NY man shoots teen threatening his family

[SHOOTALL]

well if a group surrounded me and i feared for my life , i would announce that i felt threatened and would take action if the threat did not go away ! or i was not allowed to leave !
I travel some in the north and have to be aware of the laws and can tell you they are stricter than the south in general !
I make no claim as to know why the northern states are so opposed to personal freedom ! but it appears that way to the southerner !
no harm intended ! and no need to start another war over it !

[Chilachuck]

Ram, yeah, that's one of the tricks politicians use when they want to raise taxes; "Police and Firemen First". "We have to close the schools and libraries."

[rockbilly]

Sorry, but I still maintain White was safe and secure in the confines of his home, there was to threat to his, or to his family's life at this point, therefore, I maintain my position that he overreacted.  Even with the liberal laws here in the great State of Texas this old farm boy would still foster this opinion.

As stated previously, once a foot crossed my threshold, an attempt to enter the home was made, or they began to destroy property there would likely been more than one death.  I would have fired until the entire mob was eliminated or until the last foot was off my property.

Looking back over the past 60+ years, had I shot ever person that uttered a threat toward me or a family member, I could have filled a grave yard.  Post hasty reactions to situation such as this make all gun owners look like a bunch of wanna be Rambo's.  Where does common sense and logic take over? 

[SHOOTALL]

common sense , like not going up to someones home and making threats ?
like leaving when you realize you forgot to bring a gun to a gun fight ?
we call it manners around here !
and yes you have a point ! BUT how many times have punks been allowed a free pass only to go farther into crime each time ?
who picks and when does it stop ? to some it seem you need for the punk to kill someone before he can be confronted ! to which I Say BS !
nip it in the bud !

[m1aman]

Sorry, but I still maintain White was safe and secure in the confines of his home

of course you are correct. he was safe and secure in his home. he escalated the situation from verbal to physical. he is now a murderer and i think he got off pretty easy with a light sentence imo. hopefully the family of the slain victim will treat him to a civil lawsuit.

[billy_56081]

THe good thing to come out of this is there is one less feral youth to cause problems in the world. And it may have had a side effect of training the other feral youth with him to be civilized.

[SHOOTALL]

we are doomed ! I'm sure of it now !

[Graybeard]

we are doomed ! I'm sure of it now !

Yes with that I would agree but I've felt that way a lot longer than this thread has been going.

What I personally feel SHOULD be the way it is and how it really is are two quite different things. One thing I try very hard to not do is to say what I "would have done" in such and such a circumstance. There are several reasons for this. I have no true first hand knowledge of the situation and without that I don't think anyone no matter what they say can KNOW what they would have done. You can surmise all you want but you do not KNOW how you would have reacted.

Since I don't know first hand the situation as it unfolded I can't KNOW what the person should have done or their reasons for doing what they did.

I also don't want to be down on record in writing as saying I would do this or do that in a specific situation just in case some day I am in that situation. I don't want someone in court to come back and say "see here he said he'd do this and did in fact do it" so he preplanned his actions. Until the situation develops with me in it I honestly don't KNOW what I'd do. I know what I think I'd do but for the reason given above I'll not be saying it in writing because I only think I know what I'd do I don't really KNOW what I'd do.

I THINK I'd not have gone outside I THINK I'd have stayed inside armed and called 911 to make sure what was going on outside was documented in case it escalated and also to hopefully get help in case it did. I THINK that if my home was breached by bodies or bullets I'd have made a really fast decision how to escalate my end of it. I THINK I'd not have had to shoot anyone and I THINK I'd not have been on trial. But I do not KNOW.

I'm all for self defense and will if necessary defend my life and my family's life.

I think we all should have freedom to defend ourselves as we see fit even to include shooting someone outside our homes if we feel threatened by them. But facts are we really do not currently have that freedom without the need to face a jury of our peers who will then decide if what we did is what they would have done or that they think we should have done. What they decide depends as much on where they are as who they are or what you did these days.

You can take any action you want you just have to face the consequences of that action afterwards and if you feel your actions require you to take the life of another by all means you should do so but just remember there are consequences you will suffer from that decision and a jury will determine what those consequences are.

The youth did what he felt right and he died as a result of the consequences of his action. The home owner felt he should take the life of that youth and he did and now he is going to prison as a consequence of his action. All actions have consequences. Just make sure before you take an action you are willing to face the likely consequences of it and if you are then by all means do what ya gotta do but don't whine and moan about the consequences afterwards.

[ironglow]

    Yep; sure !!

   Where was Al Sharpton when that lying little tramp named Tawanna Brawley was accusing a range of people from state troopers & other officials of raping and abusing her ?
  He was right beside her, helping her in her bogus case ! Mike Nifong didn't get away with it and Al Sharpton should never have, once the truth came out !
   Actually, the media like the NY Times and CBS, NBC & ABC should have pursued the story..and the lie..like they did with Nifong.
   
       This simply proves that there is racial prejudice running rampant here, led by the liberal media. Some claim we are a racist nation, and there are some who use "color" as a defining factor in virtually every instance, but the media will not be truthful about where the lion's share of racism is coming from..

[frogjake]

   I think GB hit the nail on the head with" accepting responsibility for your actions" I believe if more folks did just that instead of always trying to get over.  It just seems like I always hear about "It's not my fault/ responsibility"  and it really gets old quick.

[ironglow]

  TM7;
   Nice try at refocusing the question on a "chauffeur" that has no bearing upon what was being discussed..but Rev Al is clearly a race-baiting shyster !
   
      I can see why the chauffeur was whisked off to Israel..Wasn't at a previous date, a young, orthodox Jewish man beaten to death by a mob, when he was involved in a less dramatic auto accident in roughly the same area ? As I recall, NYC's Mayor Dinkins saw to it that no justice was rendered in that case !
   
     Why should Israel, Spain, Ireland, Djbouti, Montenegro or any other foreign country for that matter, even give a rabble rouser like bigmouth Al any credence whatsoever ?
   Seems like they would just be asking for trouble by having any doings with his type !

   

[ironglow]

  Yes TM, the chauffeur could be "whisked back" when required by proper authorities..however, Rev Al is hardly "proper authorities".
     Rev Al would look much more like a conscientious person who wants to "right the wrongs" if he were a bit more intellectually honest and even-handed. He should have been the first one back down to Duke University when the accuser of the lacrosse team was found to be a LIAR. Since he had run his mouth about it initially, he should have done his best to get the REAL culprit jailed..along with Nifong..decency requires it ! He also should have been demanding the jobs of those 80 odd instructors at the University that signed a "masnifesto" demanding trhe prosecution of the team members..even with no proof or conviction.
  He and Jessie Jackson are always taking upon themselves to be state dept. representatives to foreign countries..and noone has ever appointed them to such a post.
  If they had 1/4 the intellectual power of a Justice Clarence Thomas, Secy Condolleeza Rice, or Dr George Washington Carver they may stand a chance of such a position.
   Lacking that, they will just keep on playing the "race card"...

   Not surprisingly, many other countries..such as France, Mexico and Canada won't extradite the most heinous criminals back to the US if there is even a remote chance they will face execution. I am not sure what extradition agreements are in place between the US and Israel.

    The Muslim run countries are slow to extradite even on much less serious charges than capital offences.
     How many times has some silly woman here, married a Muslim..who a few years later takes their children and runs off to Saudi Arabia, Iran or kuwait ?
     ...And how often have those countries cooperated with the US in amicably settling the matter ?

[Dee]

TM7 your conspiracy theory has hit a stump in the turn in the road you just missed. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are vying for the crown of King and Saviour of the black race. The NEVER step in when ANY OTHER race is violated. EVER!
They make their living PREYING on misfortune, and do nothing to help race relations but, instead AGITATE the situation INTENTIONALLY, to keep the conflict going, thus more air time on media. It has been going on for years with Jackson, and even the black in most cases detest him.
They NEVER go back to the scene of the crime when the PROOF has been uncovered, and RIGHT THE WRONG, they involved themselves in. NEVER!

[ironglow]

  TM';

    If Rev Al were truly following Rev ML King, then race would mean nothing to him in "righting a wrong". Remember, it was ML King that said in his " I have a dream" speech
  that a person should be judged by the " content of his character", rather than the "color of his skin".
   If. as you say, "activism" is going somewhere, causing a ruckus and rousing the rabble..then sneaking off, never to come back and admit when they are wrong...we should
  find it as no surprise that "activists" are so widely disrespected and even hated !  There is NO HONOR among them !

[rockbilly]

Not only Brother Al, but 30 members of the House of Islam showed up at the court house in defense of White.  They also showed up at the trail of the individuals  that committed the crime outlined in the attached link.  Somehow since they were black they were Innocent of the rape and murder according to Al.  I think that is the case here too.

     http://readthis.wordpress.com/2007/01/15/rape-and-murder-of-white-couple-by-blacks-not-a-hate-crime/

This entire incident was orchestrated by a group of fools.  First the individual that put the information in an e-mail about White's son's plan to rape a white girl should be held guilty for contributing to the homicide.  This e-mail resulted into a disagreement during a conversation between the "boys"  which mushroomed into the confrontation between White and the boys, and to the eventual shooting.

If White had just locked the door and stayed inside perhaps this could have been defused without blood shed.  He did not react in what I consider a rational manner, there fore he should be prosecuted for being stupid and leaving the safety of the home.

[ironglow]

Rockbilly;

   No matter how tempted he was..he would have been much wiser to have stayed inside, protected his home and called the law.
   Such may have resulted in some provocative, wayward teenagers being jailed overnight and possibly fined.

   I believe that by doing what he did, White escalated the incident more than he intended to do. Surely, noone wanted a teenager.
   albeit a smart-aleky one to be deader than a doornail !

   There was an incident in my area a few years ago when a fellow became enraged at a wedding party at his neighbor's house. The
   party was being staged by a "notorious" local family of troublemakers.
  There was so much noise, swearing and carrying on that said fellow went out with his shotgun to confront the wild revelers. When he
  showed up at the fence line, the self-appointed leader of the revelers walked straight up to the shotgun holder, took the shotgun away and shoved the barrel into the ground !
   When one does what this guy did, going out with a shotgun..he must pre-plan just how far he us willing to let someone approach him before he kills someone !
     Then, the first thing the prosecutor will ask is ..Why didn't you call the police ?  ....Uhhh..

   Humiliating yes; but the fellow ate "humble pie", otherwise he would probably still be in jail.

[Graybeard]

I think a lot of us have been guilty of doing something real stupid. I'm gonna tell you of one such event I'm guilty of and it could have very easily have been a carbon copy of what happened here. I've thought many times since just how stupid my actions were that night.

This happened back some time in the early to mid 70s the specifics of when have long since been forgotten. It was late at night time I'm unsure of but certainly past 10:00 PM and perhaps past midnight. Again the precise time, date or even day of week have lost been lost to time.

We were aroused by a lot of vehicles pulling up into our yard and the street on which we lived. Many folks got out and a lot of noise ensued. I pulled back the curtains and saw a huge gang of youths in a circle around a couple others who were fighting for real and it appeared intent on doing greivous bodily harm to each other. I really did not know just what was going on and to be honest am still not sure today.

I called the police as this was long before 911 had been thought of. I then did the truly stupid act of taking a couple of handguns and going outside into my yard. I walked close enough to the crowd to get their attention and believe me when they saw I had two handguns in my hands they came to attention.

I told the two fighting to stop it immediately and come toward me slowly and then forced them to lay down on the ground where I held them at gun point until the police arrived. Needless to say the others were getting in cars and leaving as fast as they could. Dunno if they were getting away from the crazy guy with the guns or the police but they left regardless and I was actully quite happy they did.

It all worked out well the police arrived and arrested both of the guys I had held and I went back inside and went back to bed. No harm was done and no one was shot. But man what a STUPID thing I did that night. There is no way of know what the folks might have done but I guess in my mind I was thinking someone was going to get killed if I didn't intercede. Whether I was right or wrong I really dunno. I seem to recally they were using knives and perhaps other weapons against each other and definitely the potential was there.

But then so was the potential for either or both of them or any of the onlookers to have come at me. What would I have done if they had? I honestly cannot say since it did not happen and am sure glad I didn't have to find out the way the guy in this story did. But I did go out with full intentions of protecting myself and my home and likely would have dropped anyone who came at me.

There had been some drug activity going on and someone had come to my house and threatened my family over a supposed drug transaction they thought my wife had witnessed. She had not actually seen it but they thought she had. This was fresh on my mind that night when I walked out armed and ready to shoot if need be.

I'm sure glad it turned out better than it did for the guy in NY and I have often thought since how really STUPID it was for me to leave my house that night. Would I do it today? Nope not a chance but I was much younger then and there were extenuating circumstances that made me think that night I should go out and do as I did. I was wrong I'm sure now but at the time I didn't think so.

It only takes one bad decision to begin a sequence of events that can lead to the death of one or more as it did in NY but did not luckily in Bama that night. Maybe those southern boys were just smarter and knew to get the hell out of dodge rather than approach a man with guns drawn dunno. Maybe it was just that so long ago people and times were more innocent than today. Maybe the fact we were all white mattered. I don't know what mattered but sure am glad it turned out as it did and not the way it came down in NY.

But he like me should have stayed in his home that night.

[Dee]

Graybeard, this is EXACTLY what I have been saying. In my past profession I have seen many incidents similar to yours and the guy in question. Some turned out good, and some not so good. The key to the whole thing is "if you weren't there" how do you know he did, or didn't do the right thing?
I "judge no man" for defending his family, even when he was not necessarily prudent in the way he went about it. It is after all his family.
Even though the man was tried and convicted for the incident some here call a crime, I don't blame him. He did not ask to be put into the position he was put into. The group or gang of youths put him in it by COMING TO HIS HOUSE.
To say that he was guilty, is to me JUDGEMENTAL, on any one's part, as a lady not too many years ago, was awarded a half million dollars BY A COURT, for spilling a hot cup of coffee in HER OWN LAP. JUSTICE? I don't think so.
If you work hard to start your own business, and don't hire some one just because you don't want him in your business, or you don't want to rent him your rent house, he can SUE YOU AND WIN IN "COURT". JUSTICE? Hardly.
My common sense tells me that things are not always the way some made them appear. Even in my experiences with my own family I have seen things distorted for personal gain, with other family members suffering.
I have not walked a mile in that man's moccasins.

[SHOOTALL]

if a man is allowed the freedom to defend himself and family it seems some see it as a weakness in govt. which i believe the ones who think this are divided into two groups , those that want total govt. control over citizens ( subjects ) and those that for what ever weakness won't defend themselves and rely on govt. to do it for them no matter how many times it is proved they can't !
this is the action that will end our freedom , lack of desire to defend our self !

[m1aman]

seems to me that a weapon in the house should be for self defense. white was definitely in an offensive mode. the murderer will be going to prison. as far as second guessing goes, some here are second guessing the jury who happen to know a lot more about what happened than any of us will from reading the newspaper. having a gun is not a license to kill anyone that pisses you off.

[rockbilly]

Dee, how much protection could White provided his family had one of the "mob" been armed and shot him when they saw he was armed.  I think by leaving the safety of the home he not only placed himself in harms way he also set up a situation where his family may have been subjected to even more harm by his absence.  

Bottom line, stay in the safest place you can find until the Calvary arrives, if you have to initiate gun play to hold them off until help arrives then do so, I don't think a court in this land would find a man guilty of murder if he shot a dozen people trying to invade his home, and if they elect not to invade the home, then no harm is done to anyone.

[Chilachuck]

Dee, there's a lot more to the "hot cup of coffee" story than hit the press.

McD used to keep the coffee at near boiling temperatures so they did not have to make a fresh pot so often (drinking temperature coffee "goes stale" faster than "boiling hot" coffee). Turns out several other people also got scalded.

Plaintiff tried to settle for a smaller amount, McD went to the mattress, declaring unlimited war. Plaintiff did not back down. The heights reached were the result of how hard McD fought the issue.

Side note: McD spent more money in advertising and rumor mongering propaganda than the court awarded the plaintiff.

[SHOOTALL]

SO it better to pay someone !

[Dee]

Dee, how much protection could White provided his family had one of the "mob" been armed and shot him when they saw he was armed.  I think by leaving the safety of the home he not only placed himself in harms way he also set up a situation where his family may have been subjected to even more harm by his absence.  

Bottom line, stay in the safest place you can find until the Calvary arrives, if you have to initiate gun play to hold them off until help arrives then do so, I don't think a court in this land would find a man guilty of murder if he shot a dozen people trying to invade his home, and if they elect not to invade the home, then no harm is done to anyone.

rockbilly my post was not about what White should have done. It was about second guessing someone AFTER THE FACT.

m1aman, you analogy of the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the jury KNOWING THE DETAILS sets very little precedence in a system that has sent folks to jail with EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY, only to have DNA TESTING years later that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt the PERPETRATOR WAS INNOCENT!

Chilachuchk, whom poured the coffee in the woman's lap. McDonald's or the woman her self? When coffee is brewed it is assumed that everyone knows it is hot. Are we know longer responsible for our own mishaps? I guess if we have a good lawyer we aren't.
Next (if they haven't already) we will be suing when we spill a boiling pot of beans on ourselves at home, saying the pot didn't have a warning label.

Common sense CONTINUES to dictate that things are not always as portrayed, regardless of the claimant's station in life.

[m1aman]

m1aman, you analogy of the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the jury KNOWING THE DETAILS sets very little precedence in a system that has sent folks to jail with EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY, only to have DNA TESTING years later that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt the PERPETRATOR WAS INNOCENT!

full knowledge? you said that not me.  and you keep bringing up other cases as if they qualify as circumstantial evidence or something. why don't you stick to what we know? bottom line is that the system works most of the time. why can't you see that white made the situation worse for himself and the kid?  you seem to want to justify murder. white was just plain stupid and unfortunately someone else paid the ultimate price. of course the kid was wrong, in his case dead wrong. but he didn't deserve to be shot in the head from what i have read. white does deserve to die. but he will only go to prison.

this ain't the wild west man.

[Dee]

m1aman, you analogy of the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the jury KNOWING THE DETAILS sets very little precedence in a system that has sent folks to jail with EYEWITNESS TESTIMONY, only to have DNA TESTING years later that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt the PERPETRATOR WAS INNOCENT!

full knowledge? you said that not me.  and you keep bringing up other cases as if they qualify as circumstantial evidence or something. why don't you stick to what we know? bottom line is that the system works most of the time. why can't you see that white made the situation worse for himself and the kid?  you seem to want to justify murder. white was just plain stupid and unfortunately someone else paid the ultimate price. of course the kid was wrong, in his case dead wrong. but he didn't deserve to be shot in the head from what i have read. white does deserve to die. but he will only go to prison.

this ain't the wild west man.

IT'S NOT?

I AM sticking to what I KNOW. I KNOW NOTHING other than what I have read. "YOU" KNOW NOTHING other than what you have read in a VERY LIBERAL STATE WITH LIBERAL PAPERS AND NEWS MEDIA, which also happen to be EXTREMELY ANTI GUN.
The one missing the point m1aman, is YOU. I said I don't judge a man when I wasn't there. I would wager I have seen FAR MORE murders than you, and I don't watch much TV. I have worked as many as three killings in one day BUT, I wasn't WITH Mr. White. I didn't see what he saw. I didn't think what he was thinking. I WASN'T THERE, and neither were YOU. I'm glad I wasn't, but I DO know what some prosecutors are capable of. DO YOU? ESPECIALLY in a state that is RABIB ANTI GUN.
My point to quoting other incidents is, that PROSECUTOR AND JURYS "CAN" BE WRONG. Your analogy is that "by gosh" White NEEDS TO DIE. My analogy is; I say I don't know. AND, I don't base my opinions on lawyers I've never met, and newspaper and TV reports.

[Brett]

Okay, here is a question for you guys who are ready to lynch Mr White.  Should the other youths be convicted as accessories to the "murder"?   Since Mr. white was convicted for manslaughter I think that it only fair that the other youths be convicted as accessories.   And what about the kid who sent the e-mail which started this snow ball in motion? 

[frogjake]

I think that is an interesting angle.  I don't know if it would fly in court though.  I do wish some of the madness that is started onthe net could be punishable ie; the child predators, all the scams, ID theft.

[Graybeard]

Like I said in my post above. I SHOULD HAVE stayed inside that night after I called the cops. White should have called the cops and stayed inside also.

Fact is neither of us did stay inside we both went outside. In my situation it all turned out fine in his it did not. I can see how I could very easily have been in the same situation as he found himself had one or several of them have charged at me when they saw me with the guns. Would I have shot? Can't say since it didn't happen but yeah I most likely would have.

Then the only difference really would have been it was 30 years earlier in time and in Bama not NYC and everyone involved was white. What would have happened to me if it had turned out like it did for White. I honestly don't know and am glad it didn't so I didn't have to find out.

We BOTH should have stayed inside our homes. Bad judgement on the part of both of us. I came out with no problems he's in prison for murder. But in reality the line separating the two is paper thin.

[rockbilly]

Evidently some have never heard of responsibility.............

White took full responsibility for his actions when he exited the house to confront the mob.  Therefore, he, and he alone is responsible for the death.  To think otherwise could lead to a case against the kid that made the coffee at McDonald's, did he not contribute to the lady being burned by the hot coffee by making it?  And while we are at it we might as well go after the deliveryman that delivered the coffee, and perhaps the salesman, etc, etc.

My point, assuming the responsibility for ones actions is part of the responsibility of having and using a firearm, White is responsible for what happened and should be dealt with accordingly.