What is a free-ranging game animal?

[jcn59]

In the early 1800s, before the west was owned by private individuals,  there was a term in use called "free-range".  Now I'm not a rancher, so I don't know much about these things.  I believe it was possible in those days to drive your cattle in as straight a line as the geography would permit from where they were raised to the closest or most profitable market.   Then came private land ownership and barbed wire fences, and there was no more free range.  The cattle could no longer go where they wanted, but more importantly, MAN could no longer go where he wanted, else he was trespassing, right?

Enter now the 21st century.  Tell me about free-ranging deer that are kept on private land, fed off planted and cultivated food plots like cattle, this land fenced to keep MAN out.  It's my contention that when a game animal is managed like cattle, it is no longer a free-ranging game animal.   Yes, I know it takes a lot of money and hard work to create and manage a deer farm, just as it takes a lot of work to run a dairy farm.  You can't deny the similarity.

It would seem to me that a free-ranging deer is one that exists as God intended it to exist.  That is, a life of seeking out it's own natural foods as provided by nature, and in danger from predators, (including man) and when nature provides the right environment, and when the deer is able to elude the predators, a natural "trophy" evolves.  That is my idea of a real trophy to be remembered if one is lucky enough to "tag" it.

And these are just my thoughts.  Perhaps yours are different.

[dukkillr]

When you can hunt a deer and he can't run off your property, regardless of what you do, it's not free range.  Just my personal opinion, but I think high fences pose a bigger threat to hunting than any other force today. 

[jcn59]

That's kind of what I was trying to say......it's the implication that land ownership implies game ownership.  "High fences" and other practices are symbolic of the problem.   It's just another twist to the concept of  "Casa Nostra".

[Graybeard]

I believe the concerns you express are far more imagined than real. They are mostly expressed by folks who have never personally experienced high fenced hunting.

Now mind you it does matter the size of the fenced area as to how sporting or fair the hunt or chase is. If you have a small area with an artifically high popluation inside that requires feeding by man then I'd agree the situation is most certainly not fair chase.

The concept that if it can't get off the property you control it's not fair chase has some merit but again it depends on the size of the area and the normal range of the animal. Take a white tail deer for an example. Most agree a square mile or so is an average territory for the majority of them while some range over a wider area some range over a much smaller area as well. They are experts at the use of cover and sneaking around undetected. If you have an area of over 1000 acres in size composed of thick cover for a buck to hide in that's pretty darn fair chase to that deer as he can elude you there as easily as if the fence were not there as all he is interested in doing is moving around slowly within that area he doesn't really want to run from it and will not unless chased by dogs.

Now take an elk who's normal range is many square miles or many tens if not hundreds of thousands of acres. I guess I just don't think many own or can own enough land to fence and call it fair chase with an animal who thinks nothing of running 5 or more miles before stopping. Still let's be fair and say you own the Vermao Park Ranch. Yeah I butchered that spelling badly I'm sure. That ranch is roughly 3/4 million acres in size. It is NOT high fenced but if it was as huge as the ranch is it still would constitute fair chase for elk in my opinion unless you used the fence to hem them up near the border of the property.

To me it matters most the size of the fenced land in comparison to the normal range of the animal and the type of terrain that animal uses in it's natural environment. The numbers maintained within the area and whether they are artifically fed to keep populations above carrying capacity of the land or if they are allowed to exist on natural foods matters as well.

I've been inside an 80 acre enclosure on an exotic hunt where the animals were so tame you could kick them in the butt if you wished and no there was nothing fair in the chase and really no chase to it. Yet inside that 80 acres there existed at least two Mouflon sheep and a pair of addax and one ibex that I'm aware of. I had an iron sight handgun to hunt with and while I was not after either of those five animals I would not have been able to have killed either of them had I stayed a month I don't think.

The two mouflon were always aware of where we were and they were as far from us in that enclosure as they could get and the cover was very thick in there. I could have gone high with a scoped rifle and taken them easily but with an iron sighted handgun they were likely not kill able had I wanted to. Same for the other three. I saw the ibex once on the entire hunt going up a steep hill really fast and from way out of range of the gun in my hands. I never saw it again. I saw the addax once as well running full tilt out of range had I been trying for them and never saw them again.

We spent perhaps 4 hours in there before I told the guide I was not going to pull the trigger to take me elsewhere for something more sporting. The catalina goats and corsican sheep I was interested in were just too tame to bother with.

I ended up going to a 1500 acre ranch and shooting an axis deer which I got only the most fleeting view of as it followed a herd of does. I shot when he was perhaps two steps at most from disappearing from my view. I had previously seen a true monster I wanted badly but we hunted most of the day without ever seeing him again in that thick cover. When this one presented itself I knew it was not the match for the one I'd been looking for but it was only the second hard antlered axis I'd seen on that ranch all day. Axis was fair chase to me on that ranch and I have found them in the years since to be even more wary than white tail deer when in the same area.

It's easy to judge something you've never experienced personally and say it's not fair but until you've been there done that at that spot you really have no clue of what you speak and are speaking from a position of ignorance ie lack of knowledge.

[jcn59]

I have personally experienced high fence hunting for "wild" Russian boar.  Actually the fence wasn't "high" but I guess it was high enough to keep the pigs in.  They apparently can't jump too high, and as far as I know, pigs can't fly, can they?   The enclosed area was just under 80 acres. 

We hunted on foot in 15" snow in a little cedar swamp with revolvers. I guess it's safe to say it was alot harder than shooting a whitetail doe off a corn pile from a little house on stilts.  The pigs were a nice representation of the breed, close to 300#, with long straight heads and 5" of hair on their backs and most everywhere else, plus they had the disposition of a scorned woman.  It took about three hours to finish the hunt.  If we were determined to shoot a particular pig, I suppose it could have taken a day or two.

We all agreed that shooting pigs in the snow in March with revolvers was more exciting than hunting turkeys, even if they can't fly.  This despite the fact it was probably unfair chase because we were going to hunt until we got one.

[Graybeard]

I went on a hog hunt of that sort once and was told they had about 2000 acres altho I can't say for sure how many was in the area I hunted. I know we sure walked up and down a lot of TN hills. I saw one hog during that time and it ran away without me getting a shot when the guide slipped and scared it. I really don't think he wanted me to get a shot as I was working my way slowly down and around to get an angle on the hog they said stayed under an over hang regularly. I kinda think it was one they liked to take folks to after a hard morning of hill climbing to run it out.

That afternoon we went back and turned the dogs loose and within ten minutes two of us had hogs on the ground. It took the rest of the afternoon with dogs to get one for the third hunter.

Now I kinda suspect those guides knew where more hogs hung out and could have gotten me onto one without the dogs had they really wanted to but I think they preferred doing it with dogs and didn't really want anyone to shoot a hog without the dogs.

The fence wasn't exactly hog proof on this place as I saw places it was down but it was hog proof enough I guess. They trapped hogs on the adjoining National Forest land to release into their enclosure and I did see a few of their traps on the way back that morning as we walked along a road that paralleled the fence in that area as a short cut back to where we had parked that morning.

For sure that was fair chase enough for me tho as just getting one without the dogs seemed not exactly do able but I suspect was made harder intentionally by the guides so they could justify using the dogs.

[NONYA]

If its behind a fence it cant jump its not free range AKA not fair chase.

[beemanbeme]

To begin with the Russian Boars are exotics that were imported and the mixes that they are passing off as Russians are just feral hogs gone wild. Also, thank goodness they're fenced as they are the most destructive s.o.b.s around.  They not only eat the same forage as the deer, they'll eat the deer given the chance.
I don't know about the Mule deer but if you do a study on the eastern White Tail, I think you would be surprised at just how small his range can be.  Something like a sq mile if memory serves me.  Here in WV, I would imagine it would be less. The WT deer has been very successful in his urbanization; hiding in small coves of trees and munching away on home owners lawns and shrubs by night.  I think the real danger isn't so much high fences but urban sprawl preventing one from having a safe place in which to hunt.
There have been numerous studies where deer were put in small enclosures and allowed to acclimate. Then spotters were put in the enclosures to "find" the deer. Often it would be days before the spotters would see the first deer.  

[jcn59]

Nonya,

Is it "fair chase" if  bait keeps the deer "in" rather than a high fence? 

Like in Wisconsin, during the 2007 deer seasons, the #1 hunting violation is illegal baiting.  Is it fair chase or free-ranging when you use illegal methods to keep deer on your (private) property?

[NONYA]

IMO if its legal and its not behind a highfence its fairchase,we cant bait anything in MT but if we could I would surly use bait on bears,it would make age/sex selection so much easier,as it is now you better take the first bear without cubs you see because you probably wont see another all season.I have never heard of a baiting violation being prosecuted around here,with all the agriculture we have its not that necessary.I have heard of ranchers being prosecuted for feeding game during bad winters without F&G permission.

[IOWA DON]

My parents always had some chickens which lived in the barn. They were fairly wild and athletic and could fly up and nest out of reach of predators. They ran around the farmyard and ate corn kernels fallen out of the corn cribs, insects and whatever. My dad could only catch them at night using a flashlight. He would chop off their heads the next morning.  They were tough so my mother would use them only for soup. When I was about 11 or 12 years old and my brother a year older, my parents let us have some fun harvesting those chickens. We got to head-shoot them with a .22 rifle. They were not as wild as a pheasant, but after shooting the first one, the second, third and fourth were more difficult to get. Some folks may have thought shooting chickens was unsporting, but to us it was real hunting. I wish my grandsons could have the same experience.

[NONYA]

Barnyard cats are some of the hardest to kill critters there are,after you kill a few the rest get REAL smart real quick.

[beemanbeme]

Whether it's an old homestead gone back that has a couple of apple trees or a stand of oaks or a corn feeder set up in the woods or a "feed plot" plowed out.  What is baiting; what is illegal baiting?  How big does the area have to be before it's not considered fenced?  This subject can be rolled around forever without an answer. 
Folks back east can't conceive of the vast distances that must be covered when you hunt the western pairies.  Westerners can't imagine what trying to kick a WT out of 100 acres of West Virginia is like. Or hearing a deer that is within 20 yards of you in the Mississippi bottoms and not being able to see him. 
It's all different and there is no one answer fits all. 

[corbanzo]

And freerange doesn't always have to do with fences.  I am in total agreement with nonya, that if there is a any fence that cannot be jumped, it is NOT free range, in any case.  You want a fence to keep in farm animals, that is great, then put in a good horse pen, and some good cow fences.  Deer will not go in the horse pen, and can jump any cow fence out there. 

The other things is people who plant food, water, and bedding areas for the deer.  If it is like deer paradise, then the deer are going to go there.  It is in their nature to go to the places where the most plentiful environment exists.  So if you have a treestand over a place that can sustain 100 deer year round,  because of the food and water and bedding source which is man-made, then that is definitely not free range.  The deer are ONLY there because of what the man has put there.  And if that source of nutrients and such keeps the deer from going too far away... which means that landowner can keep there deer within the vicinity of his property without fences, then what is the difference fence or not?  Of course he can screw it up with too much hunting pressure...  but you get my point.

If it is a wild animal, with no fences, that has to forage from natural food sources, then that is a free range animal.  Now one thing that I don't mind that humans do is make water tanks.  Because though these do draw animals, they don't keep them there for exended periods of time, and also, they can help to sustain animal populations in case of a drought.  Just make sure there are enough of them, and they are spread out enough to help more than a small population in one area if they are actually for deer.  Cow tanks not included in this arguement...  cause I know that most of them are for this purpose.

Up in Alaska none of this really works, cause animals have enough food, bedding, and water to get by.  Bear baiting being the only one that really does work... but only a few bears may frequent a station in a given season.  Not like I've seen a bunch of deer on a feeding patch on the TV shows...

[SDS-GEN]

Corbanzo, I hope that was a joke about the whole food plot/cover thing.  Its OK to hunt over a man-made water hole but not a man made food plot?  What's the difference?
   I plant food for the deer, cut down "junk" trees to encourage cover to grow up, and hunt my ground as carefully as possible.  That doesn't mean I have big bucks living on my place year round.  That doesn't mean the neighbor won't kill a big buck on his place that was on my place the hour before.  Fact is, in this part of the country, you can kill a big whitetail buck just about anywhere regardless of cover or food (which is plentiful everywhere in the form of field crops and alfalfa).  So if a farmer plants a field of alfalfa and then hunts over it, is the animal he kills there a free ranging animal?  If someone calls a forester and sells a bunch of trees on his place, then a few years later kills a deer in the thick brush that has grown up since is that not a free ranging animal?

[jcn59]

I think one of the differences is when you create an (artificial) environment, then acclimate the animal to the safety of this place where all his physical needs are met, then one (opening) day greet him with a bullet.    It's all about attracting deer to a controlled environment so it is easier to kill.  And what about "fair chase"?   Is that when anyone can hunt the deer, or just you? Yes, it is alot of "work" to set up your property to "hold" deer, but that doesn't make it hunting, does it?

It's like killing a barnyard chicken in some ways.   You meet all that chicken's needs so that she hangs around the barnyard, and one day go out and kill her.  Is that "hunting"?

[NONYA]

Not in my book.Its just like killing livestock,i dont see the draw,I thinks its a result of lazy,greedy people who will do whatever it takes to kill big deer,unless of course it requires working your ass off in the hills and possibly not killing anything at all.I dont even watch the hunting shows on these farms,they are all alike,no dont shoot that one,hes 3 years 5 days and 4 hours old,you only paid for a 4x4 anyways...well go over to the management pen and see what happens....

[SDS-GEN]

It may not be considered "fair chase" to some, but that doesn't mean the animals can't go wherever they want making them "free ranging".  Besides this isn't the west, this is the midwest, you are more likely to be hunting 50 acres than of 50,000, in that case you do everything you can to bring the deer onto your piece of property.  These are the same arguments that make bear baiting and hound hunting illegal.  We aren't talking about letting an animal out of a pen and shooting it here.  We are talking about attracting a wild animal onto your property so you have a chance at it. 

For the record I have never even seen a big buck on one of my food plots during hunting season.  I know they're eating at it, but just because you are feeding them doesn't make them stupid.  They get big by being smart enough not to come out and eat during daylight. 

Honestly guys, you make it sound like all you have to do is plant a little clover, dig a water hole and push up a couple of briars to kill big deer.  I would love to roam over a few mountain drainages to find a big deer to kill, it just doesn't work like that around here.  Consider the limitations, gun season lasts 7 days (10 if you can get a muzzleloader tag too)  and you are limited to slug guns, hand guns with straight walled cartridges or muzzle loaders.  Those thickets that the deer love to bed in after the first shots of opening morning are  mostly multi-flora rose, blackberry, raspberry and gooseberry, its almost impossible to sneak through, and you always come out the other side with thorns in your hands.  I've missed more than one deer because an arrow or bullet was deflected by said brush.  I only have 41 acres to hunt, so you bet I do a bunch of stuff to make it attractive to deer.  I can, and do, walk out my back door to hunt, I usually see a couple of big deer every year, I don't put one on the wall every year.

I've hunted out west in the mountains and on the prairies a few times, its a completely different way of hunting, for you doubters who live out west try this next time you go hunting.  Pick a 40 acre parcel on your map and don't set foot outside of it, don't shoot outside of it.  How successful would you be?  Now try hunting that same 40 acres all year, never setting foot outside of it to hunt.  Now make sure that that parcel is within 1/4 mile of a road, and that it has a few houses not too far away from it.  Wouldn't you do something to give you a better chance of killing an animal?

[jcn59]

I'm not sitting in judgment of the various ways people hunt, just pointing out the differences for discussion purposes.  My own preference is to go where the deer go, and I can't do that on the constraints of private land. 

If I can't find a deer where I am, I go where they are.   I call it hunting.

Some people prefer to stay where they are, and bait the deer in.   It doesn't offend me, & I hope this doesn't offend them,  but if this is what they want to do, and if it's legal, then why not?

[SDS-GEN]

I would love to be able to travel the countryside looking for deer, there just isn't that kind of room around here. 

I would have to concede that after watching a couple of those "famous hunters" on TV the hunt seems, and may be, canned.  Here's how they usually go. 

Opening shot, a lush, well groomed clover field, our "hunter" in the stand turns to the camera and speaks.  "Here we are in Iowa" (Illinois, Kansas, where-ever) "  We're huntin with so-and-so outfitters" (heck I'm huntin here for free might as well give em a little free advertising).  "I'm hunting over a field of Royal Bio-smart clover, man this stuff brings in the deer" (Keep them royalty checks coming).  Close up of the brand new Matthews bow and the new high end bino the guy is using - $$CHA_CHING$$ more kick backs coming in.  "Here comes a big buck".  Sure enough here comes buckzilla, unsuspecting, on a route the outfitter has watched him take for weeks.  The shot, the hit, the deer runs off.  Back to the shooter,  he's pumped, he's exited, "What a great hunt, the outfitter has been watching that deer and told us it would come through here.  Lets go take a look at him."  The deer is big, the hunter starts talking about all the products that made him successful, the scent lock suit, the treestand, the arrows and broadheads, anything that will make him a few dollars.  You know he's laughing all the way to the bank, because anything he actually purchased is a write-off.

To the whole thing, I say (yawn) boring.

That deer is certainly a product of his environment, but cover and food did not make that deer feel safe.  You guys are missing something, that deer felt zero hunting pressure.  The outfitters tie up thousands of acres and hunt it very lightly and carefully.
I've seen the same scenario play out on western hunts.  The hunter books a hunt on a private ranch and has the guide bugling in giant elk at every turn.  I hunt public land that has similar habitat and food, but because of HUNTING PRESSURE bulls are hard to come by. 

The reality of whitetail hunting is that there are guys on almost every farm, around here that amounts to a hunter every 60 or so huntable acres.  That is a lot of hunting pressure and  it make the deer nervous and smart.  They are far more difficult to hunt in reality than they are on some animal "snuff" film where animals are whored out for profit, you guys should know that.

[jcn59]

I'm fortunate to have thousands of acres of public land to hunt.  It's legal to bait here but I don't have to in order to kill several freezer deer each year, so I don't.  I don't hunt horns; I've noticed the deer just throw theirs away at the end of the year anyways. 

It must be an endless race trying to out-do your neighbor with food-plots, etc. in order to keep the few deer around on your 40, and not his. They can't be both places at the same time, can they?   I'm glad I have a choice.  Good luck!

I've hunted deer on private plots as well as large tracts of public land.  I know it's not like the T-V killing fields.

[beemanbeme]

Guys, it's no more fair to compare ANY kind of hunting with a "hunting" show than it is to compare real fishing with a "fishing" show.  Using what they do on a hunting show to prove your point only proves that you know very little about hunting of any sort.  Those shows are produced for the wannabe great white hunters that live in NYC.   

[corbanzo]

I won't say that I know a lot about food plots.  Cause I don't.  I have never once in my life seen a food plot.  Not one time.  We have a garden.  We use fences to keep animals out of it.

But I have seen pictures and videos where animals are habituated to eating from a certain food plot, because the people know that they have the prefered food for that animal. 

That isn't free range.  The ONLY reason they are on the food plot, is because man put it there. 


As for water tanks.

I lived in Arizona for a little while, and there, they had water tanks for the cows.  The deer and elk would also use the water tanks. so people would hunt those water tanks.  There were all over the place, not just in one area, so people couldn't pick out a certain area where they knew the animals were going to be because of the tanks. 

Without the water tanks, the livestock would die, especially during drought, and I'm sure that deer and elk populations would also be affected.  The wild animals don't become habituated to certain tanks, especially when there are easily a couple thousand in northern arizona alone. 


If you have a year round food plot where the deer come to feed, that changes their behavior, they come there, and the shooters knows they will be there. 

[PartsMan]

The problem I have with baiting and food plots is that hunting seasons are made to control the population.
Here locally the deer season is to keep the deer population low.
What good is a hunter doing if he feeds the whole forest for 2 months and then shoots one deer.

The state is changing regs every year practically begging us to shoot does.
Most are having twins yearly.

[454Puma]

The biggest problem I see is that some folks think that just because they make food plots/ and feeders and then High fence there property then that makes the deer or what ever there's. It doesn't -wild animal are the property of everyone! So yea I hate High Fence-feeding and food plots!!

[corbanzo]

My brother in connecticut has high fences around his yard.  The keep the damn deer OUT so they WONT eat all his plants!!