Author Topic: Am I Being Paranoid? (Read 1278 times)

jdwolf · « **on:** December 25, 2007, 11:41:09 PM »

Since I bought a new Handi Rifle in .223 caliber a couple of days ago I've been reading a lot of comments on them here and other sources on the internet.

First off, I've never heard of a brand new rifle you had to clean the bore and action of before you shoot it.

Just how accurate (with a good scope) are these rifles out of the box?

Am I to expect problems with misfires and ejecting fired cases?

I bought this NEF for coyote hunting. I hope I made a good choice.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 25, 2007, 11:54:13 PM »

jdwolf

Every new firearm needs a good cleaning , thats just a fact of life , as for the handi some are great shooters OTB but some need a little tuning to be great , my 223 BB was a 3/4" rifle from the start .

Keep the chamber clean and dry and you should not have a problem with stuck cases , one other thing avoid the cheap steel case ammo , the varnish will tend to gum up the chamber and it shoots like crap .

stimpy

PS -- Welcome Aboard

Datil · « **Reply #2 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:27:28 AM »

DJwolf welcome to the wonderful world of Handi's and GBO forums.
Stimpy Told you most every thing about new Handi's.
Next thing you will be a HANDI-Holic. Take care! Marv.

bigjeepman · « **Reply #3 on:** December 26, 2007, 04:16:41 AM »

Welcome ...

My .223 bb Handi, like stimpy's, shot very good out of the box after a very good cleaning. I have never heard of any make/model firearm that didn't need cleaning when bought new. My .223 bb shot around 1" in the beginning. With some minor tuning tips from members here and some handloading work with Nosler BT and Vmax bullets, I can shoot very good groups consistently. I cannot expect more than that out of any rifle I own.

bjm

Graybeard · « **Reply #4 on:** December 26, 2007, 05:05:34 AM »

Quote

First off, I've never heard of a brand new rifle you had to clean the bore and action of before you shoot it.

Dunno the source of your information but it is very suspect. I don't know any brand of gun you should not clean well before firing or any that do not recommend it in their owner's manual. When a gun leaves the factory they have no way of knowing how long it will sit in a warehouse or retail store in the box before it is sold and put to use. So they put preservative oils and/or grease in the bore and on the action. This should always be removed by cleaning before you first fire the gun and you should then put proper lubes in the places needed.

I've been doing this for over 40 years on the new guns I buy. Can you ignore it and just shoot anyway? Sure but it's not recommended.

dracphelan · « **Reply #5 on:** December 26, 2007, 07:52:15 AM »

1. As the others have said, any new firearm needs to be cleaned.
2. I a new Handi 223 with a bull barrel. Using cheap ammo and a cheap scope, I am getting groups of 1 inch or less at 100 yards. Here some link to my reviews on the rifle (with pictures of targets).
http://www.timcov.us/archives/86
http://www.timcov.us/archives/76

slipup · « **Reply #6 on:** December 26, 2007, 12:20:55 PM »

Yo - Don't waste your money on a expensive scope. The VERY best groups you can expect will be 1.5" at 100 yards. You may from time to time get < 1.5" depending on the day BUT this is not consistent. I have tried 8 different bullets and 4 powders two different primers. The cases are trimmed, necks shaved (.010), pockets reamed, flash holes deburred, neck sizing, hand weighed all the powder to < .01 gr accuracy. The gun has the barrel floated and the trigger has been tuned. I don't know of another trick. The gun is bagged when I shoot it. I tried bullet seat depth variations that show no promise. The 1 in 12 twist will shoot 60gr bullet and the v-Max will let to adjust the "jump" even though the "freebore" is deep on H&R barrels you can still hit the lands with V-max 60gr.

For the money, It's a fair gun. But don't think your going to get any sub MOA out of it. There are people out there that say the can do consistent .5" groups. I would have to see it. I have pumped a few pounds of powder through my Handy 223 and the best group was 7/8". There are some 50 yard pictures below from someone. At 50 yards I'm making one hole. At 100 yds is a whole nother game.

My intent with this message was not to discourage or anger anyone. This was my experience. I expected more, only from reading messages about sub MOA groups.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** December 26, 2007, 12:40:30 PM »

Slipup, you need to look at the FAQs and get back to basics other than your handloading techniques, start with the Handi 101 Basics, work from there, a Handi isn't a bolt gun and requires some different techniques to get consistent accuracy, from how you close the action and pull the trigger, every little thing counts, you just have to be aware of them.

Tim

jdwolf · « **Reply #8 on:** December 26, 2007, 12:49:38 PM »

Thanks to all that replied I appreciate the info.

I don't reload, I'll be shooting factory ammo, Remington 55 grain hollow points and/or 55 grain soft points.

Can anyone recommend a decent scope?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** December 26, 2007, 12:55:38 PM »

Welcome aboard JD! How much do you wanta spend? You can get the Mueller APV for $115 shipped, if I needed a scope for a .223 for coyotes, it would be one of my first choices.

Tim

http://www.eabco.com/MuellerAPV.htm

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,121737.msg1098413929.html#msg1098413929

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,129224.msg1098472123.html#msg1098472123

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #10 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:06:52 PM »

Slipup I bet you could make that bbl shoot better if you dropped to 45-55 gr bullets and did not worry so much about getting to the lands. You could find a load that will shoot less than 1''. Hell mine shoots 1 1/2'' with factory remingtons. Kurt

DSMcG · « **Reply #11 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:07:34 PM »

JDwolf,

Have you actually shot the gun? We can only assume the answer is no. I would suggest going into your first range session with a positive attitude.

Sure you can typically say you get what you pay for. I would say for the money, a 1 MOA rifle is a good deal. It's been my limited experience that with minor tweaking (to both the rifle AND your fundamentals) the NEF rifles will shoot < MOA all day long.

Go shoot it.

Please do not take my post as being negative. I am trying to improve a NEF 308 currently. Perhaps I need to learn to shoot it the way IT needs to be shot. 1" grouping is not terrible but like most of us, I will try very hard to improve that. It's certainly a learning process.

Good luck.

DSMcG

billy_56081 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 26, 2007, 01:18:15 PM »

Where did you hear don't clean the barrel or action before you shoot a new rifle?

??

That one peice of very dangerous advice. Over 20 years ago I bought an Interarms Mark X mauser. I cleaned the cosmoline out of the action then pushed a rod down the barrel. To my amazment about a 6" wad of cosmoline the dieameter of the bore came out in front of the rod. I hate to imagine what would have happened if I had fired my new rifle without cleaning it.

jdwolf · « **Reply #13 on:** December 26, 2007, 02:43:11 PM »

Quote from: DSMcG on December 26, 2007, 01:07:34 PM

JDwolf,

Have you actually shot the gun? We can only assume the answer is no. I would suggest going into your first range session with a positive attitude.

Sure you can typically say you get what you pay for. I would say for the money, a 1 MOA rifle is a good deal. It's been my limited experience that with minor tweaking (to both the rifle AND your fundamentals) the NEF rifles will shoot < MOA all day long.

Go shoot it.

Please do not take my post as being negative. I am trying to improve a NEF 308 currently. Perhaps I need to learn to shoot it the way IT needs to be shot. 1" grouping is not terrible but like most of us, I will try very hard to improve that. It's certainly a learning process.

Good luck.

DSMcG

No, I haven't shot it yet. I plan on getting it scoped this weekend and doing some shooting. A couple of guys I work with both have an NEF .223 and said they really are a good gun.

jdwolf · « **Reply #14 on:** December 26, 2007, 02:45:21 PM »

Quote from: billy_56081 on December 26, 2007, 01:18:15 PM

Where did you hear don't clean the barrel or action before you shoot a new rifle???

That one peice of very dangerous advice. Over 20 years ago I bought an Interarms Mark X mauser. I cleaned the cosmoline out of the action then pushed a rod down the barrel. To my amazment about a 6" wad of cosmoline the dieameter of the bore came out in front of the rod. I hate to imagine what would have happened if I had fired my new rifle without cleaning it.

I didn't hear it anywhere. I just never have cleaned a new gun before I shot it.

jdwolf · « **Reply #15 on:** December 26, 2007, 02:52:17 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on December 26, 2007, 05:05:34 AM

Quote
First off, I've never heard of a brand new rifle you had to clean the bore and action of before you shoot it.

Dunno the source of your information but it is very suspect. I don't know any brand of gun you should not clean well before firing or any that do not recommend it in their owner's manual. When a gun leaves the factory they have no way of knowing how long it will sit in a warehouse or retail store in the box before it is sold and put to use. So they put preservative oils and/or grease in the bore and on the action. This should always be removed by cleaning before you first fire the gun and you should then put proper lubes in the places needed.

I've been doing this for over 40 years on the new guns I buy. Can you ignore it and just shoot anyway? Sure but it's not recommended.

I've never cleaned any new gun I ever bought before shooting it, I had no idea you were suppose to. However, your explanation does make good sense so I guess from here on out I'll start cleaning any more new guns I buy before shooting them.

Handi22-250 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 26, 2007, 05:48:23 PM »

I was skeptical at first too when I bought my 22-250, but then I shot it, and I fell in love with it instantly. I don't shoot factory ammo anymore I like to shoot it so much..... I have to reload....

It's kind of a pain to clean a new gun, cause you want to shoot it, but you never know what is in the action or barrel..... and you won't get frustrated when your trying to sight in...

For sure get those latch surfaces CLEAN!!!!

These guns are well worth the price, you'll be happy with it after you shoot it for sure.

I can get 3/8" groups at 100 yards with my reloads, and that's with a $70 scope from wally world...

Have fun!!

Rick

Chilachuck · « **Reply #17 on:** December 27, 2007, 05:54:40 AM »

I've washed a lot of junk out of firearms I just bought, new or used. Lot's of metal filings, sometimes is chunks of cardboard or Styrofoam, but there's always extra grease in what I'm flushing with. Always clean any gun you buy or borrow. Besides, you never know if some jerk or punk has sabotaged it in the store. (I usually tear down the guns and clean up any sloppy machining, as well.)

Rick, I had a real accurate, cheap scope on a rifle once. All of a sudden, the accuracy went bad. I nearly went nuts trying all sorts of things to restore the accuracy of that rifle, a total waste. I forget how I finally discovered it was the scope but that was after I nearly ruined the gun. It's in the back of a shed now, gathering rust. (Needs a new stock, too.)

Be happy, but don't get so you have to rely on that scope, it can go bad any day now.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #18 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:10:38 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 26, 2007, 12:40:30 PM

... a Handi isn't a bolt gun and requires some different techniques to get consistent accuracy, from how you close the action and pull the trigger, every little thing counts, you just have to be aware of them.
Tim

Ain't that the truth! I have a set routine for any new bolt gun I get and usually do something or other to any I pick up, before I start working on handloads! The I got into this Handi thing. First a 45-70/30-30 that shot clover leafs out of the box. DANG I says to meself! These things are ACCURATE! Then a friend's .308 and my 7x57 that I couldn't get to shoot under MOA. I worked, I shot, I read, I shot, I bugged the heck outa Tim and shot some more! And ya know what? I had, and am having, a darn good time playing with these things!

Handi22-250 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 27, 2007, 08:50:30 AM »

Yeah cheap scopes are what they are...cheap.

I know you get what you pay for, I just needed a scope to get started.

I'm glad I bought this rifle though, I was going to buy a .308 savage tac rifle, but I couldn't buy it and a scope and wanted to get started.....

I love this gun...

Rick

0369 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 28, 2007, 09:54:37 AM »

Quote from: slipup on December 26, 2007, 12:20:55 PM

Yo - Don't waste your money on a expensive scope. The VERY best groups you can expect will be 1.5" at 100 yards. You may from time to time get < 1.5" depending on the day BUT this is not consistent. I have tried 8 different bullets and 4 powders two different primers. The cases are trimmed, necks shaved (.010), pockets reamed, flash holes deburred, neck sizing, hand weighed all the powder to < .01 gr accuracy. The gun has the barrel floated and the trigger has been tuned. I don't know of another trick. The gun is bagged when I shoot it. I tried bullet seat depth variations that show no promise. The 1 in 12 twist will shoot 60gr bullet and the v-Max will let to adjust the "jump" even though the "freebore" is deep on H&R barrels you can still hit the lands with V-max 60gr.

For the money, It's a fair gun. But don't think your going to get any sub MOA out of it. There are people out there that say the can do consistent .5" groups. I would have to see it. I have pumped a few pounds of powder through my Handy 223 and the best group was 7/8". There are some 50 yard pictures below from someone. At 50 yards I'm making one hole. At 100 yds is a whole nother game.

My intent with this message was not to discourage or anger anyone. This was my experience. I expected more, only from reading messages about sub MOA groups.

Slipup, before you bash the .223 Handi-Rifle, try a bullet that will be stabilized by 1 in 12 twist. There are far more factors involved in finding the harmonic sweet spot of a barrel than what you mentioned. I can't attest to the Handi accuracy with factory loads, but can get well under an inch without loading bench rest quality rounds. By the way, this was with a 223 super light prior any bedding or trigger work.

Chilachuck · « **Reply #21 on:** December 28, 2007, 05:05:18 PM »

Slipup, I did not see your post the first time through for some reason. Sorry.

Cheap scopes have not been a problem for me because of accuracy. Nope. They are problems because they are dim or because they fog up. Aside from that, they have been very accurate -- UNTIL THEY BREAK.

Until something comes loose inside the scope.

I can work with dim scopes, though I'd rather not. I can deal with fogging by watching the weather. Can't do squat if the cross hairs come loose.