alliances wherein she has helped to block the truly nutty ideas
  put forth by the looney left.
     We are generally, a very different people up in this end of the state. The only thing I could cling to, were it necessary to shoot someone bent on injuring or killing
  someone near & dear..is that I must be tried by 12 of my peers in this rural county...

[billy_56081]

Not only what is wrong with the laws of the State of New York, but what is wrong with the citazens? I would in no way convict any person for defending themselves or there family if they felt threatened. I guess its is as much the fault of the jurors for convicting someone under this law as it was the lawmakers who made it.

[Dee]

yep, race card was played and failed. they were in his yard and never attempted to get in the house. i have not found where there was even any vandalism. all they did was run their mouths. call the cops. that is what they are for.

I believe they stated they were there to kill his son. That in itself is enough where I come from. Perhaps you would feel better if they told you, and gave like intentions, and came to your house. I was a "cop" as you call them for 20 years. In reality it was usually OVER by the time we were able to get there. Something about not being called in time. Sometimes not.
Your arm chair opinion is obvious BS, as you were not there, and are judging a man accused of defending his family, in a state filled with liberal idiots for judges and prosecutors. Apparently the jurors in that part of the state are no better. I don't feel obligated to test my boxing skills against "pukes" half my age, while they "run their mouths" with such threats.

[m1aman]

[/quote]
Your arm chair opinion is obvious BS, as you were not there
[/quote]

i have read some of your arm chair opinions on here and they likewise qualify. just because someone runs their mouth doesn't mean you can kill them. i think your years as a cop disqualify you from making any rational judgement. your opinion is clearly tainted. obviously the jury agrees with my view and justice was served. i think it is dangerous for people like you to carry weapons. that rambo attitude is going to get an innocent person hurt one day. i hope you can live with it.

i also find it sad that you seem to take sides with the criminal in this instance.

[m1aman]

I believe they stated they were there to kill his son. That in itself is enough where I come from.
[/quote]

where you come from is irrelevant. why even bring it up other then to let us know your are a tough guy. this happened in ny. i guess if some guy is in your front yard talking trash you are going to kill him?

who knows what he said. we only have the word of the felon who is going to prison. thank goodness the jury saw through it.

[dukkillr]

Huh.  12 people heard days of testimony and evidence.  Their sole job was to determine what happened, and they ruled unanimously.  You can't get 12 people to agree on anything, and they all thought this guy was wrong.  We each read a single page recap that was less than in-depth.  But somehow we're the experts of what really happened?  I'm not that arrogant.  Maybe if I'd watched the trial myself I'd question the jury's decision, but I didn't.  I won't criticize from an less informed position.

When we learned to drive we all heard about the great responsibility that goes along with it.  Well this is an example of the responsibility that goes with gun ownership.  Shooting unarmed kids outside your home doesn't seem like the responsible thing to do. 

Rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6?  I don't see this situation as an either or, and neither did the jury.

[Dee]

where you come from is irrevelent.
(quote)

Being a tough guy in my opinion, is nothing more than getting you ass kicked and not whinning about it. Thinking you can handle a bunch of thugs threatening to kill a family member but,  described as teens "running their mouth" is thinking "your" a tough guy. I have seen the results of this "Tombstone Courage" of folks like you, when you THINK, their just loud mouthed teenagers.
As far as the better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six? With the concept, I agree, given good judgement in the situation. However, the fact of the jury convicting him gives me no confidence in JUSTICE being carried out. The man says he feared for his family, and was obviously not as tough as you. I'm SURE you could have handled them better.
Prosecutors with egos wanting High conviction rates, and LIBERAL gun hating juries are scary to say the least, especially in such a liberal area as this incident occurred. It didn't happen where YOU live EITHER. I think your "inexperience" disqualifies you of making any rational judgement of his situation.
JUSTICE? Tell that to the inmates released after DNA results PROVED beyond a shadow of a doubt they were innocent, even when there were so called EYE WITNESSES. Maybe the jury saw thru it, and MAYBE they were fooled by an arrogant, over-zealous prosecutor whom hates guns, and wants to make an example.
Trail lawyers get wealthy suing folks by fooling, or using liberal juries.
Like I said. Arm chair quarterbacking a man, protecting his family. 

[Graybeard]

I don't see that we have enough evidence to determine the right or wrong of the jury's decision. I do think that given the location it took place the outcome was inevitable and should have been expected. Sadly in New York especially in NYC only criminals have rights and everyone else is expected to bow to them and let them ply their trade. Such is the case in most bastions of liberal thinking.

Given that he went outside to take them on with a gun he knew was not legal for him to own in that locale I think he made a mistake that he should have seen coming and should have known and perhaps did up front that he would face punishment from a jury. Maybe he felt the situation was such that knowing what would happen to him he still felt it necessary to take that action.

Whether he was right or wrong is not our place to decide and the jury did that already. As long as he was willing to face the punishment and still felt he was justified then he was right in his own eyes and I guess for now until judgement day when GOD will sort it all out that is good enough.

[billy_56081]

The people on the jury were no better than sheep. If you feel that your life or a familly members lives abeing threatened you should be able to defend yourself regardless of the law. The jurors were too cowardly to issue a jury pardon to protest a law that is plain and simply WRONG.

[Dee]

That is exacty right GB. I will support any man defending his family if justified, and only the folks involved know for sure. Juries in that area are not a comfort to justice.

[Sourdough]

That's one of the reasons I don't live in the lower 48.  Here they come onto my property and I feel threatened I will shoot to kill, period.  So will the wife.

When I lived in Washington DC, I got involved in a shooting scrape out on I-295.  I hid my 12ga and .44 Ruger behind the seat of my truck, and headed for the base.  Luckily I got it onto the Federal Installation before the DC cops could stop me and find them.  When the DC cops came to the base looking for me for firearms possession , the military police told the DC cops too bad, he's legal to possess on this installation.  Luckily for me, the DC cops and the Base Commander and Base Security Police were having a tiff at that time.  I did not leave the base for 6 weeks period.  Meanwhile I had the shot up truck towed to Virginia, where they repaired the bullet holes and repainted it from Red to Gray.

[m1aman]

That's one of the reasons I don't live in the lower 48. 

ms is good as far as gun laws go. the state has nothing beyond what the feds require. we have a castle doctrine as well. also have the best divorce laws in the country if you are a man. we have plenty of other problems though 

[williamlayton]

The problem here is the law.
The jury had too follow the law.
Now---one person could have stood up and done what was correct and there would need to be a new trial---perhaps in a part of the state where people think and have some sense.

Ironglow
I agree that my post made poor remarks about a number of people that would disagree with the law.
I apologize.
Blessings

[bulzaye]

The biggest problem this guy had with this whole case as I see and have read up on it the prosecutor was able to use the one mistake the guy made and that was the illegal gun. This makes the guy look like he was looking for trouble and was willing to break the law to find some. Kind of like the city gangster mentality.  I live in upstate ny I mean way upstate NY I am about 15 minutes from the canadian border. That  cesspool of a city as put earlier is not even a part of NY state other than when I pay my taxes to support it as far as I am concerned.  Here in the biggest and probably most rural county in the state i would not hesitate to protect my family with deadly force.  If it was defending my family and that was obvious the grand jury most likely isnt even going to bring charges. Yes they will look into it, but usually it will be the end of it.  But all my guns are legal and I have a conceal permit.  If this guy has used a ballbat and beat him to death it would possibly be a different outcome since there would not have been any illegal gun use. Why wouldnt a prosecutor try bring an illegal gun charge simple it would work better in the prosection to say it was used. So I beg of you please do not associate all of NY state with that part no one claims anyway.  These kids had been at a party with alcohol and drug use. Who knows what they were jacked up on and how that was going to impair their judgement.  I am less likely to try to negotiate with a drunken high fool than I am someone who is sober and mad.  I have had these situatioins with my own brother showing up at my home drunk and high on cocaine threatening me which in turn to me assocoaites with threatening my family.  No I did not shoot him but I threw his ass out in the yard and when the police arrived he was still lying there waiting for them with a couple lumps on his head and a broken wrist.  he was taken to the hospital and then he was taken back to jail again. I guess he hit his head and broke his wrist falling off the steps.   No one knows how one will react in a situation until put in it.  I know I was not there, just stating it as I see it.  As I stated earlier I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.  Hindsight is 20-20

[Dee]

Hind sight indeed, is 20 20. Ain't that the truth. Sittin in a chair and proclaiming "I would have done it this way" is pretty easy also. Many a good bull ride has been made from the fence, but it's is a different story when one climbs off the fence, and gets on the bull. The story then without fail changes dramatically.
I have seen men that would defend their "families" to the death, and some that would not defend "themselves", but instead, would call 911 with faith in a flawed system, and survive or not survive, a very disappointing out come.
I judge NO MAN for defending himself and his family. Our youth in "many cases" are NOT what they once were.

[powderman]

Libby juries don't know squat. A man accused of torturing and murdering a woman here was found not guilty by 12 fine libby citizens. They were the only ones in the surrounding states that didn't know he was guilty. From newspaper and media coverage NOBODY expected a not guilty verdict, he walked away smiling. A tape was found in a house he had rented in the past. He had taped the whole act, the hours of torture, then the killing, his girlfriend helped. He was jailed again on trumped up charges, is free today. POWDERMAN. 

[Graybeard]

The problem here is the law.
The jury had too follow the law.
Now---one person could have stood up and done what was correct and there would need to be a new trial---perhaps in a part of the state where people think and have some sense.

Ironglow
I agree that my post made poor remarks about a number of people that would disagree with the law.
I apologize.
Blessings

Not really Bill there is such a thing as Jury Nullification. Juries DO NOT have to follow the law if they think the law is wrong they can hand down a verdict that is not in agreement with the law and in effect nullify the law.

[bulzaye]

that si for sure GB  Case in point OJ.

[powderman]

Mr White may have had other choices, but so did the punks. I support him for defending his son. Age doesn't matter, a 14 year old will kill you just as dead as a 40 year old, and do it quicker and without remorse. I feel sorry for Mr White, not the so called victim. I bet the rest  of them will leave private property next time they're ordered to. POWDERMAN.  

[dukkillr]

The problem here is the law.
The jury had too follow the law.
Now---one person could have stood up and done what was correct and there would need to be a new trial---perhaps in a part of the state where people think and have some sense.

Ironglow
I agree that my post made poor remarks about a number of people that would disagree with the law.
I apologize.
Blessings

Not really Bill there is such a thing as Jury Nullification. Juries DO NOT have to follow the law if they think the law is wrong they can hand down a verdict that is not in agreement with the law and in effect nullify the law.

Actually that's not true.  Attorneys often move for judgment not withstanding the verdict.  In essence it's a motion asking the judge to overturn the jury's verdict because they ruled against the evidence that was provided to them.  This is a common area for appeals as well.

http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/term/E28D902C-DE14-4B76-AA19E3CF4F23F3EF

[Brett]

All I can say is that I am sure glad I do not live in NY where they castrate their men and expect them to hide in a closet when a threat comes to them or their families on their own property.

I could not rule against any man who kills or injures one of a group of drunken men (yes men, they were over the age of 18, legally adults) who come banging at his door well after dark, threatening a member of his family with bodily harm.   I would raise such a stink on that man's behalf that they would have to trow me out of court or lock me up.  I believe a man has the GOD given right to protect himself and his family whether or not NY State or any of you care to recognize it or not.   I would much rather spend the next 5 or 10 years in prison than attend the funeral of a loved one when I knew I could have done something about it but didn't.  That is something I would find very difficult to live with.